Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

Discuss Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT at the Men's Health Forum; Dr. Scally, is your approach to PCT - the one used as the basis for William Llewellyn's PCT material in ...

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  #1  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:20 PM
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Default Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

Dr. Scally, is your approach to PCT - the one used as the basis for William Llewellyn's PCT material in his 9th Edition of Anabolics - still the same?

I have seen so much contradictory advise on the internet; 2500IU of HCG every other day is atypical of the advice you customarily read. Swale (who is a doctor with experience) recommends a different approach.

I am impressed by your knowledge and active review of emerging research. What is your position now on PCT?
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  #2  
Old 08-02-2010, 01:41 PM
Michael Scally MD's Avatar
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taoseeker View Post
Dr. Scally, is your approach to PCT - the one used as the basis for William Llewellyn's PCT material in his 9th Edition of Anabolics - still the same?

I have seen so much contradictory advise on the internet; 2500IU of HCG every other day is atypical of the advice you customarily read. Swale (who is a doctor with experience) recommends a different approach.

I am impressed by your knowledge and active review of emerging research. What is your position now on PCT?

I recommend using the "Search" tool. There is ample material posted.
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  #3  
Old 08-02-2010, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

he just copied what the bodybuilders were doing, it was not his own. bodybuilders are at the forefront with their bodies.
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Old 08-02-2010, 02:07 PM
Michael Scally MD's Avatar
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

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Originally Posted by musulman View Post
he just copied what the bodybuilders were doing, it was not his own. bodybuilders are at the forefront with their bodies.

Excuse me? It is clear you do not know of what you speak.
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  #5  
Old 08-02-2010, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by musulman View Post
he just copied what the bodybuilders were doing, it was not his own. bodybuilders are at the forefront with their bodies.
Musulman has a history on here and Crisler's board of making the most ludicrous statements i have seen. The other day on that board he blamed a guy's blood pressure problems on being possesed by demon's. No, I am not making this up.
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  #6  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taoseeker View Post
Dr. Scally, is your approach to PCT - the one used as the basis for William Llewellyn's PCT material in his 9th Edition of Anabolics - still the same?

I have seen so much contradictory advise on the internet; 2500IU of HCG every other day is atypical of the advice you customarily read. Swale (who is a doctor with experience) recommends a different approach.

I am impressed by your knowledge and active review of emerging research. What is your position now on PCT?
Here is some info from some of Dr. Scally's recent posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scally MD
The hCG use can be during cycle, nearing the end of cycle, or at the conclusion of cycle. Confusing? The most important part is the timing for the hCG administration. For example, TC/TE 500 mg/week for 12 weeks will provide a serum testosterone level upon the last injection somewhere around 7,000 ng/dL. The PCT must consider the TC/TE half-life. From 7,000 ng/dL, it will be about 4 weeks until the HPTA attempts to restart (ideally/theoretically). Thus, the SERMs should not begin until this point, although I do include them earlier to decrease the negative feedback of the hCG and E2.


I prefer 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration. I do think that it aids it bringing the testes back online. However, this does not mean to stop hCG after stopping AAS. One must have a sense of the testes response to hCG. Also, from the posts I have read, the HPTA is not in an environment for functioning after AAS administration. The half-lives of the AAS must be taken into consideration.

The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of hCG. hCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of testis and secondarily decreases the production and level of the gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the hCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.

This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from the hCG. Demonstration of HPTA functionality is by an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed the hCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an hCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure.

In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with hCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully to the first half there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.

The second phase of the HPTA protocol, clomiphene and tamoxifen, examines the ability of the hypothalamo-pituitary to respond to stimulation by producing LH levels within the normal reference range.

Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience.

Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administration produces an elevation of LH and secondarily gonadal sex hormones. The administration leads to an appropriate rise in the levels of LH, suggesting that the negative feedback control on the hypothalamus is intact and that the storage and release of gonadotropins by the pituitary is normal. If there was a successful stimulation of testicular T levels by hCG but an inadequate or no response in LH production than the patient has hypogonadotropic, secondary, hypogonadism.

In the simplest terms, the second half of the protocol is to determine hypothalamo-pituitary production and reserve with clomiphene and tamoxifen. The physiological type of hypogonadism, hypogonadotropic or secondary, is characterized by abnormal low or low normal gonadotropin (LH) production in response to clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. In the functional type of hypogonadism, the ability to stimulate is present.

Further, in my experience, an inadequate gonadotropin response is not reason for giving up on HPTA restoration. As I have said, discontinuing on a 12-18 month basis is still advocated. I have had success by this regimen.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/675440-post39.html
Recent changes to POWER PCT program
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scally MD
I extend the hCG duration by using 2,000 IU, now 10 shots total. The tamoxifen is 20 MG PO BID.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/674707-post10.html
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  #7  
Old 08-02-2010, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

I spent about 45 minutes searching various combinations of words related to PCT, HCG, HCG on PCT, Dr. Scally (which go no search results) and I came up with an equally confusing picture of how much HCG to use on what schedule. The first quote is a response you made on one thread.

The second quote corroborates your approach but with some latitude for confusion. If you do a search, you find that most of the people on this site are confused and each has a "credible" source to support their conclusions.

The third quote is typical of the contradictory opinions held on this board.

I guess I will go with 2000 IU ever other day for 16 days. Hopefully I will be close to the mark.


"Let us know the TT from the hCG. [BTW: There are a total of 10 injections with hCG 2,000 IU, but I doubt it matters much.] "


ABSTRACT – THE ENDOCRINE SOCIETY 2001
ACCEPTED SPONSOR – J.D.Wilson, M.D.
ANDROGEN INDUCED HYPOGONADOTROPHIC HYPOGONADISM:
TREATMENT PROTOCOL INVOLVING COMBINED DRUG THERAPY
Scally, MC and Hodge, AH
Houston, TX

"Upon diagnosis, patients were administered the following agents: (a) human chorionic gonadotropin, (2000-2500 IU/QODx16d); (b) clomiphene citrate (50mg POBIDx30d); and (c) tamoxifen (20mg
POQDx45d)."

"If you go to Dr. John's site All Things Male - Center for Men's Health and read his HCG update he says no man should do more then 500 IU's a day. Best to do 100 IU's to play it safe. Or do 500 IU's 3 x's / week."
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  #8  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

Dr. Scally

You once said that PCT Protocol was for even the worst case scenarios, like heavy long-term AAS user.

Now, if someone administrated a 500-600mg/12-20 weeks, Test E or Cip, and took the suggested 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration.

Do you think that person would still need the 2000ui HCG EOD for 10 days to proper stimulate the testicular production? Or lowering the dosage to 1000ui HCG EOD for 10 day would be enough?
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  #9  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:10 PM
Michael Scally MD's Avatar
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Souza View Post
Dr. Scally

You once said that PCT Protocol was for even the worst case scenarios, like heavy long-term AAS user.

Now, if someone administrated a 500-600mg/12-20 weeks, Test E or Cip, and took the suggested 500 IU SC Q3D throughout the AAS administration.

Do you think that person would still need the 2000ui HCG EOD for 10 days to proper stimulate the testicular production? Or lowering the dosage to 1000ui HCG EOD for 10 day would be enough?

Sounds good, but lab confirmation is a must! All should be reminded that every patient was followed closely with changes made as needed.
__________________
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Email for free copy (pdf), "Anabolic Steroids - A Question of Muscle: Human Subject Abuses in Anabolic Steroid Research."

Email - [email protected]
Twitter - https://twitter.com/#!/michaelscally
Blog - http://michaelscally.blogspot.com/
FaceBook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000559797692
Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)/ Androgen Induced Hypogonadism (AIH) - https://www.facebook.com/groups/609337655745437/
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  #10  
Old 08-02-2010, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Dr. Scally's Approach to PCT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millard Baker View Post
Here is some info from some of Dr. Scally's recent posts:



Recent changes to POWER PCT program
Thanks Millard, that tells me what I need to know. I assume he is saying 2000IU EOD for a total of 20 days.
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