ratio's : E2/T and DHT/T

SWALE · #41 01-03-2006, 03:32 PM

That's a definition, not the underlying concept.

pmgamer18 · #42 01-03-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWALE

We now know that serum DHT levels are not a reliable "biomarker" of true DHT activity.

Can anyone take a minute and explain the concept of "biomarker" to the group?

Biomarker: A biochemical feature or facet that can be used to measure the progress of disease or the effects of treatment.

chap · #43 01-04-2006, 03:53 AM

I have a question, I am curious if the ratios that are being touted are less or more forgiving as free testosterone levels rise? In other words if your free testosterone reaches the top of the normal range charts, would you see better libido in a greater range of ratio levels?

I am theorizing that you will, but I would like to hear others feedback on this.

SWALE · #44 01-04-2006, 08:49 AM

The idea behind use of a "biomarker" is that assay of a test matrix, be it blood, saliva, urine (etc) will correlate (in a positive or negative manner) with a given clinical response.

For instance, serum levels of DHT, to be useful in our endeavors here, would have to equate with the androgenic state of the guy the blood came from. Unfortunately, there is often a mismatch between serum levels and tissue levels (which is where the rubber hits the road).

What are we left with? The results of serum DHT levels which make me think "that's interesting". IOW, it is just another piece of the puzzle.

This is part and parcel of why thee ratios have no use, IMPO, as a treatment goal.

And this is also why we cannot draw valid estrogen assay while on a SERM-class drug.

I hope this explanation helps.

Axl · #45 01-04-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWALE

The idea behind use of a "biomarker" is that assay of a test matrix, be it blood, saliva, urine (etc) will correlate (in a positive or negative manner) with a given clinical response.

For instance, serum levels of DHT, to be useful in our endeavors here, would have to equate with the androgenic state of the guy the blood came from. Unfortunately, there is often a mismatch between serum levels and tissue levels (which is where the rubber hits the road).

What are we left with? The results of serum DHT levels which make me think "that's interesting". IOW, it is just another piece of the puzzle.

This is part and parcel of why thee ratios have no use, IMPO, as a treatment goal.

And this is also why we cannot draw valid estrogen assay while on a SERM-class drug.

I hope this explanation helps.

This is becoming a real educational link, very interesting!

OK, I think I got it (but correct me if I'm wrong): I am on 250 mg T enanthate every 10 days for 7 months now. My doc has added 0,25 mg Adex every 3 days because my E2 was at 37 pg/ml. At this point, we did some bloodwork (still no virilisation occured in the past 7 months).

Total T: 417 ng/dl (280 - 1100)
LH: <0,2 IU/l (1,1 - 8,8)
E2: <20 ng/l (0-44) (morning wood still OK)
Test binding globuline: 8 nmol/l (13-71)
Free T calculated: 136,84 pg/ml (50-280)
Androstanediolgluceronide 31,8 ng/dl (3,4-22)

If we compare these biomarkers to my androgenic state, one should conclude that my virilisation should be 'on its way': the high value of androstanediol gluceronide shows that DHT is getting metabolised in my cells.
I'm almost doing as much T as a beginner's cycle of AAS. But my total T is only at 417 ng/dl.

So where does all the Testosterone that I inject go to??? Can it get flushed out of my system?? And what is preventing the virilisation process? IMHO it can't be a shortage in the number of androgen receptors, because the androstanedionegluceronide is abundant? So what other conclusion is there to make?

I know these are tough questions, but HEY: the guys on this forum are the top guns of HRT!

pmgamer18 · #46 01-04-2006, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axl

This is becoming a real educational link, very interesting!

OK, I think I got it (but correct me if I'm wrong): I am on 250 mg T enanthate every 10 days for 7 months now. My doc has added 0,25 mg Adex every 3 days because my E2 was at 37 pg/ml. At this point, we did some bloodwork (still no virilisation occured in the past 7 months).

Total T: 417 ng/dl (280 - 1100)
LH: <0,2 IU/l (1,1 - 8,8)
E2: <20 ng/l (0-44) (morning wood still OK)
Test binding globuline: 8 nmol/l (13-71)
Free T calculated: 136,84 pg/ml (50-280)
Androstanediolgluceronide 31,8 ng/dl (3,4-22)

If we compare these biomarkers to my androgenic state, one should conclude that my virilisation should be 'on its way': the high value of androstanediol gluceronide shows that DHT is getting metabolised in my cells.
I'm almost doing as much T as a beginner's cycle of AAS. But my total T is only at 417 ng/dl.

So where does all the Testosterone that I inject go to??? Can it get flushed out of my system?? And what is preventing the virilisation process? IMHO it can't be a shortage in the number of androgen receptors, because the androstanedionegluceronide is abundant? So what other conclusion is there to make?

I know these are tough questions, but HEY: the guys on this forum are the top guns of HRT!

I was on high dose's like this and my levels were down like this. For me it was stress of an infection, or stress of being sick and not being able to work I guess what I am trying to say is if your sick with a low infection or stressed out it eats up your T meds. At least this is why I was on so much T and had a low level. I was on 15g of Testim and getting a shot of 200 mgs of depo T and not going up over 650 but my labs range goes up to over 1500 and I do best at 800 to 1000 using my labs range.

1cc · #47 01-04-2006, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axl

So where does all the Testosterone that I inject go to???

What day before your next shot were these labs taken?

SPE · #48 01-04-2006, 03:24 PM

I believe your total t is low because of the fact that you are still doing your injections every 10 days. If you were to switch to a comparable dosage every 7 days and test the day before your shot, I'd expect that number to be a good deal higher.