Hcg q's???

[bodybuilder2012]

I am about to run a teste cycle with dbol 4 wk kickstart. should this be frontloaded??? Anyways I have been looking into hcg alot and it seems like a good addition to reduce recovery time and to maintain gains which is the whole point. Also reduces sides and possible harmful effects on body. Seems dose to be used is 250 iu every other day by skin injection.Sound right? Question is what ais and pct would I be looking at with this. Since levels are more normal than without hcg what kind of ai protection would i run and pct??? Also looking into letro and cutting nolva and adex due to etro dropping estrogen so much I would no longer need nolva/adex coreect? pct would be hcg into one week of pct and clomid as well as letro for one montha nd thats it??? I have cycle figured out but antis and pct Im tweeking due to the new addition of hcg. Thank alot

[bodybuilder2012]

Seems to me by research that letro is bad for cholesterol while nolva and raise good cholesterol and do the same job. so if im not cutting for contest and need the dry ripped look is it safe to just use the nolva and adex clomid combo? not sure how the hcg affects all of this ???CONFUSED!!!!

[mands]

I would run your hcg during cycle at 250 iu's twice a week with your Nolv. I would discontinue your hcg about two weeks after your last injection of Test. I would then start my PCT. I would use Clomid and Nolvadex for at least 4 weeks.

Make sure you get labs done before cycle and after PCT to see how things compare. If you can get them while on cycle that would be great as well. This way you can check your Test, Free Test, Estrogen levels, etc. etc. this can determine if you need to adjust anything during cycle.

mands

[Dr JIM]

There were no differences in the "cardiovascular event rate" compared to placebo in those studies which specifically evaluated the effects of SERM's or AI's on serum lipids or cholesterol, and many of those patients (primarily postmenopausal breast CA patients) were being treated for months to years!
However since AAS also increase serum lipids and or cholesterol the combination may be adversly synergistic. Consequently, although Mand's suggestions are on spot, as always, I would suggest the addition of a "lipid panel" every 5 years and more frequently if abnormal.
Regards
Jim

[solo47]

Your cycle seems okay; I'm assuming about 30 Dbol ED (spread over at least two doses) and about 500 mg of Test e or cyp EW.

You don't say how long your cycle is — 10 weeks is usual but 12 is fine, too.

Mands is on the money, but I suggest you run an AI like arimidex (0.5 mg EOD) or aromasin (12.5 mg ED or 25 mg EOD) with this, instead of a SERM like tamoxifen. Begin your HCG in your third week – 250 iu 2x EW should be fine.

When your injections end (after 10 weeks?), raise your HCG to 500 iu 2x EW or even 1000 iu 2x EW if your nads have still shrunk (unlikely). Continue your AI. After two weeks, cease the HCG & the AI, and wait another week (though most on this forum think this is too long), making three weeks since your last inject. NOW begin your SERM protocol of tamoxifen or clomid or both for about 4 weeks. Then workout and WAIT for your Bloodwork to indicate normal testosterone levels. First check should be in about 6 to 8 weeks, but it's best to wait about 3 months before considering going on cycle again.

I'd avoid Letro altogether.

Bonne chance!

Solo

[Realgains]

Originally Posted by bodybuilder2012

Seems to me by research that letro is bad for cholesterol while nolva and raise good cholesterol and do the same job. so if im not cutting for contest and need the dry ripped look is it safe to just use the nolva and adex clomid combo? not sure how the hcg affects all of this ???CONFUSED!!!!

I've experimented on myself extensively...easy for me to get labs done lol.
I thought nolva while "on" may help my lipd profile....it doesn't do a damn thing.
I thought niacin at high dose would increase hdl(good cholesterol) while on....it didn't do a damn thing but did help a lot while "off".
AI's like letro can hammer estrogen pretty low but not at low dose.
I find that low dose letro raises T very well as it drops estrogen so well that many men can avoid TRT. High estrogen is bad news for men and results in female pattern fat distribution , low T ( estrogen is suppressive), mood problems and prostate issues to name a few. However, but you don't want estrogen dropping below low normal or it will mess with your hdl, mess with your joints, mess with your immune system a bit and kill your sex drive. Yes estrogen is needed for a sex drive in men.

HCG will raise T and thus estrogen via aromatization. Use low dose letro with it.


RG

[Dr JIM]

RG
Have you ever observed LH "suppression" thereby nullifying or significantly limiting endogenous testosterone production consequent to AI use? I ask because I have noticed this effect in older patients while on clomiphene citrate, yet not with anastrozole when used as treatment for hypogonadism and because my experience with letrozole is very limited.
Regards
Jim

[bodybuilder2012]

my cycle will be twelve weeks and yes it is 500 mg a week split between two shots. dbol will be four weeks at 40 mg a day. the research i have done pretty much across the board pin 40 mg as the best dose since 50 doesnt give all that much more but raises sided quite a bit. I want some type of bloat and watery muscle look fighter. I plan to run the hcg 250iu 2x a week from week three to two weeks after last shot and then should i stick to the day one 300 clomid and 20mg nolva and then day 2-30 100clomid and 20 njolva and then stop everything? are you suggesting it keep the adex at .25mg eod throughout entire cycle and pct as well before i get blood work done?? i originally had nolva and adex planned through entire cycle and pct but was confused on how the hcg would alter that because the hpta wont be so supressed now that i am using hcg. Thank alot guys. I really appreciate it. I am planning a huge year for gains and I'm redoing cycle diet and workout program to bust my butt and make it a life changing year.

Originally Posted by solo47

Your cycle seems okay; I'm assuming about 30 Dbol ED (spread over at least two doses) and about 500 mg of Test e or cyp EW.

You don't say how long your cycle is — 10 weeks is usual but 12 is fine, too.

Mands is on the money, but I suggest you run an AI like arimidex (0.5 mg EOD) or aromasin (12.5 mg ED or 25 mg EOD) with this, instead of a SERM like tamoxifen. Begin your HCG in your third week – 250 iu 2x EW should be fine.

When your injections end (after 10 weeks?), raise your HCG to 500 iu 2x EW or even 1000 iu 2x EW if your nads have still shrunk (unlikely). Continue your AI. After two weeks, cease the HCG & the AI, and wait another week (though most on this forum think this is too long), making three weeks since your last inject. NOW begin your SERM protocol of tamoxifen or clomid or both for about 4 weeks. Then workout and WAIT for your Bloodwork to indicate normal testosterone levels. First check should be in about 6 to 8 weeks, but it's best to wait about 3 months before considering going on cycle again.

I'd avoid Letro altogether.

Bonne chance!

Solo

[bodybuilder2012]

^^^^^^^ Also forgot!? If testes dont shrink then would I not up hcg. I read that if too much is used during pct it wont allow ph and stuff to normalize since test is gone it will actually harm recovery?? Thanks

[Realgains]

Originally Posted by Dr JIM

RG
Have you ever observed LH "suppression" thereby nullifying or significantly limiting endogenous testosterone production consequent to AI use? I ask because I have noticed this effect in older patients while on clomiphene citrate, yet not with anastrozole when used as treatment for hypogonadism and because my experience with letrozole is very limited.
Regards
Jim

No. I have had guys on low dose letro for years. .1-.36mg per day. I have them dissolve a 2.5 mg pill and then dose it daily in a syringe(after shaking the syringe) on an empty stomach and 30 minutes before eating in the morning. That's probably a bit anal because the half life is so long and you could simply take a quarter pill every other day for example, but I want to use as little as possible for the desired affect. I have nobody except heavy steroid users on TRT any more. I've got a 80 year old on .25mg per day with a T of 600ng/dl! He also takes an iu of growth daily and has done extremely well and had totally transformed his body and his life. E2 is watched of course and nobody is allowed to drop "too low". Sex drive drops off right away when too low for starters HDL starts to go to crap too.

I don't feel comfortable with long term SERM use....I think these drugs can be potentially toxic if used for long periods of time.

RG