yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

Discuss yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe! at the Steroid Forum; Originally Posted by solo47 For Millard & Bill. I have tried to inject oils through a 29 g and found ...

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  #31  
Old 09-12-2010, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

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Originally Posted by solo47 View Post
For Millard & Bill. I have tried to inject oils through a 29 g and found it next to impossible. I'm saying I could not do it w/o extreme thumb pressure over a ridiculously extended time period, and that made it tough to hold the needle steady. It may be that I just tired my thumb out or that I had extra thick oil, but, as Buddy said, the 25 g was as high as I could reasonably go — and that took way too fucking long.

Plus 1/2" is too short to make sure all the oil stays in one's muscle (for anywhere but one's rib cage, pecs, or abs).

23g & 1.5" deep into the tissue makes for a happy BB who never wastes his product.

This is all my opinion, of course, but it is an experienced opinion.

Solo
Could not agree more.

My opinion is not based on as much experience as solo's is, but we have still certainly come to the same conclusion. I find BR's time-scale of 30sec MUCH more applicable to the use of a 25g needle. And to be honest, 30sec would almost be a record time if I were to use a 25g. Even the gear that I've had which is suspended in EO, takes a good 30sec to push through a 25g.

I will admit, I have never tried to use a 29g, but I have used 22's and the jump between the pressure required to push 1cc through a 22 compared to a 25, causes me to shudder when I think of the time necessary to push 1cc through a 29. I can only imagine
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  #32  
Old 09-13-2010, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

The problem is, your imagination is incorrect.

Dan Duchaine had the same problem. He rejected the experience-based fact that it is just as easy to push through a 29 gauge as a 25 -- because he had this model in his mind that that could not be so -- and he did not understand the hydraulic principles involved. I had only one conversation with him on this but it was fruitless.

So, you're not alone in finding it impossible to believe.

However, since apparently you're not accepting the experience based fact and don't seem interested in seeing for yourself, here's the hydraulics explanation:

The pressure required at the plunger is the product of the pressure of the fluid and the area of the plunger.

The 29 gauge has a far smaller plunger area than does the 25 gauge.

The result is, that while your view that a higher oil pressure is required for any given flow rate is quite correct, the smaller plunger gives that higher oil pressure without any more plunger pressure (force of the thumb) being required.
Because the higher oil pressure is acting against a smaller plunger area, thus giving no greater resistive force.

You know, it was many, many centuries after Aristotle figured in his head that big rocks HAD to drop faster than smaller rocks, because that was just logical after all, before anyone got the idea to actually try it to see what was right. So there is a human prejudice to stick with models-in-the-head even when that should not be done, due both to the theory being wrong and the facts being different.

It really is not valid to stick with what "seems" to be right according to a model in the head when there is both good reason why it is not so and there is a vast base of experience showing that it's not so.

It doesn't take more thumb pressure to use a 29 gauge than a 25.

Rather than trying to imagine it, actually trying it would be the way to know.
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  #33  
Old 09-13-2010, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

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Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
Rather than trying to imagine it, actually trying it would be the way to know.
And rather than retorting like a child, actually responding in a manner helpful to the forum would be ideal. I too have tried to draw thru a 29g slin with no avail. Maybe the viscosity of my gear is too high, maybe i'm doing it wrong.
Bill, is there a certain way that you draw with a slin pin that differs from larger guages? I have heard that some remove the plunger and fill the barrel using another syringe...your thought on this method? I, and I'm sure may others, would rather use a slin pin any day over a larger pin. Apparently we are not going about the injection correctly. Your insight would be appreciated.

MAYO
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  #34  
Old 09-13-2010, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

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Originally Posted by MAYO View Post
Bill, is there a certain way that you draw with a slin pin that differs from larger guages? I have heard that some remove the plunger and fill the barrel using another syringe...your thought on this method? I, and I'm sure may others, would rather use a slin pin any day over a larger pin. Apparently we are not going about the injection correctly. Your insight would be appreciated.

MAYO
You don't draw with the slin pin. You backload it as you described.
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  #35  
Old 09-13-2010, 05:19 AM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

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Originally Posted by Reinheart View Post
In all the medical schools of the world they teach them to use 21 to 23g for IM injections and they say the larger the muscle group and the deeper the needle goes in, the better. I suspect there has to be some reasoning behind this...
Sometimes the procedures used are what is most convenient and quickest method (with lowest margin of error) for doctors NOT what is optimal for the patient.

This is not to say that bodybuilders should not follow standard procedure because it often involves the lowest risk. Just because it can be done differently doesn't always mean it should be done differently by most people. However, if someone knows what they are doing, sometimes there are better ways.
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  #36  
Old 09-13-2010, 11:07 AM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

never thought this would have created so much controversy......if you have trouble loading a 29 gauge... just rig up some way to suspend your vial upside down....insert the needle... pull the plunger back and go do something else while it loads. Now some of you will say u don't have the time... well that is you... but I want the least amount of muscle damage from my injections...as I inject every other day.....rotating many spots so I don't build up scar tissue. And you should inject slowly , that is the proper way...
As far as the medical profession recommending larger needles for everything... like someone mentioned it is a "do all" recommendation, accomodating all sizes of people. (meaning fat tubs of lard)
Thanks to Bill for the great explanations!
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  #37  
Old 09-13-2010, 11:25 AM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

As Millard said, drawing and injecting are two separate questions.

Above I was addressing the question of injecting being thought too difficult, to a post stating specifically that difficulty was being imagined due to how hard a 25 gauge was and therefore a 29 gauge would have to be even worse.

At that point it had already been said many times that in fact it is not hard, and so clearly testimony wasn't sufficient.

Replying that the only way to know is to try it is I think an accurate way to put it. It's unfortunate that anyone was offended and thought this was childlike, but that's an error of perception.

On the drawing: If one has the BD brand, and perhaps some other brands may work the same, one can do as AFG suggests. Namely, using the insulin syringe/needle to draw, waiting long enough to get a drop of oil to wet the plunger, then drawing back to the desired point. Friction will hold the plunger in place and one can leave the vial on its side and in a few minutes, the syringe will be filled.

More commonly, as Mayo mentioned, one draws with a larger gauge syringe and then backfills the insulin syringe (removing the plunger and adding into the barrel of the insulin syringe.)

It is not necessary to use a new larger-gauge syringe and needle each time when doing this: I swirl the needle in alcohol, recap it, and wrap the back end of the syringe with aluminum foil to keep dust from getting in.

I didn't understand that objection was to the difficulty of filling the syringe: I agree, that without using the backfilling method, it's very hard to draw with the insulin syringe.
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  #38  
Old 09-13-2010, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

Just to add, i've been using a 16mm 27g Pin for delts with no problems at all...

I suppose it seperates the people with strong, manly hands from the people with weak, frail hands
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  #39  
Old 09-13-2010, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

Well, I've been called a lot of names over the course of my life. And I have been known to be stubborn, but not ignorant. BR thank you so much, for bringing this down to my level. I certainly have enough mechanical knowledge to understand the hydraulic principles. And I don't know why there is even any debate on the topic. I can't believe I didn't realize the logic behind your concept without you breaking it down for me. I think, what really threw me off, was the difficulty of DRAWING through different gauges.

What are the practical advantages to using a 29g??? Less scar tissue obviously, is there less injection site soreness?? Also, do you feel as though you may be testing fate using such a thin pin? I would be worried of breaking one off inside my muscle. Has this ever happened to you?

Last edited by Stretch; 09-13-2010 at 02:36 PM.
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  #40  
Old 09-13-2010, 02:29 PM
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Default Re: yes, you can use a 29 gauge/'1/2" syringe!

I tried it today. I backloaded two insulin syringes and used a 27gx1/2" and injected half a cc of pharma grade testoviron in both of my triceps long heads.

Those two were by far the easiest and least painful injections i've ever had and pushing the plunger was extremely easy. A LOT easier than it is with a 21 or a 23g needle.

I am going to stick to 27g for my IM injections. I don't see why i have to stab my self anymore with a 21g or a 23g.

Thank you all for opening my eyes!
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