HM: IFG-1 … Dan you seem to be standing back on this one. Colgan thinks it will bring on the age of the superfreak, while you have only spoken of its use in fat reduction. We know GH never panned out as incredible as everyone wanted it to. Do you want to make sure it is the real deal before you give it your stamp of approval? We keep hearing every imaginable scenario ranging from “the stuff is fantastic” to “didn’t do anything for me.” Do you have any opinions on how it is best used? It was reported to work a lot better with GH in a study. Do you have any theories on how or what compounds (steroids, anticatabolics, insulin mimickers) could be used in a synergistic protocol for best results with IGF?
Dan: Well Colgan really calls it all the time, doesn’t he? (laughs) Because he’s always wrong – when Twinlabs changes their mind. Vanadyl sulfate is toxic but now that Twin is selling it, it’s not toxic any more! But anyway, enough about Colgan. You know the thing is … I’ve never seen any real IGF-1. All the stuff I’ve seen pictures of and read about is the lab cell culture which is doctored not to bind on the carrier proteins. So it would probably be wonderful. You sent me a couple of reports and I read some others and if you look at the amounts they were using, it was quite high actually. Because of a four hour half-life they were using it twice a day, at a calculated dosage of 18mg a day. That’s a very high amount. And these bodybuilders are taking 50 micrograms. And I find it hard to believe that 50 micrograms might do anything considering … God knows what they might have stacked on top of that. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think IGF will be terrific once it gets cheap enough to use. And you really want it to bind on the carrier proteins. You want it to last for the 4 hours. The cell culture stuff has a half life of 20 minutes, you don’t want that. It’s as short as growth hormone … you have to use the high amounts. Eventually someone will offer it either out of Russia or Australia. Of course you know, there were some side effects such as jaw pain and weird funky stuff. And it does work well with GH synergistically. They’re just the opposite of each other. IGF-1 would lower your blood sugar and GH does the opposite. Together it stabilizes it. So the worst thing you could do is to use IGF-1 and insulin at the same time, you would conk out. I think it has a lot of potential. The only problem with all that stuff … if you remember back to the geriatrics using GH, when they stopped using GH, within a few weeks all the benefits ceased. At least when you stop steroids, it takes a year or more for all those gains to completely disappear. And I’m afraid for the high expense of IGF-1, that when you go off it, I wonder how long it will last.
HM: Yeah, a couple people told us they used it, and they said how awesome it worked and they weren’t using anything else.
Dan: Over the phone…?
Dan: Oh, yeah you know how that goes – “I’m 190 and ripped” and you see them in real life and it’s a fat piece of shit. (We are all laughing hard.) It’s like on the Internet, everybody is big and strong and ripped – on the computer and you meet them in real life and they are little dorks!
HM: (Laughing) Hypothetically, if you were going to use IGF-1, would you use it with…?
Dan: Oh yeah, steroids, GH, you would want to use it all for a synergistic effect. But definitely with growth hormone, all the studies say it’s not only additive … put it this way … if you could get a ½ pound gain from IGF-1, and a ½ pound gain from growth hormone – if you put them together you wouldn’t get just one pound, you would get much more, they are synergistic with the two added together … so yeah, go for it.
HM: Anything on the amounts of growth hormone?
Dan: Frankly, I think, nobody has used enough growth hormone because of the cost. The only guy I know of, the rumors were that (top WBF guy) was using like 12 IU’s of GH a day. Every day. I don’t know if that’s true but that is pretty close to what someone should be using, for best results I would think. In the PDR, it’s pretty cut and dry in what you should be using. The Genetech is not as efficient as the Lilly. It’s microgram per kilogram – you can figure it out. It seems that a lot of bodybuilders are going low in dosage. In the early 80’s it was worse, the recommended dosage was 2 IU’s a week at $90 bucks a pop – like 2 IU’s would even do anything. And people were wondering why it didn’t work…
HM: Yeah, you might as well pound down some arginine. (joke)
Dan: I know the stunted growth children were taking it 3 times a week, but I don’t know why only 3 times a week. Why not every day? It seems logical to me that it should be everyday. It’s just like IGF-1 is supposed to be twice a day. And GH is even shorter acting so who knows.
HM: Maybe 4 times a day might do some good??!!
HM: Do you still feel Nolvadex can be put to good use – even though studies show it to decrease serum blood IGF levels in the body by 25%? Many have theorized that it lessens the muscle gains on a steroid cycle – do you agree?
Dan: Everyone said that even though they liked to use Nolvadex during dieting, they always found that during the off-season … they grew better without it. That was interesting. It might be the IGF-1. We somehow thought it was tied to estrogen but I don’t know why. It depends. Past a certain age … like I’m 43 … if you measured my growth hormone and IGF-1 at middle age it is not very large. Would reducing it 25% make a major difference when it is so low to begin with? Probably not. It depends. As you get older, estrogen is more important to avoid for a lot of reasons, you know … prostate cancer, this and that. But when you’re young, you could probably avoid Nolvadex. You know so many people have spent so much money on Nolvadex to combat gyno that they could have easily gotten the surgery for the same amount of money and cured the problem. Half of the people who go through puberty usually get some kind of gyno. They don’t necessarily remember it, but it happens. And if you had gyno as an adolescent, you are going to get it if you use steroids – unless you totally avoid all the things that would cause it. And I don’t know if Nolvadex will help those kind of people. I don’t know if it is a real preventative. Close to two bucks a tab – get the surgery.
HM: How do you feel about Clomid’s use as a prevention of gyno – overrated? Could a 2 on / 2 off program of Clomid be something in which gyno could be prevented in your opinion?
Dan: You know Teslac is an ideal antiestrogen but we could never find it out of the country, and we looked too. Clomid … inexpensive in Mexico but very expensive here. Everyone has done quite well with it for raising testosterone if you are young enough with 2 tabs a day. As far as an … they never approved it as an antiestrogen because it was more toxic than Nolvadex. Most people who use Clomid, they are not using it all year long. The problem is everyone’s using so much testosterone – not a little but a lot! Back in the 80’s we thought there was some kind of precision to anabolic use but now it is not quality but quantity…
HM: Have you had a chance to look at the other growth factors (EGF, fibroblast growth factor, nerve growth factor, TGF, etc.)… If so, do you feel any or all of these are interesting on a muscle-building standpoint?
Dan: Oh sure! There has been some research that the epidermal growth factor has been effective … but all the G.F.’s have been marketed at such a high price that people are unable to use high dosages. But who knows what’s going to happen when prices come down and people are on some higher dosages. At the higher dosages, who knows what will be the outcome.
HM: Have you heard or have any insight on the new fat hormone drug in development?
Dan: Leptin … a few years ago we were talking about brown fat and having the beta 3 receptors and I believe they figured out that leptin is one of the naturally occurring beta 3 agonists in the body. The interesting thing about beta 3 receptors is that there’s not many in the body, you got many more beta 2 receptors in the muscle. The beta 3’s are only in small areas. However the nice thing about leptin is you don’t need a lot and unlike clenbuterol, you don’t down regulate the receptors. So for bodybuilding, it might be pretty good. However, for most of the obese people who think they are going to need it, some research has shown that they (obese) have genetically damaged beta 3 receptors that don’t accept it. And many obese people have very high leptin levels already. The body is trying to compensate so it’s not going to help them much. But it will be good for athletes because – clenbuterol is good but it only lasts 2-3 weeks at a time unless you jack up the dosage sky-high. As I mentioned on an audiotape a while ago, there is another thermogenic compound that I’ll probably introduce at the end of the year. Even though I promised January 1. It is much more thermogenic than clenbuterol and doesn’t even involve those receptors at all. It is much better and cheaper. More dangerous though because if you take too much you don’t get sick … you die! Because you raise your body temp over 105 degrees and your cooked brain turns into poached eggs. So I have been hesitant introducing it or writing about it without some safeguards.
HM: To be blatantly honest with you, Dan, we have seen you come full circle on your diet theories. In your first book you recommended eating a lot and often. Now it seems you are approaching a nutrient density theory on diet. Low calories – high nutrients. Correct us if we are wrong. Even though nutrient density looks good on paper and looks like it will build the muscle desired, how come the guys (natural and unnatural) who really push the calories, really seem to be the ones putting on the greatest amount of muscle (and of course, extra bodyfat too)? i.e. … Yates, Sombaty versus Ray, Wheeler, etc. … Do you feel there is any possibility that the body can speed up with a more efficient anabolic effect with abundant calories – just as the metabolism slows down somewhat at deprivation of food? Couldn’t the body adapt somewhat to a tremendous muscle building overload effect with food if a huge amount of demand (brutal workouts) is there?
Dan: Well … I don’t think Yates and Sombaty get that fat actually. I must admit when I started out I wasn’t the smartest guy in the world back then. I just had a knack with the words back in the early 80’s. And I’m sure we were wrong on a lot of things. The thing is … there are a few individuals that can get up to 15-20% bodyfat, put on a lot of muscle and then be able to take it off. I have no problem getting that fat in off-season if they can prove to me they can get in shape. Obviously, like Rory Leidermeyer, he never got it right – he always fucked up. And most people who get that fat (15-20%) have trouble getting back down and even if they do, their vascularity and skin taughtness suffers.
HM: Do you feel it is a compromise though, not taking in enough food, with trying to maximize muscle mass?
Dan: You should always eat as much food as you can, but I think some people should spend the thirty bucks on calipers and keep the threshold of bodyfat at 12% or lower. Fifteen percent of bodyfat with a guy with a lot of muscle … he looks pretty fat. That’s a bodybuilder who really is a powerlifter with a gut. Twelve percent isn’t too sloppy and you can come down and up in bodyweight with some ease. But there are some people that can pull it off, but rarely have seen anyone going into a contest not fuck up on the way down.
HM: If you could pull it off, and eat a lot more food in the off-season, do you feel that you could gain more mass like that?
Dan: Sure, sure, but the secret is to keep it when you diet it off. First of let me say this. People lie. Vic Richards does not eat 15,000 calories. The guy pretty much can’t count, he’s so stupid. The guy wouldn’t be able to count up the boxes with a calculator if the boxes were in front of him so I doubt 15,000. Very few people can hit 7,000. Strydom hit 7,000 but he had a lot of support to do that. People think if you eat so many calories you must be hotter. That’s not true. An inch of fat all around the body will keep the heat in. If you have thin skin you are radiating heat out into the room so you can get away with taking in more calories.
HM: But let’s say you have two twins. One of the twins says I’m going to get as big as I can while the other twin wants to build muscle but keep lean. Do you think that the guy who is taking in the gross amount of calories to build big time muscle (when they measure him in a water tank) will have a lot more muscle than the twin who tried to keep his bodyfat to a minimum?
Dan: Yes. Yes, but when they both come down to 6% bodyfat it will be very close because of the dieting. I think the high calorie guy will have a slight advantage in muscle mass but what is his skin and vascularity going to be like? But I must tell you, most bodybuilders I know eat more than 3,000 unless they lie around all day. Even I eat close to 3,000 but I … well I ride my bike quite a bit now. Most of those pros, of course, hold water but a lot of that fat is held under their abdominal wall in their viscera. That’s not increase size of the gut from GH but a combination of high carbs, high insulin and high testosterone. All that fat in there is very sensitive to androgens especially DHT.
HM: Do you think they can ever get rid of that? The visceral fat?
Dan: They would lose a lot of muscle. Visceral fat is like the last fat to come off the body. Back in the old days when they weren’t using a lot of androgens, you didn’t have that. But now with everyone using so much testosterone, that gut is all over the place now. Pros, amateurs … you know.
HM: Wouldn’t clenbuterol be at its most useful in these high density / calorie diets? Have you ever experimented with a clen / volume food intake protocol?
Dan: That’s kind of like pointless, because many of these top pros use clen all year round unless they run out of it. And they are using 10-15 tablets a day. The problem is that it works 2 weeks and that’s it. If you cycle it 2 weeks on and then three weeks off then … yeah it could work well. You could be precise about it but you’ll never do it. (Dan was speaking of the thermometer method each morning as he has described in past articles.) It’s so nice to eat so much shit on clen that people just don’t get off it.
HM: You have spoken of a high fat diet. Is this different somewhat than DiPasquales’? If so, what are your basic recommendations?
Dan: First off, high fat diets have been around for quite awhile. I mean before Zumpano, there was the Atkins diet which was mostly low carbs all the time, which is not the healthiest thing in the world. Especially for athletes because it is too catabolic, over time. Both DiPasquales’ and mine are based on the 7 day (5 on, 2 off) plan. I’m a little more precise. He doesn’t care to get into ketosis, blood sugar, ketones in the urine and I do. Ketones are fractured fats and they are not as efficient as regular fats so you need more grams for the energy. Of course, it is a nice diet that he has done because it is just a rip-off of our stuff from the early 80’s.
HM: He seems really vague about it.
Dan: The problem is I used that diet for a long time in the early 80’s and most of the guys in prison were on it. You have to really do it yourself. He doesn’t seem to have a lot of people on a one-to-one basis to really get the feedback. I doubt he has done it himself for a prolonged amount of time. He’s armchair about it. People rebel against it and don’t want to follow it. But you have to expect that.
HM: On your 33/33/33 diet are there any important do’s and don’ts? Do you feel that the above diet is more beneficial dieting or can it be used ideally for muscle building too?
Dan: About 25% of the people in the U.S. wouldn’t need that diet. They have really great insulin sensitivity. These people process carbs well and don’t give a shit about aerobics and that would be fine. There are another 25% that are quite lousy at processing carbs like myself. And then there are about 50% that are somewhere in the middle. There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. There are essential amino acids, essential minerals / vitamins. There are essential fatty acids. There is no such thing as essential carbs. Protein can be turned into fat. Protein can turn into glucose. Past a certain point on many people, much of the protein and carbs that you eat are turned into fat right in the body – right in the liver and you have no control over it – and it is only one kind of fat. Saturated fat. Saturated fat really lowers insulin sensitivity. So if you just accept that your body is going to have some kind of fat in there, it is better to control it yourself than let the body do it.
HM: I have heard of some people still trying to crush up those Anadrol tablets and inject them.
Dan: Yeah, I remember one 50 mg shot injected seemed to feel like 3 orals. Hey, have you guys seen some of these guys with the instant calves? I talked to Nadler about that because some of these guys are way too poor for implants. I asked, could you do collagen there and he said, “Yeah, but it’s 250 dollars a cc.” But you can easily inject saline water in the muscle and it will swell up for a few days. You could do that for calves for a contest and it’s a lot cheaper than Esiclene. It would swell up much better.
HM: Some people get nerve damage from …
Dan: Well, Nadler showed me step-by-step instructions on how to put silicone in your calves. Just long small amounts in your calves, not large amounts, and your muscle will encapsulate it. And you can keep building it up and building it up. You could do biceps too.
HM: How do you put the silicone in though?
Dan: A needle, but of course it is not legal to do it in this country. But you could easily do it in Tijuana.
HM: Could be dangerous with the silicone though – like it is with breast implants.
Dan: That’s a little different; you’re only using small amounts. When they originally did silicone in the 70’s before they put it in the sac, they put a massive amount in the gland. But if you used a small amount and let the body encapsulate it, you could do it. I would do it.
HM: Will it move with the muscle though?
Dan: Yes it will. That’s the nice thing about it. Nadler can’t do it in this country but I could ask him – if he went to Tijuana, would he do it there? You would have to go back and forth because you couldn’t do it all at once.
HM: Could someone do it themselves?
Dan: (Dan got a good chuckle out of that one.) I could probably do it. I have no fear of needles. I’ll ask him.
Thank you to Hardcore Muscle and Dan Duchaine for making excerpts of this November, 1995 interview available to readers of MESO-Rx.
Copyright © 1995 Dan Duchaine and Hardcore Muscle International. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.