ASIH? Restoring HPTA Possible?

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by OnTooMuch, Jul 3, 2006.

  1. #1

    OnTooMuch Junior Member

    Initially, back when I was around 17, 18, 19 or so, I did just single steroids off and on, but then more regular.

    By my early 20s I was doing them consistently and was always stacking them. The various stacks that have been used and rotated consisted of the following:

    Main initial stack:

    1000 mg Test Cyp weekly for weeks 1 - 12
    750mg deca weekly for weeks 1 - 12​

    Another stack:

    Test Cyp 500mg twice weekly for weeks 1 - 10
    tren 75mg ED (Every Day) for weeks 1 - 8
    Winny 100mg EOD for weeks 8 - 14
    EQ 500mg a week for weeks 6-14​

    Another one:

    50mg anadrol split 2 x ED (say for a 12 week cycle)
    250mg Test Cyp + 200mg Deca on Monday (ditto)
    250mg Test Cyp + 200mg Deca on Thursday (ditto)​
    And finally:

    Tren 200mg EOD (say for a 10 - 14 week cycle)
    250mg Test Cyp + 200mg Deca on Monday (ditto)
    250mg Test Cyp + 200mg Deca on Thursday (ditto)​

    I would sort of rotate through these different combinations at different times.
    Plus more recently I have been using 12.5mcg a day of cytomel and over a couple of weeks of weeks 1 - 2 I would ramp the dose up to 50 mcg Cytomel through weeks 3 - 6 to get my metabolism "kick-started".

    My pct - when done at all - generally just consisted of a couple weeks of a combo of either hcg and clomid or HCG and nolvadex or HCG, Clomid and Proviron. Usually just HcG (like 5,000 IU spread out over the week) and nolva (about 40 mg daily) for the couple weeks and then back on cycle. Sometimes would just take a coule weeks off - with no PCT - and then back on cycle. I never seemed to have any water retention that was excessive (a couple times had to take some diuretics but not often) nor ever, ever experienced any "nipple issues" so assumed that I was just "immune". My "technical education" on AAS consisted of simply discussing them with other dudes at the gym and at the plant where I work. (Obviously not a very good education). :(

    I have now had problems for last several months with extreme moodiness, lots of depression, libido is completely gone, and testicles are not only soft and mushy but "maybe" the size of grapes. Even on the rare occasion when I am actually "in the mood" a little bit, I am now having more and more problems with ED. :mad:

    Most recently I am starting to get strong flashes of anxiety or panic attacks that used to come and go but are becoming more consistently regular all-day anxiety anymore. :(

    I was finally able to talk my doctor into getting some very basic blood work done - very basic, generic type blood work - but to include a Thyroid panel and :just for the heck of it, doc", a Total testosterone. Actually I even asked for acouple other T related things, but he didn't want to do even the Total T due to my age, saying I shouldn't have any testosterone problems. not with my age and obvious muscular build. Clearly I had never spoke to him about my AAS usage.

    He was as shocked as I was stunned when my Total T came back in levels showing 127 and then 119 (he had a second test done as he was so shocked). The Lab reference range is 260 - 1000.

    This is like our regular long-time family doctor and I know he already suspects something with probable steroid use. I am thinking about going to an Endo in a nearby town and trying to work with him as I just have fears of my local doc saying something to my parents or my brother or sister or the wife - even if it is inadvertent. My dad is a retired cop and might even turn me in!

    Anyway, I am desperate to know what is the possibility of getting this situation reversed. Can the HPTA Axis be repaired at this stage of the game? Without doing a lot of search engine research, what other tests should I make sure that this endo has done? LH? FSH? SHBG? Free Test? Just E2 or Total Es also?

    Should I inform him about the steroid usage? And if so, should I specifically tell him for how long and how much? I made a preliminary call to the endo's office and the closest appointment that they had available was almost two months away. I am going to call back Wednesday and make the appointment cause I got to do something.

    Any suggestions as to what the endo might do for this problem or things that I could reasonably suggest to him? I don't even know what kind of endo this is, what his specialty is. I think he's a daibetes specialist. Is there a specific type of Endo to which I should be looking for? :confused:

    Is there anything that I can do in the meantime? I have tried several natural things (tribulus and nettles and DIM and stuff like that, without getting any apparent positive results). Any advice from (Doctor Mike) or any other medical expert types or any of the really knowledgeable Bros would be hugely appreciated!


  2. #2

    pmgamer18 Member

    Go and see if you can't get your family Dr. to work with Dr. John over the phone. If you read his site the tests you need and why are in there. Endo's are not good for this you may find one out of many but most are not good.
  3. #3
    James Howlett

    James Howlett Junior Member

    Do what Phil says NOW!!! If you are close or if you can fly to Dr. John do it NOW!!!

    If not just do what Phil says. As you said, you think this endo is a diabetes specialist & that is all they are good for anyway.
  4. #4
    Matt Muscle

    Matt Muscle Junior Member

    The pct you have done has not really been of any use, especially seeing that you have jumped straight back onto high dosages of heavy steriods, which has compounded your problem further.
    It is not surprising that your body is so suppressed after one cycle then another like you have listed.

    The treatment that you require (which should be undertaken by a doctor experienced in this, as has been suggested) needs to be run much longer than you have attempted and the drugs used at specific dosages and correct intervals... given of course that you have stopped and will not resume AAS use. Being able to have the necessary labs done at the right times is very usefull as well.
    It's very possibly that this will restore your natural function but it will take some time.

    I do think that your doctor needs to know your history, as they are required to keep your information confidential?
    Unless your Endo is experienced with treating guys who have used AAS, I think Dr John would be a far better option.
    You could check out Chaps post on restarting his HPTA, after his use of testosterone for HRT, however you may need a longer course of SERM therapy with a slow taper, given the amounts of AAS you have used and particularly if it was over a period of years!
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2006
  5. #5

    chap Junior Member

    Actually, my hrt came right after years of abuse, including tren and other anabolics..... I was at the point where I thought I would be a slave to injections forever, but for me my restart has been successful beyond what I had expected.
  6. #6

    OnTooMuch Junior Member

    I went to Dr. John's web site and it has free downloads that deal with a basic TRT protocol and then a TRT protocol that included hcg. Now I understand that if my HPTA shutdown is permanent that then I'll have to go onto TRT for life but right now I am looking at seeing if I can get my HPTA shutdown reversed. So taking Dr. John's posted TRT protocols to my doctor or even my Endo isn't going to do me any good. I saw no listed protocol for HPTA Shutdown Reversal posted there, so I can't take that printed out protocol to my Endo or doctor as there isn't one posted. So I assume that means I would have to actually drive up and make a visit to this Dr. John (Crisler)? I live in, well, let's just say the central Deep South ergion, and a drive or flying to Lansing, Michigan isn't something I could do on the spur of the moment. Plus I work only part-time (no benefits) and what measley benefits thatwe do have comes from my wife's low salary fulltime job. In fact that's when I stopped the AAS as we had gotten married and wanted to save for a house and having a couple kids and that type of stuff.

    I made that appt with the Endo earlier today and am gonig to drive over and see him. To show how small and slow things are around here, I atually got an appt for late next week. Would giving him the list that Dr. John uses for testing still be a good idea? And what test results should I be looking for to give me an idea as to whether I have a good chance of HPTA reversal or not? I guess I am going to have to tell about the AAS usage. The receptionist told me that this endo works in all areas of that field just that he specializes in diabetes as that is his larget group of patients. She said that he has treated men for hypogonadism but I don't know if that means he is knwledgeable in HPTA reversals. I seen on Dr. John's cite that he "consults" with other doctors. Does that mean that he will work with other doctors like with your local doctor or endo? Does anyone know exactly how that works and how that is paid?
  7. #7

    OnTooMuch Junior Member

    I appreciate this advice and maybe you could point me towards a couple of links that discuss your own specific HPTA reversal. Did you perform this under the care of a doctor or was this strictly self experimentation? You see I have concerns about self expermenting and listening to other non doctors as it was that type of process that got me in this hot water to start with. Plus concerns that we are all somewhat different and that what works very good for person A might not work at all for person B.

    I take it that what you are saying is that you peformed this particular protocol and that your previously shut down HPTA reversed and you are producing good levels of testosterone now? If that is so, could you advise me what your current (most recent blood test - and when) levels of Total Testosterone and Free Testosterone were? Also E2 and Total Estrogens if they were measured. I believe that a lot of my bloating and water retaining and especially anxiety are now due to highly elevated estrogen levels. Does that make sense? Are you continuing to take anything on this regimen to keep th HPTA active? If so what are you currently taking.

    Any answers would be helpful.
  8. #8
    Matt Muscle

    Matt Muscle Junior Member

    I think Dr John would need to see you... yes he does help guys in your situation with HPTA shut down. Plus if your doctor is agreeable he will work with him.
    If you have no luck with your Endo... I would save the money and get your self a flight for the one consultation that may help you.
    Think of all the money you spent getting your self into this situation!;)
  9. #9

    OnTooMuch Junior Member

    Yeah, you're right. When i was doing all that stuff, I was young AND stupid and single and working a full-time job with lots of overtime. I quit doing the AAS when I got married, well after a couple years (LOL) and then shortly after that, well, the overtime hours went away and then I got cut back to part-time hours with no benefits. We just have the medial benefits from my wife's job and those are really crummy. Had I known this shit was going to happen I'd have never touched the stuff.

    And I had no luck with the Endo. I told him about the AAS and his response was "well, since you've stopped, let's wait and see what type of natural recovery happens". And at the same time is telling me that we could be looking at anywhere from 6 months to 2 years to see a natural recovery even if it does happen.

    Right now, I am really ticked with this situation with the supposed experty (Dr Scally0 that was being brought aboard this forum just for this prupose. This really sucks. now I've got to tell the wife and the rest of the family about the AAS and the hypogoandism. I have already also told my regular doctor and he's offered to put me on some androgel until I can make arrangements to see Dr. John or some other expert.

    By the way, I've called probably 3/4th of the doctors in a 50 mile radius of here (not really that many) and not found even one who would work on a consultation basis with Dr. John. And a couple said that they could legally not work on a consultation basis with Dr. Scally as he's not a licensed doctor! What is with that crap?

  10. #10

    hackskii Member

    My TRT doc did not put me on any kindof recovery protocol but put me on TRT, that made matters worse.
    What you need is a good pct
    Give me a PM, I am quite sure I can help you. I have helped a friend that was on for about a year and he did what Scally told me and he recovered.
    Its not the end of the world, give me a PM if you are interested, I will give you details of everything including where to get the meds if you dont have a scrip.
    I can help you with everything.
    I have places that I go to that I can get the meds for quite cheap, no scrip delivered right to your door.

    Within two days you will get your morning wood back and feel way better if you just follow directions.

  11. #11

    hackskii Member

    Oh, just some food for thought, it can take between 6-18 months to recover without any intervention.

    My brother did a long deca cycle and got shutdown for one year, his test levels were lower than yours, his test levels were like 36 months later.
    I am positive I can help you.

    When I was shut down my test levels were lower than yours as well.
    I had smashed grape size nuts, I felt terrible too.

    When was your last shot of Deca?
    You know it takes along time for deca to clear the system.
    deca is such a nightmare cos it re-esterfies in the fatty tissue of the body, so its exerting its effects on HPTA upto 18 months after last admin!!!! its also detectable for that period also, thats why most failed drug tests are upto nandrolone

    I am willing to bet that if you PM me with your situation I am very confidant that we can resolve your problem.
    I can show you where to get everything you need for your pct, the total amounts you need, the daily amounts you will need and all your questions answered comming from someone that was in the exact same situation as you.
  12. #12

    rush74 Junior Member

    Hackski would you mind posting such a regimen so we all could see.. I for one and Im sure many others would be VERY interested in what you have to say.

    thanks bro
  13. #13

    hackskii Member

    Sure, not too sure that Mike would like it very much but beings that he isnt around here goes.
    Now this may appear to be a bit aggressive with the amounts of hcg but I can tell you from my perspective it worked very well.
    I myself was in the middle of trying to jumpstart my HPTA after being on TRT and not feeling very well.
    I was put on TRT due to a failed pct in the first place.
    My other doc put me on TRT (test cream), felt good at first then had libido issues, didnt feel like my old self, etc.

    At the time I talked to Scally I was using 10mg aromasin, 50mg of clomid and 20 mg of nolva a day and also was using 500iu of HCG, but for some reason I was not responing very well to the HCG it was Pregnyl 1500iu.
    I was following a PCT from Anthony Roberts, from this board here:
    But to be honest it didnt work like I had hoped. Maybe the degree of supression, I dont know but that did'nt work for me.

    Here is what Dr. Mike gave me as a protocol he said he had treated thousands of guys with very good success.
    At the time I had testicles the size of smashed grapes and very kind of fiberous (like a little lump of cheese cloth) and after a hot shower it was really depressing.

    2500iu HCG EOD x 8 (20,000iu HCG total)
    50mg of clomid twice a day (12 hours apart), (100mg total a day) for 30 days.
    20mg of nolvadex for 45 days.

    Here is my PCT journal on another board:

    So if you like, read the journal and come to your own scientific opinions:D
    I didnt need to go to the doc to get any tests and it takes probably around 6 weeks for all the tamoxifan to get out of my system as to not skew any tests.

    If you have any questions please feel free to ask.
    You can pick up all the meds online and have them delivered right to your door.
    I ordered more HCG from an online pharmacy and supposidly you dont need a scrip from them and they take Visa so I decided to charge it. If it does not come I will dispute the charges and get my money back.
    If it does come then I will be the first to tell the guys here, price was not great but not bad either.
    The other stuff I used was in liquid form, all available online and no hastle as it is domestic.
    I will post the source for that apon request.

    Oh, now to this day I totally dont like the idea of using an aromatase inhibitor for many reasons during PCT.
  14. #14

    Normandy Junior Member

    Please share ur reasons for not liking Aromatase Inhibitors during a pct
  15. #15

    hackskii Member

    Sure, here goes,

    Ok, lets look at some of the experts say about using an AI during pct.

    This is William Llewellyn the guy that wrote Anabolics 2006 and the other Anabolics books, and a HRT Dr. named John Crisler (Swale).

    Next post.

    Another post a few down.

  16. #16

    StudHoo Junior Member

    Hackskii - Regarding your pct protocol, did you start the hcg shots, clomid, and nolva all on day 1, or did you start the HCG earlier ? Very much appreciate all the info you've shared.
  17. #17

    hackskii Member

    All day 1

    Remember HCG aromatises heavily.
    You would have a set of tits in a week:D
    I got beginning symptoms of gyno (years ago) with just one shot of 1000iu and I am not gyno prone at all.

    The heavy aromitization of HCG might be an issue with the desentization of the leydig cells, that is why I thought that the idea of an AI was sound.
    But comming from the experts It seems not to be.
    Its cool recovery went better than expected so, hell screw it I go with what works now.
  18. #18
    Matt Muscle

    Matt Muscle Junior Member

    hackskii, thank you for posting all of that. Do you know if Scally would still recomend the use of the high dose hCG if you had been using low dose hCG during HRT. In this case the testes would be still functioning? Perhaps the high stimulation is still needed?
  19. #19

    hackskii Member

    Oh man, I cant answer for Scally.

    Blood tests would be needed to provide evidence of full testicular function.
    I kind of feel that total shutdown might need a more agressive approach to bring the testicles online.
    The more subtle approach didnt do much for me TBH.
    And for the record clomid did more than nolva in my case from what I can see.
    But both together for me are where it's at for recovery.

    Sorry, I can't answer for Scally.
  20. #20

    kram Junior Member

    Feeling Hopeless
    I'm another one who used and abused AS for over 20yrs. since I was in my 20s Then a few yrs ago I started to have libido and ED issues so i been off the AS for about 2 yrs and trying TRT for about a year now and so far its just not working for me just don't feel like my oldself

    I can't resolve the libido ED issues and I'm starting to get a hopeless feeling that I'll will never have a normal sex life very sad for me

    I'm working with Dr. John and a local doctor first he had me doing injectable Test 100mg a week with his hcg Protical and he said my labs looked dame good but I felt like shit. Now has me trying cream at 50mgs a day and HCG 100ius a day i feel bit better less edgy look great but still have like no libido and bad ED issues seems the longer I stay on the Test the worse the libido and ED issues get

    Starting to really feel hopeless :confused:

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