(Best of Meso) Training Theory by Angel Face

Discussion in 'Training Forum' started by Phreezer, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    [Best of Meso] Training Theory by Angel Face

    Date: 09/30/01 09:44 AM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: Here we go

    ...Right then I've basically decided to create this thread pretty much
    as a resource on training theory...What I intend to do is make this
    thread kinda like a text book so that anyone can refer to it if they
    need to know something...this will take me a while to complete so I am
    gonna do it in installments like small chapters...If the thread looks
    like its gonna disappear cuz I havent posted can you please bump it to
    keep the sucka active?... ...Why am I doing this? well for 2 reasons
    really...the first is so that everyone out there has access to theories
    that they may not neccessarily be familiar with...therefore I hope
    everyone will learn something from this thread or at least it will jog
    their memories and make you think a little... Plus I am getting
    complacent so this will hopefully serve as a refresher for myself and
    get me thinking again!... ...I will try to make it as readable as I can
    so its not gonna be mega scientific or complex because I dont have the
    resources...all information that I will post...I will backup with
    literature when the thread is completed....Its not gonna be realy long
    just enough to present you with some good basic information and
    hopefully introduce you all to training theory so that you can apply it
    to yourself... If anyone has got anything to add please feel free to do

    Date: 09/30/01 10:29 AM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: Basic Concepts...

    ...This first few parts will deal with a few basic theories and will be
    somewhat introductory. ...ADAPTATION.. Adaptation is both the primary
    target of training in general and one of the most important laws that
    governs the way we train. A simple definition of adaptation would be
    adjustment to environment. Consequently when the environment is subject
    to change so too would be the object. The primary objective in training
    is to incite explicit adaptations to increase performance. Consequenlty
    it can be seen that the application of a carefully contrived training
    program is imperitive. For adaptation to occur then the stimulus for the
    adaptation has to be at a greater level than the current standing. To
    increase the magnitude manipulating the intensity, volume and modality
    is often employed. Consequnetly if the same stimulus is being presented
    over a long period of time then once intial adaptations have occured
    there will be no more changes thus a plateau forms. Training loads are
    often categorized into three areas according to the 'magnitude' that
    they correspond to ... ...The first would be a stimulating
    magnitude...here the training load is above the habitual level... ...The
    second is retaining...this is where the level is neutral and thus
    maintained... ...The third is thus detraining...here the magnitude is
    beneath the habitual level and thus a decline in performance is
    observed. Essentially for any positive adaptation to occur then OVERLOAD
    must be created. In the absence of overload typically performance will
    either be maintined for a period of time or decrease. This is governed
    by accomodation. ACCOMODATION is in essence a decrease in response
    observed to a continual stimulus. Thus interms of training continual
    stimulus results in a loss of reponse. Resulting in a plateau, training
    thus becomes redundant. This concept neccessitates the need to present
    yourslef with variety. It is unwise to present yourself with the same
    stimulus for a long period of time. Avoidance of the accomodation effect
    can be achievd by the simple application of variety achieved via
    quantitaive (load, volume intensity etc)and qualitative (types of
    exercises performed) measures. Adaptation to training stimulus is
    specific. For a particular training goal to be observed the stimulus
    (training) has to be specific to the goal. Consequently it would be
    unwise for an olympic weightlifter to train like an endurance athlete
    and vice versa. SPECIFICITY is the application of the training stimulus
    to the nature of the intended goal. Therefore if an individual wanted to
    increase his benchpressing ability it woudl be wise to train the muscles
    resposibles for the movement.... ...

    Date: 09/30/01 04:25 PM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: Adaptations as response to training part1...

    ...Adaptations as a response to the training stimulus can be classified
    as either Central (CNS)and peripheral (pertaining to the muscle). The
    importance of the central nervous system cannot be underestimated. to
    appreciate the adaptations that occur centrally we must first be aware
    of how these central factors work. Typically central factors fall into
    two distinct categories. The first is intramuscular coordination..this
    relates to which the muscle fibres can be activated voluntarily.
    Intermuscular coordination is the coordinated innervation of appropriate
    muscell groups and is thus skill related. Motor units are the essential
    foundations of the motor system. Typically they consist of motoneurons,
    axons, motor endplates, and muscle fibres activated by a motor neuron.
    Motor units are generally classified into to groups based on their
    contractile characteristics. Slow motor units are typically used for
    prolonged use at low intensities, they consist of small low threshold
    motor neurons axos with low conduction frequencies and slow twitch
    muscle fibres. Consequently fast motor units are the antithesis of slow
    motor units. They will consist of a large high threshold motor neuron,
    an axon with a high conduction velocity and fast twitch muscle fibres.
    the activation of a motor unit is solicited by an all or nothing law.
    basically this dictates that a motor unit either fires or it doesnt.
    Consequently there is no alteration in the inetnisty of firing, they
    either fire or they dont. the Central nervous system governs muscle
    force via three methods...RECRUITMENT, RATE CODING and SYNCHRONIZATION.
    The recruitment pattern of the motor units during a voluntary
    contraction is dependant on the size of the motor neurons (Size
    principle). the motorneurons with the lowest firing threshold
    (smaller)are recruited first, conseqnelty the more the intensity
    increases the larger forces neccessary to generate are done so via
    increasing the recruitment of the larger motorneurons. Consequently no
    matter what the intensity of exercise slow twich fibres will be
    recruited to some extent. The achieving of full motor unit activation is
    deemed particularly difficult thus untrained individuals cannot recruit
    all their motor units. one of the primary adaptations that occurs as
    aresponse to weight training is an increase in the ability to recruit
    Motor units. thus trained individual have an increased propensity for
    motor unit activation. RATE CODING is the discharge frequency of the
    motorneurons. With an increase in force needed, firing rate will
    increase to accomodate. Synchronisation...motor units work in harmony to
    achieve a fluid movemnt pattern. Within the muscle there are specific
    inhibitory mechanisms that inhibit the amount of force that can be
    generated. These are known as Golgi tendon organs and Renshaw cells. It
    is common in life or death situation for a completely untrained
    individual to be able to produce massive amounts of force...this is most
    likely due to an inactivation of these inhibitory mechanisms. It has
    been shown that with strength training a reuction in neural inhibition
    can occur increasing the amount of strength that can be generated due to
    an increase in the recruitable 'motorneron pool'. Exercise is a highly
    skillful sequence that requires the complex coordination of several
    muscel groups (intermuscular coordination). Consequently motor learning
    or the acquisition of skillshould be a primary training objective.
    Dramatic strength increases in beginners is oftem the result of skill
    acquisition, consequently this type of adaptaion has little cross over
    benefit. Next time I will concntrate on the peripheral adaptations and
    consequently the theories of muscular growth.

    Date: 10/01/01 11:55 AM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: Adaptations part 2 - peripheral

    O.K in the last post I presented a few of the central adaptations that
    can occur. These adaptations are repsonsible for the observation of
    strength increases without hypertophy. Consequently for the first few
    weeks of training when initial increases in strength are observed, the
    strength increases are deemed to be the result of neuromuscular
    ...Peripheral adaptations, this is the area that we as bodybuilders will
    be most concerned with. Again I will introduce a few concepts. I will
    briefly discuss hypertrophy and hyperplasia. For those that dont have an
    understanding of physiology I will briefly explain a few basic concepts.
    Again I will keep it pretty simple as I dont want to blind everyone with
    Skeletal muscles consist of many many fibres. these are long and
    cylindrical in shape they are the cells. Each of the fibres is made up
    of myofibrils, which are made up of sarcomeres. These sarcomeres are
    made up of both thick (myosin)and thin filaments(actin). The myosinf
    filaments have small crossbridges projecting outwards on the end of
    these protrusions is the myosin head.
    Muscle contraction (known as the sliding filament theory) is the result
    of the myosin and actin filaments sliding across each other. This is
    because the myosin heads attach the actin and basically pull the
    filamnts over each other. This results in a shortening of the sarcomere.
    So everytime you contract a muscle this is what happens, it shortens
    because the filaments slide. Hence a muscle can only pull, it cannot
    push. Muscles with longer sarcomeres (filaments) generally can exert a
    greater force because they have more room to overlap. All sarcomeres of
    the myofibrils exert the same amount of force, they act in a linear
    The force produced by a muscle fibre is dependant on the number of actin
    and myosin filaments and thus the number of myofibrils. One of the main
    adaptations of training is an increased number of myofibrils per muscle
    fibre, and an increase in the density and size of the filaments. This
    will result in an increase in the cross sectional area (size) of a
    muscle. Consequently from this assertion it can be seen why a bigger
    muscle is potentially a stronger muscle.
    muscle force is dependant on the number of muscle fibres, cross
    sectional area of the fibres and thus size.
    Increase in muscle size is called muscle hypertophy and is caused by
    either an increased number of motor fibre (fibre hyperplasia) or an
    increase in the cross sectional area of a muscle fibre(fibre
    Here we will deal with two types of fibre hypertophy, myofibrillar and
    sarcoplasmic. Sarcoplasmic hypertophy is the increase in size of the
    sarcoplasm, typically filament density will decrease with sarcoplasmic
    hypertophy, so that it is possible for a fibre CSA to increase without
    increases in strength. Myopfibrillar hypertophy is an enlargement of the
    muscle fibre because more myofibrils are formed, consequently it is
    usually followed by an increase in filament density and thus strength
    Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is associated with an increase in
    noncontractile tissues, which is why filamnt density decreases.
    Myofibrillar hypertophy typically results in an increase in contractile
    tissues hence the increase in density and strength.
    There are many theories as to how weight training results in hpertophy,
    the most widely accpeted theory is that of the breakdown and build up
    This theory in its most basic form speculates that all energy during
    exhaustive weigh training is spent on the training itself resulting in
    the creation of a catabolic state. Consequently a deficit forms during
    training where more amino acids are being broken down than synthesized.
    After training protein synthesis is increased massively both post
    workout and up till the next session. Protein synthesis will then drop
    again during training. The purported increase in muscle size is due to
    the fluctuation of protein synthesis which is alleged to result in
    SUPERCOMPENSATION of protein and thus hypertophy. This alone
    neccesitates the need for more protein in the diet (so fuck off RDAs
    I wont cover the hormonal affects of training unless you want me to as
    some of you will probably want to commit suicide due to boredom!
    Phewwwwww, got that (I hope so) I am sure that what I probably just
    typed (very badly I am sure as per usual!) will make no sense whatsoever
    so I apologise for how this thread will read...not exactly enthralling
    stuff i know but it will get much better I promise!
    next time we shall cover SUPERCOMPENSATION amoungst a few other
  2. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Date: 10/01/01 05:27 PM
    Edited: 10/01/01 05:28 PM
    Author: toms
    Subject: Easy on the vocab

    I thought you said these wouldn't get to scientific. It's obvious that
    your trying to sound well educated by your word choices. All of your
    post is easy reading until you get into the information where you switch
    to textbook style. You gonna lose a lot of readers if you keep writing
    like this. Check out my edit of your third post:
    ...changes from training can be grouped as Central or muscle. Central
    factors fall into two categories. The first is intramuscular
    coordination and the second is intermuscular coordination. Slow motor
    units are used at low intensities. Fast motor units are used at high
    intensities. One of the primary adaptations that occurs as a response to
    weight training is an increase in the ability to recruit Motor units.
    Trained individuals have an increased ability to recruit muscle fibers.
    It has been shown that with strength training a reduction in neural
    inhibition can occur increasing the amount of strength. Strength
    increases in beginners is oftem the result of skill acquisition,
    consequently this type of adaptaion has little cross over benefit. Next
    time I will write about muscle changes and theories on muscle growth.

    Date: 10/02/01 06:22 AM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: RE: Easy on the vocab

    Cheers mate, I am so used to writing scientifically its quite hard not
    to as the way i underatnd it in my mind probably is not translating
    well in the posts, What I intend to do once I can find the neccessary
    web sites is to link to them so that there are diagrams to basically
    show what i am trying to say, Its really difficult to explain about
    motor units etc etc plus muscle composition if you cant see what I am
    trying to explain. After the physiology side it will be a lot more
    accessible, chances are though when it come to the biomechanics side
    people will get confused... ...anyway I will try to explain it better
    and more clear, i am shit at typing - I've got monkey finger so I tend
    to hit three buttons at once and probably mispell shite loads of
    things. Eventually i will edit the posts to clear things up and then
    link the sites. At the minute i am typing off the top of my head (so I
    am probably taking for granted that because I know what certain
    scientific terms mean, other people will too) so when it comes to
    things I myslef are unclear about I will probably explain them better
    with references.
  3. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Date: 10/04/01 02:15 AM
    Author: johnsmith
    Subject: RE: RE: Easy on the vocab

    angel, if you can maybe you should post graphs of both the single
    factor theory and the dual factor theory side by side, so people can
    see how they differ, and can see why people who subscribe to the
    dual factor theory program training differently. assuming you have
    zatsiorskys book, you can get some nice graphs there if you want...

    Date: 10/04/01 03:44 AM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: RE: RE: Easy on the vocab

    I havent got Zatsiorsky's book at the minute, I can get hold of it
    though...I intend to post graphs I Just dont know how to do
    it...do you John? ...Its not gonna be particularly undertsandable
    without them is it!...

    Date: 10/04/01 04:51 AM
    Author: johnsmith
    Subject: RE: RE: Easy on the vocab

    no, unfortunately i dont know how to post them either. the only
    thing i can think of would be to make them, put them on one of
    those free homepages like homestead or something, then link to
    it. but thats a lot of work, thats why i never did it.

    Date: 10/04/01 06:11 AM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: RE: RE: Easy on the vocab

    Cheers John...I'll try to find some sites that may have the
    diagrams on and link them...if not I'll try making the damned
    things...why do I get the feeling that I may live to regret
    making this thread!
  4. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Date: 10/03/01 12:34 PM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: Basic Training theories

    ...After a couple of suggestions I have had I will try my best to keep
    things easy reading...today's topic is really
    straightforward...regarding what I have spoke about previously I will
    edit it and make it more readable...plus I may have to add quite a bit
    more physiological stuff and biochemistry depending on how the thread
    ...Anyway SUPERCOMPENSATION...this is a really basic and somewhat
    obvious concept that for a while was accepted quite widely...however
    nowadays it is deemed a bit too simplistic. This theory is based on the
    assumption that training will deplete certain substances, obvious
    examples would be glycogen...One theory about hypertophy is that
    training acts catabolically. The training serves as a stimulus, after
    the training there is the neccessary rest period. After the rest period
    it is puported that the appropriate substance concentration will
    increase to a level beyond the initial point. Simple really! Now to
    ensure that this would happen rest periods would have to be optimal.
    optimal is an expression used alot in science, which basically means
    desirable. If the rest period was too short then the individual would
    not be completely recovered and as such the training would deplete the
    substance even more which over a period of time would result in
    overtraining and a loss of performance ie: training 4 times a day!. If
    the rest interval was too long then the training would lose its stimulus
    property, the individual would recover completely and lose the window of
    oppurtinutity to provide the stimulus again. So ultimately the
    individual would never improve...ie if yu trained once every 2-3 weeks,
    you simply would not improve. If the interval is optimal then
    improvemnts surely follow.
    This theory is then dependant on two factors really: Optimal rest
    interval, Optimal load selection. With regards to loads, the load has to
    be such so that it stimulates optimally, it cannot be too high or low.
    Typically this theory is represented on a wave like diagram (I will link
    these asap.). An obvious example of the supercompensation theory is carb
    loading. With carb loading for a period of time you deplete the muscle
    stores, which would results in a massive drop in CHO levels, after this
    occurs an individual would overfeed with an abundance of carbs, the body
    is alleged then to store more carbs than the pre depletion level within
    the muscle tissue resulting in a greater concentration of carbs. This is
    often applied to more than gylcogen, training is alleged to cause a
    similar repsonse to protein synthesis, hence the 'break down and build
    up' theory. I will post later on with regards to a more complex

    Date: 10/04/01 06:42 AM
    Edited: 10/04/01 06:47 AM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: RE: Basic Training theories

    I tried linking this but it wouldnt work properly...maybe something to
    do with my lack of html skills...
    Ignore the text on this if you want..the first diagram is the overload
    diagram...note the starting point...and the window of opputinity aka
    the period of supercompensation... ...the second diagram is the
    effects of repeated bouts of supercompenation which results in an
    increased starting threshold an each successive session (does that
    make sense?)....anyway the diagrams will show it better

    Date: 10/05/01 05:33 AM
    Author: Angel face
    Subject: Two Factor Theory

    For this I will be refering to 'the science and practise of strength
    training' by Vladimir Zatsiorky as mentioned by John earlier...I forgot
    how good this book is and I recommend that anyone interested in this
    area to buy it...be warned though if you think that what I say is
    confucing just wait.... ...Two factor theory, also called Fitness
    fatigue theory is somewhat more complex than supercompensation theory.
    This theory is entirely dependant on one thing Zatsiorsky referes to it
    as preparedness...I prefer base conditioning. This preparedness or
    condition is comprised of two componants: slow changing and fast
    changing. Zatsiorsky uses the example of fitness as a slow changing
    componant of preparedness. This is because over the short term fitness
    does not fluctuate often, however external factors can affect it ie:
    illness. Zatsiorsky describes prepardness as a set of 'latent
    charcteristics' (he means that they exist but are dependantly
    intangible)...these charcteristics can only be measured or quantified at
    certain times. Sounds quite complex but you will grasp it soon!...
    ...This theory works similar to an equillibrium, training will have an
    immediate affect (similar to supercompensation) that is the combination
    of fatigue and gain. So after a workout, because of the stimulus that it
    provides preparedness or conditioning increases (gain) but at the same
    time will decrease due to fatigue from the training. Hopefully things
    now will start to make sense.
    So, the outcome of the training session is the result of both the
    positive and negative consequences of the training session. These two
    outcomes depend on time as does the one factor theory
    (supercompensation). By striking the correct balance, fatigue should be
    large in extent but short in how long it lasts. Gain on the other hand
    should be moderate however is longer in duration. Typically the
    relationship is 1:3, if fatigue lasts x amount of time then gain lasts
    3x amount of time.
    ...From these two theories that have been introduced you should all now
    be able to see that the most importnat factor that they introduce is
    timing! with the supercompensation theory it is preferable for the next
    workout to fall in the supercompensation period. With the
    fitness-fatigue theory timing is best if the proceeding workout takes
    place when all the negative consequneces (fatigue) of training are
    diminsihed but the positive (gain) is still apparent. When I find a site
    with the neccessary diagram I will try to link it!
  5. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Date: 10/05/01 07:09 PM
    Author: johnsmith
    Subject: RE: Two Factor Theory

    hate to butt in here, but let me explain what i think are the
    important things about these theories...
    given the one factor theory, which looks at physical ability as, or
    course, one factor, you are left with the problem of timing workouts
    to correspond to the supercompensation wave... anything sooner or
    later will lead to a useless workout.
    given the two factor theory, which seperates physical fitness or
    prepardness and fatigue, you see that the timing of individual
    workouts it is unimportant to long term gains... in other words
    regardless of whether or not fatigue is or is not present, fitness can
    still be increased...
    what is important to note is that there is almost universal agreement
    amoung scientists and athletes and coaches in all sports EXCEPT
    bodybuilding that the two factor theory is correct and the single
    factor theory is not correct and is in fact suitable only for
    beginners to follow when planning training.
    it is also important to note that most athletes in most sports are
    experiencing some level of constant fatigue ALWAYS, except for maybe a
    couple of weekends a year, when they are peaking. training takes place
    daily against a backdrop of fatigue.
  6. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Date: 10/08/01 03:18 PM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: RE: RE: Two Factor Theory

    I am glad you brought this up John, thanks...
    ...with regards to fatigue yes it is always there only it rises and
    falls depending on rest...the accumulation of stresses induced by
    training and other variables contribut to fatigue...fatigue has a
    mounting effect wherein it can slowly build up and build up until
    OTS (over training syndrome) is achieved...this is one of the many
    major fundamental reasonings for the peaking phase of periodisation.
    And most probably Mike Mentzer's arguments for HIT...so eventially
    training can become counterproductive.
    ...as to why the 2 factor theory is not accepted in BBing I dont
    know why...do you John? or anyone else for that matter?...

    Date: 10/08/01 03:10 PM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: Intensity

    ...This is a bigee and therefore I wil dedicate a few posts to
    this...cheers for the positive response fellas I really appreciate
    it...John, anytime you've got soemthing to add go right ahead mate...I
    was hoping that you would contribute to this thread...I kinda feel like
    training methods are undervalued hence one of the reasons for me
    starting this thread.
    ...Intensity is a term that is used interchangeably with several
    concepts...by this I mean that there are several different ways of
    interpreting what constitutes intensity...Often these can be conflicting
    but in essence it relates to how hard one is performing...Right then
    intensity can be quantified via 4 (usually) criterion assessments:
    intensity as a percntage of 1 RM...in Sports sci circles this is the
    most common measurement of intensity with regards to strength training
    (for aerobic type work intensity is usually measured via %age of max
    heart rate)...consequently the closer you are to you 1 Rm in a
    particular exercise the higher intensiy that you are working at...the
    number of sets performed per hour, this obviuosley correlated to rest
    intervals, the shorter the rest interval the more sets that can be
    performed and thus the higher intensity...repetitions (this is
    conditional really as are all the measures of intensity!)...this general
    rule of thumb dictates that the closer you work to failure the higher
    intensity (I will address failure several times later on!) you are
    working at example: if you can perform 10 reps with x amount of weight
    performing 8 reps is more intense than performing 5...the final
    measurement is not often employed in the western world and really is
    only applicable to competetive athletes in strength sports not
    BBers...this is similar to the 1 rm intensity measure...this measure of
    intensity is expressed as a %age of highest attained weight or PB...this
    differentiates between training weight and competition
    weights...external variables such as crowd reaction, motivating factors
    etc etc can significantly (I dont use the word significantly lightly..I
    am currently using it in the scientific sense of the term!)affect the
    amount of weight lifted...anyone familar with the sports psychology term
    'flow' or the 'zone' will understand that during competition there are
    unexplainable periods wherein an athltes performs their best above any
    training measure (whether it be weight lifted or time ran etc etc,
    everything comes together effortlessly) hence this intensity measure
    quantifies intensity as a %age of competiton weight...this is usually
    done via heart rate...if an individual elicits a particularly elevated
    HR prior to a lift then that lift is beyond what can be lifted during
    training...This was originally a soviet technique (I think, dont quote
    me on that)...so what I am trying to say is there are 2 intensities one
    is with the presence of stress (eustress is a positive stress that is
    beneficial) and without stress...I wont cover this method (thank god i
    will be explaining it forever! unless some of the powerlifters would
    want me too, let me know if your interested!)...With regards to the %age
    of 1 Rm it is important to note that every idividual is different
    depending on many factors such as neural efficiency, fibre ratio and so
    on...basically if two atrhletes can bench 300lbs for 1 RM...they wont
    neccesarilt be able to perform 10 reps with same amount of weight.
    ...I will cover intensity a lot more very soon!...I will adress training
    to failure, optimal rep ranges for goals, TUT (time under
    tension!)submaximal training and HIT (whats the betting that this causes
    controversey)...also I am gonna apologise in advance as i will be
    editing the physio. stuff and including more scientifc terms and
    jargon...however its essential that you understand it before we
  7. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Date: 10/09/01 03:20 PM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: Intensity cont.

    Intensity again, as mentioned this is a V. large area so I will be
    dealing with it several more times...this pretty much goes hand in hand
    with training to failure and as this area has sparked some recent
    discussions I will be covering this area several times, from a couple of
    different view points...so what is said is not always gospel or an
    ...First off training with maximal weights...O>k before I delve into
    this I want you to remember rate coding - smallest MUs first etc..well
    unless a maximal load is lifted then only a portion of Motor Units are
    utilised...Your body will only innervate the amount of Motor units that
    are neccessary to perform the task!
    ...Back to Max weights, essentially gains elicited from max weight are
    the result of the two previuos theories of neural adaptation:
    intermuscular coordination and intramuscular coordination. Therefore the
    majority of gains are not related to muscle growth but neural
    efficiency...again I ask you to remeber what was mentioned previuosly
    about hypertrophy in paticular the breakdown build up theory of protein
    catabolism (training induces catabolism rest and recovery plus adaquate
    protein intake induces supercompensation of protein and thus muscle
    growth takes place) well because not enough WORK is performed when using
    max weights (work = Force x Time, force = mass x acceleration)to
    potentiate the neccessary muscle catabolism so that the anabolism can
    take place...
    ...Training to failure via repeated subamaximal reps...this process of
    training poetentiates differnet effects. Essentially as more work is
    peformed in conjunction with rate coding, more motor units are recruited
    to perform the set, again due to the fact that more work is performed
    catabolism is markedly higher than training with maximal
    weights....however strength gain is not the same as the most allegidle
    important reps are performed at the end of set approaching
    failure...this is because the higher threshold fatigueing motor units
    are recruited and fatigued...thus causing the neccessary training effect
    however as they are recruited while 'semi fatigued' the training effect
    is not as significant on these motor units in comparison with max
    ...training submaximally from what has been mentioned above it would
    seem fair to assume that this type of training would be pretty useless
    unless it is performed to failure...however the difference between
    taking a set to failure or to 1 or even 2 reps before failure will occur
    seems negligible..plus by ,manipulating rest intervals shortening the
    amount of rest inbetween consecutibe sets intensity is increased or by
    increaseing the amount of time it takes to perform the
    repetition...training to the exact moment of failure is not neccessarily
    So then it would appear that a big muscle isnt a strong muscle well this
    is inaccurate, again nerual factors offer the reasoning...again I will
    use rate coding it is extremely difficult to increase the strength of
    slow motor units, hypertophy mainly occurs in the type 2a muscle fibres
    (fast/intermediary fibres), consequently there is a correlation between
    the size of a fast twitch muscle fibre and strength because the main
    training adaptations occur in that muscle fibre type(s)...refering back
    to what was said previoulsy about hypertophy due to increased
    contrcatile proteins increases strength and muscle size....again this
    will be discussed later.
    ...Next time I will present a different view on training to failure.
  8. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Date: 10/11/01 12:40 PM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: Intensity and Failure

    Now this is where we start to get to the nitty gritty, but first I will
    have to cover some background stuff on fatigue...for this I am assuming
    that you have knoweldge of how energy is formed...if not let me know and
    I will post some info...
    ATP/Pc factors: Intramuscular levels of ATP fall rapidly during
    exercise...this is thought to be one of the major factors in fatigue...
    Creatine Phosphate levels fall rapidly at the onset of exercise, after a
    period of roughly 30 secs levels may be as low as 5% of the prexercise
    concentration. Consequenlty there wont be optimal levels of CP to
    replenish ATP stores.
    Creatine Phosphate fuels the ADP/ ATP conversion, as levels of CP
    decline levels of ATP get depleted.
    The ATP/PC system fuels the first few seconds of exercise...after which
    anaerobic glycolysis takes place... a buy product of glycolysis is
    Lactic acid, which casues a build-up in the muscle cells of Hydrogen
    ions (H+) raising the p.H.... Which affects the process that exposes
    actin cross-bridging sites (troponin) and permit muscle contraction. ATP
    formation is also affected.
    calcium ions (Ca++) are released from the sarcoplasmic reticulum by the
    T tubules during muscle contraction and returned by the Ca-Pump.
    Reduced sarcoplasmic Ca++ concentrations has been linked to fatigue.
    Declines in force that can be produced have been linked to declined
    levels of CA++ (Calcium ions). This is because decreased Ca++ released
    reduces the number of actin/myosin cross-bridges that can be formed.
    This is most likely to be due to impairement of the T-tubule. While
    exercising potassium ions (K+)build up in the T-tubules, this is due to
    the inability of the Na+K+ ATPase (breaks down ATP) Pump (sodium,
    potassium atpase pump) to maintain the proper Na+/K+ balance at the
    T-tubules. This affects the conduction of the action potential (these
    cause movement to occur...like an electrical impulse) to the
    sarcoplasmic reticulum, consequently Ca++ release is inhibited affecting
    one's capacity to contract a muscle. lactic acid again builds yup here
    and once again intracellular H+ concentrations increase, this then slows
    the uptake of Ca++ by the sarcoplasmic reticulum, because the H+ affects
    the pump. Therefore there is a marked reduction in levels of Ca++
    As should be obviuos ATP is broken and provides the energy for
    contraction (into ADP and Pi)this inorganic phosphate (Pi) builds up.
    Increased Pi levels are thought to inhibit further cross-bridges being
    formed between the filaments. As ATP is used to fuel the muscle
    contraction, Pi is released from the myosin head. Increased
    concentrations of Pi affects this from happening.

    Date: 10/11/01 02:02 PM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: RE: Intensity and Failure

    That being said I can now continue...HIT popularized by Mike mentzer
    (hope this doesnt open up the proverbial can of worms!)is based on the
    premise that If you don't take your sets to failure, then you are not
    presenting your body with the stimulus to adapt because you can
    perform the appropriate amount of reps. Therefore as you take your
    reps to failure, you are presenting the stimulus by forcing your body
    to cope with something that it cannot do (remeber the original post!).
    Consequently you adapt because you have forced yourself to do
    something that it simply cannot do...seems logical and simple right!
    But you have to ask yourself, why are so many powerlifters muscular if
    they dont train to failure? as with olympic lifters!
    ...I take you back to the theory of rate coding..essentially you fail
    in an exercise because there are not sufficiently rested muscle fibres
    to perform the task...at the end of the set the only fibres that arent
    fatigued are the low threshold high endurance motor units..which dont
    have the neccessary force producing capabilities to perform the work.
    I take you back now to the theory of supercompensation and the
    subesequent breakdown and buildup theory that dictates that muscle
    damage (catabolism) has to occur for the increase in proetin synthesis
    to occur!...
    ...Research has shown that the most muscle damage occurs during the
    negative paotion of the exercise (sarcomere popping!)...this is
    because less muscle fibres are recruited to perform the eccentric
    movemnt resulting in a greater stress on those fibres...consequently
    by increasing the time that the muscle fibres are under tension (most
    tension is generated during -ve portion) there in theory is a better
    stimulus for muscle growth! ... from this it seems that more tension
    can be generated by taking a set to failure than stopping short
    because it would take longer to perform! keep this in mind!
    ...Back to rate coding (seems pretty important doesnt it?) as the
    moment of failure draws closer the CNS will innervate all the motor
    units it can to perform the reps and fire them as often as it
    can...however as fatigue sets in there is a reduction in firing
    frequency (up to around 70-80% I think!), consequently the rate of
    twitching is not high enough to continue the exercise...thus failure
    ...back to neural factors...as a nueron fires it has to release the
    neurotransmitter Acetyl Choline so that the message can be
    carried...as mentioned previoulsy the electrical current is passed
    down the axon due to the na+ and K+ (when people refer to electrolites
    in sports drinks like gatorad, lucozade, these is what they are
    refering to), and the K+ Na+ atp ase pump... as failure approaches
    (lack of firing) the electrolites become taxed...as failure occurs
    these are virtually depleted...it is speculated that another of the
    major factors in fatigue is the inability of the motor neurons to
    create and release acetylcholine (ACh) fast enough so that
    transmission of the action potential can be maintained from the neron
    to the muscle...
    It can be said that ability to produce force is dependant on power
    speed and frequency of the 'electrical impulse elicited by the CNS to
    contract a muscle...as fatigue develops there is a mared decrease in
    the speed of these signals, as this occurs inhibitory mechanisms
    (mentioned previuos) stop further contrcations occuring....
    ...However due to emotional factors lke psyching oneself up it is
    possible to extend the time until these inhibitory mechanisms take
    effect(fight or flight syndrome)...there is a ditinct relationship
    between this and catecholamine levels...
    ...Therfore I hope that you can see that failure may not occur due to
    the peripheral (muscle) factors but the Central ones...failure may not
    be due to muscular fatigue but neural inhibition...the CNS does this
    for one simple reason: SO THAT IT CAN REST AND RECOVER!
    ...If we are to believe the supercompensation theory muscle fibers
    need to produce appropriate tension for a long enough period of time
    to cause damage breakdown...this has the effect of growth factors to
    be released in the cells Calcium levels within the cell must increase
    toperpetuate both Catabolism and the required anabolic effect. Growth
    stimuli may also be provided by the fatigue metabolites building up
    (phosphate and hydrogen ions) due to elevated levels of lactic acid .
    Please not that any of these reactions occurs because of muscular
    It may become evident that failure is actaully detrimental (note to
    John this would neccessiate the two factor theory, that has always
    been rejected by bodybuilders) because too much stress occurs
    (especially if inadequate rest intervals are used)...this would
    facilitate the increasing levels of fatigue resulting in a faster
    establishment of the Overtraining syndrome!
    Probably the main point to take away from this is intensity and rest
    should be monitored so to prevent the build up of fatigue and OTS
    ...Hope that wasnt too heavy I am drawing to a close soon on this
    thread...It could keep going on forever...but I hope that at least its
    made at least one person sit up and think about how they train and
    that its not as simple as going into the gym and picking up a few
    pieces of iron a few times....I hope you can bump this thread to keep
    it active so that other people get to read it!
  9. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Date: 12/04/01 04:53 PM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: I'll restart then...

    O.k Here I go again..I never realised that I was in demand LOL!!!
    Some more info to chew over....I'll start with some basic scientifically
    accpeted (I dont say proven becuase in science nothing is ever reall
    solid fact!!!)...I'll update as often as possible so I wont force a load
    of info down your throat on each post!!
    This will all relate to hypertophy...yeah the nitty gritty!!!
    factors affecting hypertophy!!!
    ...It seems pretty much solid that hypertophy is a form of
    supercompensation as a result of the stimulus thats placed on the
    musculature...theres like a million refernces for this...
    I'll start with a few interesting facts that may make you sit up and
    think a bit: during the average day the body turnsover (synthesis etc)
    3-4 grmas of protein per KG of BW (Check out work by Balolgopal - sp???
    and El-Khoury). Also, in the 'average' person muscle weighs 40-45% of
    BW, (skeletal muscle = 50% of total protein)...Muslce is made up of
    water and proteins in a ratio of around 4:1, 10kg of muscle = around 2kg
    of protein!!!!!!!
    Right then, if hypertophy is the response to stimuli, well this is based
    on supercompensation as I maentioned a while back. If thats the case
    then the growth is response to muscle breakdown/damage...when a muscle
    fibe is overloaded it gets damaged particulalry during eccentric
    contrcations...Muscle damage is massively mis understood, so I will
    cover it in a bit of detail...
    ...the major molecular chnages that occur are purported to be due to
    eccentric contractions (Protein syntheses etc)...
    MUSCLE DAMAGE high tensile stress (as in eccentrcics) causes the weak
    sarcomeres to pop, also leads to the adjacent sarcomeres to
    pop...however this also affects the fibres metabolically: 1)Damages
    Sarcoplasmic Reticulum, which may result in a loss of Calcium Iron
    homestasis (Calcium helps fuel contrcations) and may result in a loss of
    muscle fibres-yikes
    2) Streaming, broadening and total disruption of the z bands
    3) increase in temoperature of the muscle disrupting protein structures
    Delayed onset muscle soreness... Causes: 1) connective tissue damage, 2)
    muscle fibre shortening 3)Oedema Lasts - 24-48 hrs post exercise, fully
    disappears by day 7
    FORCE LOSS (of interest to the power guys!!!) for 3 days after intense
    ex. there is an immediate devrease in max muscle force, why??? well
    then: contractile element damage, altertaion in the sarcomere lengths
    (results in less x bridges that can be formed) 3) Psychological effect
    of pain and soreness...
    This may not seem relevant to you at first but this pretty much
    substantiates that intensity has to be monitored, you cant just go in an
    train intense...plus it also makes me suspect that muscle growth isnt
    just a result of increaased protein synthesis etc...
    Ill leave this post here and continue on a new one...it gets more

    Date: 12/04/01 05:12 PM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: RE: I'll restart then...

    The responses from training are specific to the type of training
    performed hence the specificity principle...
    The adaptation of muscle dictates that specific proteins are degraded
    and synthesised...myofibrillar proteins increase qite largely,
    mitochondrial proteins increase with endurance training!!!
    consequently the increase in intracellular aminos, particularly
    myofibrillar with protein degredation helps to replace the high
    ....Also, there maybe a possible migration of the ribosomes to the
    areas that are most affected by the tyoe or training performed (to
    utilse the degared proteins)...
    Well then if we are to use the info posted we can see that hypertophy
    is the result of poetine synthesis increases as a result of protein
    degredation...which is caused by muscle damage...the most muscle is
    damaged during eccentric exercise (more tension generated - because
    less motor unites are used so there is greater stress ion the
    individual fibres)...stretching has indeed been shown to help increae
    hypertophy... consequently, for short term succes then there must be
    sufficiebt stretch in the contrcatile elements (for facilitation of
    muscle damamge), and tension...consequenlty, there should be an
    emphasis on range of motion (to ensure stretch) and eccentric
    contrcation (for tension)for protein sunthesis ....
    Higher volumes of work appear to elicuit the best results (rep ranges
    of 5-8 and 10-12), for multiple sets....refer to the intensity posts
    for a review on optimal intenisty...
    I will be covering the practical side to a geater extent, this is just
    a taster!!! any questions...feel free to ask.

    Date: 12/04/01 06:16 PM
    Author: AnimalMass
    Subject: RE: RE: I'll restart then...

    O.k., I seem to be following you. To make sure
    though...Supercompensation IS the way to increase hypertrophy,
    however, the Supercompensation theory of beating the shit out of
    your muscles isn't nec what we're looking for, but more of a
    dual-factor theory?
    Also, what did you mean by reps of 5-8 and 10-12 are the best? Which
    is the best? - 5-8, or 10-12?

    Date: 12/04/01 06:21 PM
    Author: AnimalMass
    Subject: RE: RE: I'll restart then...

    Also, we want to imply full range of motion for the stretch,
    eccentric movement (nagatives), (but not to the point of absolute
    failure right? - ALso, how about time under tension?

    Date: 12/05/01 01:21 PM
    Author: AnimalMass
    Subject: RE: RE: I'll restart then...

    Just wanted to pass along JohnSmith's input.
    "animal, concerning the single and dual factor training theories
    you asked about earlier... i dont think the bodybuilding
    community has altogether ignored the latter... in fact i think
    that the HST that ******* has talked about seems to be taking
    advantage of this principle.
    basically the most real-world and practical advice i can give
    you concerning the dual factor theory is this.
    instead of thinking of each workout as one seperate "fatigueing"
    session, followed by a seperate "recovery" session of a day or
    two of rest... begin thinking in terms of weeks. in other words,
    you have one, or two or even three weeks which are "fatigueing"
    in other words you think of this time period just the same way
    as some people think of one workout. you accumulate fatigue the
    whole time, you never completely recover. then you have another
    time period of recovery. this is another one, two or three weeks
    in which you train with reduced frequency, volume, or intensity
    and allow recovery to take place. personally i favor keeping
    intensity high, drastically lowering volume, and slightly
    lowering frequency. in any event the overall training stress is
    so you have say two 3 week periods which you approach like you
    would have approached two days, one a workout day and one a rest
    now, of course in programming for elite athletes it gets much
    more complicated than thsi. you may also have a 6 month
    "overload" period, during which you have a series of 5 week
    periods each consisting of 3 weeks of hard work and 2 weeks of
    lower stress training. then you may have another 3 or 4 month
    period of "recovery" consisting of 1 week of "loading" or hard
    work, then 1 or 2 weeks of reduced training.
    all this may be superimposed upon 3 years of slightly harder
    overall work, in other words slightly higher volume overall...
    then 1 year of slightly lower volume. this fits into the fact
    that the olympics are every 4 years and athletes want to hit
    their highest performance at the olympics.
    the greeks do 3 loading weeks followed by 1 unloading week
    (approx 12 workouts a week during loading, and 9 workouts a week
    during unloading, also all weights are lowered by about 10kilos
    during the unloading week)... these are "loading" months, then
    every 4th month is an "unloading" month consisting of only 1
    loading week and 3 unloading weeks. close to a big competition
    like the olympics... they switch to alternating weeks, 1 loading
    week followed by 1 unloading week.
    however, to actually program sets and reps... this is very
    individual. what is unloading to me may be highly stressfull to
    you. but this is how training is programmed for the majority of
    athlets in sports other than BB and powerlifting. fatigue is
    gradually accumulated and then gradually disipated...
    i would encourage you or anyone else to take a look at the HST
    training protocol... as it is the first BB specific program i
    have ever seen that seems to be set up on these principles.
    people doing it seem to be making gains, so i assume it is the
    correct volume for a majority of bbers... of course individual
    adjustment is usually required with programs like this.
    personally... when adjusting volume for individuals i am lucky
    in that i can use testosterone/cortisol ratios from weekly blood
    draws and also glutamine/glutamate ratios to assist in
    determining the stress level of the training for an individual
    athlete. this allows me to be pretty precise in loading an
    athlete to his limit without crossing the line into real
    overtraining... then determining the correct volume of training
    for the unloading period so that recovry takes place without any
    detraining. unfortunately i doubt any of you have the rescources
    to do this or the expertise to interpret the data correctly if
    you did have access to it.
    HOWEVER... i do have some "rule of thumb" guidlines... during
    loading, if you are capable of setting personal records... your
    not loading hard enough. on the other hand, if performance falls
    below 85% for more than one or two workouts in a row... then you
    need to lighten the load. the length of the loading period is
    also individual. start with one week to 10 days... after youve
    gone through a couple of cycles experiment with 2 and 3 week
    loading periods. very few people can handle a 3 week loading
    period. i know i cant. howeer the bulgarians and greeks do, so i
    know some great athletes can do it, and maybe some of you can.
    as far as unloading... you should be approaching peak
    performance after 7-10 days of unloading... you should have peak
    performance somewhere between 14 and 21 days of unloading. you
    dont always want to allow peak performance. you may want to
    follow 2 or 3 consecutive loading cycles without every allowing
    complete recover during unloading, if you are really advanced...
    however i dont recomend this for beginners to this type of
    training... load then unload long enough to set new personal
    records... allow another week or two to get good and rested then
    load again.
    hope this helps explain how this is used in the real world...
    sorry but its just impossible to get into sets and reps on a
    specific basis... but if you copied the 8 week squat program i
    posted several times a while back this is an example of this
    type of training, and its a proven and result producing

    Date: 12/05/01 02:11 PM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: RE: RE: I'll restart then...

    Interesting...I wasnt aware of HST before
    ...Its good that the dual factor theory is being integreated
    into thinking...a Large proportion of research pertaining to
    training is based on the one factor theory, hence a lot of the
    fundamentals being based on supercomp...and overload...I have
    always though there was much more to it personally,
    ...I will bump JS's advice simply put because he is correct...

    ...HST may work for you, try it..rember the individualisation
    principle, tailor it to yourself as you know your body best...

    ...The majority of research speculates that within the rep
    ranges of 5-8 and 10-12 the most hypertrophy occurs, dont take
    this as gospel, chances are this is more related to TUT, and
    extraneous variables than a specific no. of reps...I will
    cover TUT next along with a few other things...
    I will post back later...busy at the mo.
  10. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Also John,
    I remember a post from a few months ago that you did
    about cyclign intensity. (Actualy we talked about it
    alot.) Unfort. all was lost when meso went down.
    Anyway, I just wondered how that fit into the scheme if
    you said you like to keep intensity high even during
    deloading, - but if I recall, the intensity cycle was
    about a ten week example that cycled intensity up at a
    peak around week 5, then tapered down and deloaded for a
    Also, if I'm supposed to fatigue at a maximum of 3 weeks
    straight, then rest/ deload, how does the intensity
    cycling fit into the plan?

    Date: 12/07/01 07:17 PM
    Author: AnimalMass
    Subject: RE: RE: I'll restart then...

    getting close to three days with no posts from Angel.
    Where are ya bro?

    Date: 12/07/01 09:55 PM
    Author: AnimalMass
    Subject: RE: RE: I'll restart then...


    Date: 12/08/01 11:18 AM
    Author: Angel Face (no profile)
    Subject: RE: RE: I'll restart then...

    Sorry mate, been well busy as of late....
    Time under tension specifically towards
    hyertrophy...well this theory, popularised by
    charles Poliquin and Ian King mainly, is
    surprisingly simple to implement and
    understand...yet will help produce good results..
    ...easy, if we rember that there is an inverse
    relationship between a mucle fibres power producing
    capacities and endurance capabilities then its
    pretty obvious that there is a relationship between
    time and optimal training... sets and reps take
    place over time (well duhhh!!!) hopefully you will
    see that it is more precise to relate load and time
    together as opposed to load and reps/sets....
    ...counting reps may not actually be the indicator
    of the amount of work that you have performed...if
    anything reps are simply a marker or reference
    point, if we look at the equation work = force x
    distance...well a rep tells you that you've
    performed work...but not how much...
    ...for instance, on the bench you've got an
    indicidual who benches 300lbs for 5 reps, the
    eccentric takes 2 seconds and the conecntric takes
    1, there is no pause...conversley take another
    exmaple of an indivdual who performs 300lbs for 5
    reps however, his eccentric takes 5 seconds with a
    one second pause at the bottom...concentric takes 3
    seconds....who do you think has performed more work?
    however they are both moving the same amount of
    weight for the same amount of reps...also who will
    have the better 1 rm and chest development
    ...its pretty simple...also, think of kinetic energy
    and momentum, during a fast eccentric you are
    building up kinetic energy (Kinetic energy is energy
    due to motion) which have a rebounbd effect meaning
    that the momentum created by the fast eccentric
    translates into an easier concentric....meaning that
    more weight will be moved.....I refere you to the
    concept of kinetic energy again, kinetic energy
    increases due to an increase in accleration ie a
    faster eccentric (momentum is the product of mass
    and velocity, force mathematically can be
    represented as a rate of change of momentum...as
    momentum decreases so does velocity)...basically
    what this means is that due to the decreases in
    accelertion and momentum kinetic energy decreases
    which means that it is harder to move an object...(I
    hate kinematics!!!!!!)
    in the previous example if individual no 2 were to
    perform a set of 5 reps with a 2 second eccentric
    and 1 second concentric then the amount of weight
    that the individual will shift will be a lot more
    than 300lbs.
    ...say someone performs a set of 10 with a speed of
    3 secs per rep then the total TUT would be 30
    seconds for that set...if an individual performed a
    set of 5 with a 6 second speed, the TUT would be the
    same....if strength improvements are to have occured
    then the amount of time is a very important
    factor... an increase in strength can only be
    accurate if either the weight has increased with TUT
    and reps the same... or if the load remains constant
    and reps and TUT increased. But, if in a set TUT
    (total not per rep) was the same, as does
    load...however the reps increased then it may be
    that an individual has actually regressed slightly
    because per rep the amount of work performed hs
    decreased to perform the rep....remeber the
    accomodation principle mentioned a while ago....it
    states that if a stimulus was to remain contant,
    after initial adaptations accor then the amount of
    gain declines over time....this is an example of
    ...so then what is the optimal TUT... generally for
    optimal muscle growth, a muscle should be under
    tension for between 40 and 70
    (approx)seconds....however this does not have to be
    on a single set....
    ...absolute TUT is also a factor, so then 3 x 10
    with a total TUT for the each set of 40 seconds
    equals 120 seconds of total TUT, however 6 x 5 with
    a TUT of 20 seconds for each set equals the same
    absolute TUT of 120 seconds.
    ...Basically, monitor time, it can be extremeley
    beneficial, by implementing a few of the ideas I
    have mentioned here you add to the arsenal of
    variety....periodise TUT like anything else!!!

    Date: 12/21/01 03:04 AM
    Author: dharmendra . c. desai (no profile)
    Subject: thanks and please

    Hi you geniuses angelface and animalmass you guys are truely
    smart gentlemen . I would like to thank you from the bottom of
    my heart mates. I live in India and hence do not have access
    to many hard cover books. I do get magazines here but
    generally after 2 or 3 months of them being out in the states.
    hence those wonderful books you are talking about are
    unreachable to me.I cant even order them because the dollor to
    rupee conversion will kill me (i.e) I cannot efford them. I
    cannot put into words how greatful i am to you people for
    making me familiar with so much of scientific information uch
    simplistic language this is an absolutly wonderful thread so
    please keep it going.And please keep me informed I know you
    guys are busy people but I also know you are good people.
    (p.s like angel face said lets use this thread as a text book
    , right so please do not fight over small misunderstandings
    (specially you liquid ? relax mate what you and angle and
    animal are saying is the same thing only you are putting it in
    a diffrint language rather crude but different so dont fight
    and keep me posted

    Date: 12/22/01 03:57 PM
    Edited: 12/22/01 04:03 PM
    Author: Ramstein (no profile)
    Subject: Question on theory

    Do you think that the supercompensation theory just makes more sense for
    hypertrophy training? I agree that the dual factor training theory
    mentioned makes more sense in a performance based training protocol,
    however, if muscle damage is the key to hypertrophy, then high
    volume-minded workouts must be the key to success for bodybuilding. If
    volume is the key to hypertrophy, then long brutal muscle damage
    followed by "long" rest periods must be the norm, thus the four day
    split workouts you see in Flex magazine etc..
    I can attest to how effective dual factor theory training is for
    increased performance, as can any other athlete who has had to run
    sprints daily with great fatigue from previous practices. Despite the
    accumulation of fatigue we got faster and in better condition. But if
    you're saying that muscle damage is the key to hypertrophy, i just don't
    see how this practice could make sense. It seems you would have to time
    the wave right based on supercompensation. Your thoughts?

    Date: 12/22/01 04:10 PM
    Author: Ramstein (no profile)
    Subject: Why you get bigger

    two reasons: you get stronger OR you force your muscles to do more work.
    Allow me to explain: you can get bigger (hypertrophy) by lifting the
    same weight over and over again. For example, if you can bench press
    200lbs 10 times in a set and keep increasing your number of sets using
    the same weight with same reps you'd get bigger until you do so much
    volume that you overtrain. for example I go to the gym and week 1 bench
    200lbs 10 reps for 2 sets, 4 days later 10 reps for 3 sets, 4 days later
    10 reps for 4 sets, etc.., Eventually the weight will have to increase.
    You can also cause muscle growth by getting stronger without increasing
    volume. That's why 1 set workouts also cause hypertrophy. For example if
    I can keep adding weight to my 1 set of bench presses my muscles will
    grow. right? two different forms of workouts to accomplish the same
    There is no disputing that progressive resistance seems to be most
    correlated to muscle growth despite the volume used to achieve it.

    Date: 12/24/01 02:29 AM
    Author: dharmendra .c. desai
    Subject: RE: A few question.

    I agree that there are more than one ways to trigger hypertrophy. but
    are both method volume and intensity equally effective.If one's
    traning goal is the achievement of hypertrophy,and both methods are
    supposed to be equally effective then isint it better to do the
    minimum work required to induce hypertrophy.why do any more than
    needed. I think that it is inmtensity which is the key to the
    achievemennt of hypertrophy.since muscles fire on all or nothing basis
    it is the intense contraction that is going to recruit more fibres.
    not the prolonged one.Also while planning a traning regime is musclar
    hypertrophy the only parogative to be used . what about the effects of
    traning on the C.N.S and the endocrine system. how much considaration
    do they deserve.withen the muscle cell there is hypertrophy of the
    contractile elements as well as the mitocondria, are they corelated or
    do they respond to different types of stimulee.what about connective
    tissue and tendons we know there adaptation to stress is slower to
    that of the muscles shold they not be considered to. what about
    hyperplasia should that be taking into considaration.
  11. Dschingis

    Dschingis Junior Member


    the links arent working.
  12. Bob Smith

    Bob Smith Member

    The links are directed to the old board, which can no longer be accessed. I think the links were simply to the actual post that Phreezer copied over, so youre not missing out on any of the discussion.
  13. Antanas

    Antanas Junior Member

    Wow there is some good reading here, one of the only good places on the net.

    It does get complicated but hey- its great.

  14. johnsteve

    johnsteve Junior Member

    This site fully contains useful tips to develop our bodies.Its very useful for bodybuilders and gym masters and they students.


    Link Building
  15. panamega

    panamega Junior Member

    The links are dead and the posts seem to be incomplete :( Is there a link to all the posts in their entirety
  16. shtstica

    shtstica Junior Member

    My name is Bryan Haycock. I’m posting this because I’ve noticed a few “HST” threads on the board. Although it may seem that I'm "new" here, I've actually been here for many years now. I am grateful to the owner of the then “Mesomorphosis” a great deal for his support early on in my writing career. I started posting here when it was Mesomorphosis.com. Anyway, I've been busy over at another website for the last year or so and haven't been around much.

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