Building the perfect cycle

Discussion in 'Steroid Forum' started by Hypertrophiac, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. #1
    Hypertrophiac

    Hypertrophiac Junior Member

    With all the different steroids and designer steroids out now, its time to get down to whats really important....what works well with what, and what doesnt? As you know, some steroids do their work at the receptor like Deca and some do their work apart from the receptor like Dbol. Theoretically, a combination of receptor and non-receptor mediated steroids as well as a balance of androgen/anabolic ratios would you optimal. So lets hear your knowledge and opinions.
     
  2. #2
    Fronkthis

    Fronkthis Junior Member

    Good topic, id like to see alot of replies.

    Class 1 steroids exhibit thier actions through AR binding
    examples of such are Nandrolone, Trenbolone, Primobolan, and anavar.

    Class 2 steroids exhibit thier actions through pathways other than the AR.
    examples of such are anadrol, dianabol, Winstrol.

    testosterone has both Class 1 and 2 properties.

    Class 1 stacks well with Class 2, theres the Deca/Dbol stack right there.
    Add in a testosterone for libido purposes and to increase overall protein synthesis would futher increase the synergy and allow lower doses of the other drugs being used.

    There is a excerpt from BTPB by L.rea which talks about constructing a max androgen phase.

    He has it broken down to:
    1) A good testosterone.
    2) a High Androgen examples would be tren or Dbol
    3) a high anabolic example Deca, EQ, or winstrol.

    But you also have to think of individual reactions, and the fact that many hormones have other propeties such as raising CP stores, RBC count, etc.

    Common cycles seen on anabolic boards usually look like this.

    Bulker - Drol/Dbol kickstart, Test and a high anabolic/mild androgen.
    Cutter - Low dose test, High androgen, High anabolic/mild androgen, with the last 4 weeks usually being an winstrol or anavar.

    Those seem to be working well.

    I have to leave I may check this again later.
     
  3. #3
    Hypertrophiac

    Hypertrophiac Junior Member

    lets see if anyone can dig up info on some of the other ones such as equipoise, masteron, Turinabol, Furazabol, Halotestin, etc.

    I'm trying to really find out how many and which steroids you can stack together that each have individual and synergistic effects, while not being overkill and taking two different types of juice that basically do the same thing. For instance, we all know that taking dbol, anadrol, test, deca, and equipoise in a cycle wouldn't be optimal....but where is the line drawn?

    Also, another thing i've been wondering is if you take too many class1 AR binding steroids together, do the ones that bind stronger to the AR like trenbolone kick off the ones that bind weaker to the AR like test or nandrolone? kind of like proviron will kick test off of SHBG allowing more free test. becuase if a steroid only has weak non-AR mediated results and is competing with a steroid with stronger AR binding, then if it gets kicked off the AR its theoretically going to waste right?
     
  4. #4
    Adogg4

    Adogg4 Junior Member


    dude im guessing this is your first cycle

    just run 500mg/week of test and youll be fine
     
  5. #5
    Hypertrophiac

    Hypertrophiac Junior Member


    you dont read the board too often do you? i've done plenty of cycles. and if you re-read my original post you'll see this is somewhat of an advanced question. That might be why Sev was one of the only people to responsd so far.

    Since i've been at work all day i'll take the time to give my opinions now illustrated by alot of examples:

    Person A) does a cycle of 500mg Test, 300mg Deca, 300mg EQ per week. Test has a 1/1 AA ratio, i think deca has a 5/1 ratio, and EQ probably has something like a 7/1 ratio but is weaker than deca or test by strength comparison. For instance, if judging by Anabolic to Androgenic ratios and mulitplied by their potency, 300mg of EQ gives the same anabolic effect as 200mg of Deca.....so is this cycle the same as taking 500mg of Test and 500mg of Deca per week? Alot of people say Deca and EQ are similar in anabolic effect with only slight differences in water retention and libido. If Deca and EQ both were to have AR mediated effects would they work synergisticly or just compete for the same receptor binding? Also, this looks like a very anabolic cycle and plenty of receptor mediated effects but would adding something more androgenic as well to balance out the ratio make this cycle more productive?

    Person B) does a cycle of 300mg of masteron, 300mg Fina, and 300mg Test per week. Masteron and Fina are extremely androgenic...probably 5-10 times as androgenic as test. This seems like a very androgenic cycle and the Mast and Fina are very AR mediated, but is an anabolic like Deca, EQ or Primo needed? Test and Fina are very anabolic themselves. Fina is at least 10 times as anabolic as testosterone....but are they anabolic enough to keep up with the androgenic effects of this cycle?

    Person C) does a cycle of Dbol, Deca, Test, Primo, Fina and Winstrol. Now we have a cycle that has instead of 3 different steroids - 6 different ones. Each are different in their own way...Dbol is not receptor mediated, Deca is receptor mediated, Test is both. Primo is super anabolic, but not androgenic. Winstrol is Androgenic but not very anabolic. Fina is very androgenic and Anabolic. So since this cycle sounds so balanced from both the perspective of the AR or non-AR binding as well as anabolic to androgenic ratios, does that mean this is the ultimate cycle? Or does mixing all of these steroids together just cause them to compete for the certain ways that they hold their effects on the body....and will the most potent steroid win therefore wasting the less potent ones? (kind of like the competition for the AR by Test and DHT or for SHBG by Proviron and Test)

    I'm trying to really get people to think and dispose of some of the myths and heresay that goes with designing steroid cycles and look to what makes sense. Why not get the most out of our juice? If we all put our heads together there is enough collective information on this board to optimize our juice combinations in our cycles so everybody keeps making better and better gains each cycle instead of always chasing the muscle-bound dragon (metaphorically).
     
  6. #6
    Hypertrophiac

    Hypertrophiac Junior Member

    Another thing to think about when you put all this into perspective is if a person has enough juice to do 6 weeks of 3 steroids stacked together, then switch to 3 other steroids for the next 6 weeks....would this be more productive than taking all 6 steroids in half their weekly doses, together, for the full 12 weeks?

    you're using the same amount of gear over the same 12 week period, but what is more important.....weekly doses of each steroid, or synergism between all the 6 different steroids? keep in mind, that if for instance the mg/ml of each steroid were the same then your total weekly doses would not change at all.
     
  7. #7
    Hypertrophiac

    Hypertrophiac Junior Member

  8. #8
    Fronkthis

    Fronkthis Junior Member

    Hyper - again great posting.
    I have heard alot of vets got banned from meso. That might be why me and you are pretty much just talking to each other.

    I see all of your points, and I think it just proves the only way to know for sure is to experiment.

    I have heard EQ/Deca stack is pointless because they are too similar in action.
    Then I have also heard they are better for your joints combined because Deca causes more joint lubrication, and EQ ups collagen synthesis (or vice versa).

    I also wonder about using 3 androgenic coumpounds at once like tren/masteron/test. I would assume that you would saturate your recptors pretty quickly, this might attribute to gains slowing down signifcantly.
    And would also lead to more sides.

    I really wish more would get into this topic, as alot can be learned just by looking at the synergy between compounds.

    When I have more time tonight I will post more of my thoughts.

    Hyper you also have mail my friend.
     
  9. #9
    AaronS889

    AaronS889 Junior Member

    GREAT GREAT GREAT post. Now if we could only get some answers. Hyper, you read my mind... this is a topic I've been wanting to post about for a while, but wasn't sure if I'd get a answer worth a shit. Lets keep this thread bumped. I'm going to PM RexFeral, and see if he can add anything.

    Keep this bumpped.

    Aaron
     
  10. #10
    KoKing

    KoKing Junior Member

    Would it really be beneficial to run deca for only 6 weeks and then run eq for the next 6 weeks? To maximise the compounds, shouldnt you run them for 8-10 weeks then switch it up. The flip side is you would be running 16-20 weeks cycles, not saying theres anything wrong with that because your body will be prepared and capable of holding the new extra weight. An example cycle could be like this:

    Week 1-10 Deca
    Week 1-6 Dbol
    Week 1-20 Test
    Week 7-13 tren Enan
    Week 11-19 EQ
    Week 14- 20 anavar, Winny, or Turinabol

    Run hcg around week 10 and at the end of the cycle, and arimidex, nolvadex, or clomid accordingly.

    (I purposely didnt put the does of the compounds because that differs with experience, and such of the user.)
     
  11. #11
    ImaBldr

    ImaBldr Junior Member

    Nice post......wish I had something to add, but I'm still learning & this is the type of post I came here looking for in the first place! TTT
     
  12. #12
    Duckhombre

    Duckhombre Junior Member

    Stacking Cycles?

    KoKong made an interesting point with doing a bulker then switching to a semi-cutter. Has anyone done this? Will changing chemicals mid cycle jump start growth again? Somebody that knows the biology better can fill me in.



    PS What happed to all the vets?
     
  13. #13
    Griffin

    Griffin Junior Member

    You are right about that but you could run npp and bold prop something like this.

    1-12 test prop
    1-6 npp
    7-12 bold prop

    I never tried it but was wondering if it might be a good cycle.
     
  14. #14
    PUMPED101

    PUMPED101 Junior Member

    There has been for a while a lot of disagreement on wether a Deca & EQ cycle would be beneficial or not....

    over several years of being on various boards....i have seen a several threads and posts here and there of good bros vet and mods who actually completed a cycle of deca and eq and thought the results were well worth using both compounds together...a few reasons why they said it was worth it, one was by taking both deca and EQ you can take lower dosages of each...therefore keeping the side effects down that you would get at higher dosages of taking either one by itself..but getting the same benefits as taking a high dose of EQ or Deca , another reason is for maximum protection of the joints,ligaments, and tendons.

    I have tried to go back and find the posts and threads by the other vets and mods...but most of the boards have been changed over that i saw the thread on...i remembered i had read something a mod had written on EQ and Deca stack...but could not remember exactly what is was...but good old Chippy...before he got banned remembered it more clearly than i had... Hogg wrote something like : "deca helps to increase intrs-synovial fluid (in the joints) while the eq provided for optimized collagen (tendons and ligaments) synthesis. the 2 worked synergistically to provide joint and tendon protection"



    I have always wanted to try the stack so i am

    2 weeks into my current cycle
    1000 mgs a of test wk 1
    750 mgs of test wks 2-15
    400 mgs of EQ wks 1-14
    450 mgs of Deca wks 1-10
    winny or anavar oral wks 12-17

    anti e's and pct of course

    I will etl everyone know the outcome

    Stay Safe
    PUMPED101
     
  15. #15
    PUMPED101

    PUMPED101 Junior Member

    bumpin it to the top...good thread here meso..read up
     
  16. #16
    AaronS889

    AaronS889 Junior Member

  17. #17
    KoKing

    KoKing Junior Member

    Heres a couple of good cycles that worked:

    Deca
    Test
    tren Enan
    Oral Turinabol
    *One of the best cycles for quality gains I got thus far.

    Or

    Deca
    Test
    DBall

    Or

    Test Prop
    EQ
    Winny

    Note: I didnt put the doses because if you dont know what they should be for you, you probably shouldnt be doing this anyway.
     
  18. #18
    phatboy1

    phatboy1 Junior Member

    good lord bros. i feel like in a chemistry class. different people respond differently. you just have to experiment a little. i knew a guy that got nothing from test. there was a guy on here that gained 5lbs from 100mg of drol.
     
  19. #19
    cjayl

    cjayl Junior Member

    Need help with first cycle.

    I was able to get my hands on 300mg of Deca QV, 40 25mg tablets of Proviron and 30 50mg tabs of clomid. After reading this site for a day I realized that, I didn't know what I was doing when I bought this stuff. I was thinking of getting some sust. from one of the advertisers on this site or going south of the border. Could you guy's help me figure out how best I could build a cycle? I'm 5' 9" 200lbs and a little high on the BF (22%?). I would like to get a little harder/leaner with good gains while not adding too much hair to my back. LOL :D
     
  20. #20
    Ronin_

    Ronin_ Junior Member

    Well id consider not just AR non AR but also effects on

    1.joints

    2.the endocrine system and the

    3.CNS

    I would use ideally medium dose test 500mg/week. 600-800mg of primo + 200mg equipoise + 40mg of anavar a day. For more bulking add a little more test but those doses are enough for most needs.

    This cycle for me at least would have minimum injury risks, great strength, great cosmetic effect, little water retention and no heavy imapct on the endocrine system like deca and tren has.

    Secondly GOOD intermittent use of hcg 500 iu twice a week every week until a week before clomid therapy is essential for max kept gains and a healthy hormonal system after.

    Finish off with anavar and prop for a quick crossover to your pct and you have it
     

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