Comprehensive Guide to PCT

Discussion in 'Steroid Post Cycle Therapy and ASIH Treatment' started by ApeShitFuckJacked, Apr 3, 2014.

  1. Comprehensive Guide to pct - Revised 04-05-2014 at 23:15 GMT

    Proper PCT Protocol

    PCT should only begin when the body is in an environment to stimulate LH and FSH secretion. In the case of testosterone this environment is achieved once TT begins to dip below pre cycle TT levels. Therefore not only to judge when pct has been successful but also to determine when pct should begin Pre-cycle blood levels should be taken.

    How do we determine when TT levels fall below baseline aside from experiencing side effects or getting blood drawn every week?

    As we know TT is directly related with the amount of exogenous testosterone we administer. In TRT studies it is generally excepted that a 100mg shot of testosterone enanthate/cyp will put blood levels at around 800-900ng/dl.
    We can thus use this conversion with decent accuracy to judge at what mg TT levels will fall below baseline. (The conversion ratio somewhat lessens as doses increase therefore we should air on the side of caution when determining the optimal test mg target)

    For example if pre-cycle levels are 500ng/dl then PCT should only begin when exogenous test falls to roughly 50mg. This will put TT in the 400-500ng/dl range and thus in a state where HPTA stimulation of FSH and LH release begins to become possible.

    Now that we understand how to determine optimal Mg range of ex Test for HPTA restoration we must now find the length of time required to reach said levels after the last injection. To do this we must first understand Half lives of the varying esters and the variation they can have with each individual's physiology. Some users metabolize AAS more quickly or more slowly than others therefore we can only identify an average. Ill give one practical example of the commonly used ester Enanthate.

    Enanthate has a half life of 5 days +/- 2.5 days (I will use a 7 day calculation to air on the side of caution)

    A 12wk cycle of test e at 500mg per week will put ex Test at around 1000mg
    (500mg+250+125+62.5+31.25 etc = 1000mg)

    This means it will take 5 half lives to reach ex test at or below 50mg therefore time between last injection and start of PCT is 35 days.

    It would be worthwhile to determine your own metabolization rate by taking a blood test after the 4th AVERAGE half life has passed. (In this case it would be at 20 days) Based on TT levels at this point you can determine YOUR half life.

    Now that we understand how to accurately calculate a PCT start date based on our own physiology, what should an effective pct consist of?

    hcg may be used during cycle and is consider to be a better option by many. There is a bill Roberts article that you may refer to on the subject. He suggests 500iu EOD throughout the cycle. If you did not use HCG during your cycle, here is a variation of Dr. Scally's PCT protocol for AAS users (his experience and expertise speaks for itself)

    HCG 2000iu E3D for 14 days before pct start date

    PCT start

    1-35 clomiphene 50mg morning and night
    1-45 tamoxifen 20mg morning and night

    1-45 low dose of exemestane 12.5mg E3D (Optional)

    The combination of clomid and nolva has been shown to provide better results than when compared alone. Clomid has a slightly different MOA than Nolva And Torem if you must use Torem in your PCT it should be a substitute for Nolva not Clomid. An equivalent dose of Torem for 40mg Nolva would be 120mg.

    This PCT will give you the best chance at achieving and maintaining pre cycle TT levels rapidly after cessation of treatment for all AAS cycles under 25 weeks of suppression. PCT requirements vary depending on the user and mainly length of shutdown.

    Post pct bloods should be taken approximately 2-3 weeks after cessation of treatment to ensure restoration has been achieved without further aid from SERM's. If restoration has not been achieved restart this PCT or better yet, CONSULT A PHYSICIAN!

    Switching To Short Chain Esters

    A largely overlooked factor that can greatly aid in maintaining gains, reducing HPTA shutdown length or extending a cycle without lengthening HPTA shutdown is switching from Long ester AAS to short ester AAS toward the end of the cycle. When done correctly this reduces the amount of time that users must wait to start PCT and/or increases the amount of time TT levels stay supra-physiological.

    Here is a practical example of how to perform a switch to Test P from a regular 12 week cycle of Test E allowing us to extend it to 16 weeks. (In both cases length of shutdown is still 17 weeks)

    First we must calculate our pct start date. For this example we will be using 750mg test e a week. With Ex test at about 1500 5 half lives have to pass to reach below 50mg. A PCT start date of 35 days is again warranted. Therefore we will start test p injections 35 days or 5 weeks before the end of the cycle.

    Week 1-11 Test e 750mg
    Week 13 Test p 400mg
    Week 14 Test p 600mg
    Week 15-16 Test p 700mg

    Test p half life 2 days +/- 18hours (I will use a 2.5 day calculation)

    PCT start 7 days

    Tapering the test p injections upward in this fashion will ensure that TT levels do not spike dramatically when the shorter more quickly metabolized half life is introduced.

    As we can see This will apply the same length of shutdown to the HPTA (17 weeks in both cases) but you will be able to extend the amount of time TT levels remain supra physiological.

    Or if you would like you can use this method to shorten HPTA suppression length by removing the extra weeks of injections and starting test p from weeks 8-12. (13 weeks of shutdown instead of 17)
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  2. tubesox

    tubesox Member

    sticky
     
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  3. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    In need of some corrections, but on the path. I'll be back.

    But, are these actual studies. If so, link.
    FWIW: I find some numbers not believable.

     
  4. thanks looking forward to the corrections

    Once we receive dr scallys input I will ask Millard to sticky this thread.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
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  5. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    What about those examples! Link?
     
  6. I pulled the study off another forum but I cannot find the original I gave up and removed it from the final draft. I would just rather not include it at this point. I'm tired of researching deca.
     
  7. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    I understand the concept of switching to TP, but really shortens the cycle when compared to TC/TE 750 for 12 weeks. Why not stay at 12 weeks, thus maintaining good levels and use hcg after the last pin while the testosterone clears. As you lay out, the testosterone will be declining during the TP. Is there some need to rush the cycle.
     
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  8. Burrr

    Burrr Member AnabolicLab.com Supporter

    [​IMG]

    Ape, I'm confused about how you come up with estimated exogenous test.
    Your estimates seem way low when compared to the typical mid cycle blood work.
    I'm used to seeing 500mg a week of Test get blood serum up to 4000 ng/dl.

    (after reading more, I see you are measuring in mg, not in ng/dl)
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
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  9. No there is no NEED but if a user would like, this approach essentially allows him to keep TT levels elevated while not suppressing the HPTA for any longer period of time.

    For example, a regular 12 week cycle of test e may be extended to 16 weeks. During those extra 4 weeks of shooting test p TT is significantly higher than what declining test e TT levels would be alone.

    Essentially this approach is more beneficial for muscular development. (Unless you are not extending the cycle then it becomes a benefit to recovery as there is less length of HPTA shutdown. Correct?)

    This is just my opinion based on what I know. I'm assuming 17 weeks of shutdown would cause recovery to be slower than 13 weeks of shutdown. Or is this amount of time insignificant?
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  10. I did it based off the fact 100mg shot of test e per week usually puts levels between 800-900ng/dl according to some TRT patients on the board. I have seen this figure many times.

    There are diminishing returns in regards to the conversion of ex test to TT.
    IMO This is why it appears my calculation is off. You really cannot compare 500mg to 50mg in terms of TT.
     
  11. Burrr

    Burrr Member AnabolicLab.com Supporter

    Ape, thanks for clearing that up.
    Regarding elevated E2 during pct, does the clomid appear as E2 on blood work or is it actual E2?
    If it is real E2, is it simply the increased TT that is leading to conversion?
    Do the elevated E2 levels warrant an AI use during PCT, or is it just a manageable side effect of serms?
     
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  12. Burrr

    Burrr Member AnabolicLab.com Supporter

    I've seen a few different interpretations of half lives while reading up on pct.
    I came across something called the rule of 5's, stating that 5 half lives will generally take the level to 0
    That would tell me that 35 days is little too long to wait.

    If we apply the half life to the test measured in ng/dl we could take 4000ng/dl starting level, week one 2000 ng/dl, week two 1000 ng/dl, and week three 500ng/dl.

    If 500 ng/dl is a good level to begin PCT, would this mean week 3 is time to start?
     
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  13. IRQ_001

    IRQ_001 Member

    two questions:

    1) Why are we splitting the nolva and clomid into morning and night? They both have long half lives - Five days if I'm not mistaken.

    2) Should we treat tren in the same manner as we treat Deca given that they are both Nandrolone based compounds?

    IRQ
     
  14. Mike Oxbig

    Mike Oxbig Member

    It's actual E2 caused by aromatization when the TT increases.

    I personally like incorporating low dose a-dex into PCT.

    The isomer in Clomid that exhibits most of the effects has a half life of around 24 hours.

    No, tren doesn't have metabolites that cause suppression after the compound has cleared.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
  15. ^^^^ I agree with all of this except I cannot say for sure on tren metabolites but i cannot say for sure on other metabolites as well. If there were serious problems with tren and HPTA shutdown I believe I would have heard about it by now.

    Thanks mike.
     
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  16. And burr your applying half life directly to TT, once again it cannot be done like this because of diminishing returns. If you were to only wait 3 weeks your ex test levels would most likely be about 125mg.

    This would put TT levels close to 1000ng in many users. Obviously still out of range for recovery.
     
  17. tacohuman

    tacohuman Member

    Will any info on torem be added to this? From what I can tell there is far less info out there about it. Seems to typically be used as a replacement for nolva, but I have read of one person replacing clomid with torem and run torem+nolva. I'm definitely still learning and this thread and the previous helped immensely
     
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  18. MythotiK

    MythotiK Member AnabolicLab.com Supporter

    I will be running Torem-nolva
     
  19. tacohuman

    tacohuman Member

    Yup you were the one I saw. What dosages are you using (I didn't see it listed in your cycle log)? Have you used this combo before? clomid gets less than rave reviews so I'm curious about possible alternatives.
     
  20. The first post will be edited today and I may include a torem option but it will depend upon him much time I have to research it.