dopamine sensitivity

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by DAVID, Sep 28, 2006.

  1. DAVID

    DAVID Junior Member

    After many year's of HRT like testosterone or deprenyl, you increase dopamine level.
    But you can have a dopamine insensitivity like ADD people.
    What the best strategy to increase the sensitivity of dopamine ?
    Some recommends NAC (N. Acetylcysteine) ...
    Thank for your help...
  2. HeadDoc

    HeadDoc Psychologist

    this is not a widespread problem that we've discussed. Is it a widespread problem? Do you have any research on this or is it on personal experience alone? I do take the later seriously. Are you inquiring about physiologic levels of testosterone or beyond?
  3. DAVID

    DAVID Junior Member

    After some year's of Test therapy, I don't have the good feeling rush of dopamine the day you take it. I hope that Marianco help for this problem.
    May be there are a down regulation of DA receptors ? and there are a strategy tto increase DA sensitivity ?
  4. marianco

    marianco Doctor of Medicine

    The following is fairly speculative.

    High levels of testosterone for long periods of time, can, I think, result in tolerance to the higher levels of dopamine in the brain. The initial almost euphoric feeling that initial TRT can eventually wane to a lesser level. When at hypogonadal levels for a long time, there may be suprasensitivity to dopamine that develops from the dopamine deficit of hypogonadism. This contributes to the high that results from TRT at the onset.

    A problem for testosterone therapy is that there is no therapy that really mimics the daily fluctuations in testosterone production. Testosterone tends to be highest in the morning and fall gradually through the day. This means the dopamine levels in the brain will also follow a similar pattern. Testosterone treatment generally follows either a many day decay in level after a large peak (e.g. injections) or a very steady state level (e.g. transdermals or pellets).

    Dopamine is one neurotransmitter that clearly can result in tolerance when present at high levels. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that needs to vary in concentration hour by hour. On of its functions is to provide a feeling of reward on certain events. A reward cannot last forever, it has to have a finite life or one cannot differentiated it as a reward. TRT generally does not have the frequent fluctuations in dopamine level during the course of the day that natural testotserone production lends.

    Dopamine sensitivity improves once a deficit is created.

    Going off TRT periodically, which is done by ASIH, for example, would then allow dopamine sensitivity to return.

    In a way, if dopamine insensitivity is an issue, then one other possible solution would be to have once a month injections such as a colleague of mine uses for her TRT clients. This causes a large peak and then a return to baseline hypogonadism before the next injection. Dopamine levels follow the testosterone curves - in this case having large changes in levels through the month.

    The thought of giving a person their whole 4 week supply of testosterone in one injection gives me pause - for example out of concern for a roller coaster experience. The large dose of injection also is a concern. Problems with supraphysiologic levels of testosterone and other hormones at the onsent of treatment is a concern. From her experience, her technique works well for her clients. Perhaps this is one technique that maintains dopamine sensitivity since dopamine levels are constantly changing rather than remaining at the same high levels.

    A third approach would be doing TRT in such a way as to avoid very high total testosterone levels - for example, going up to 400-500 ng/dl rather than 650-1000 ng/dl. This way, dopamine levels do not remain constantly high. There then is more headroom for the brain to produce more dopamine in the reward circuits of the brain on demend, without getting to high levels that promote tolerance. If sexual function is not optimal, then optimizing other hormonal systems such as thyroid and adrenal hormones may return sexual function at the lower target testosterone levels. As an example, with good thyroid and adrenal function, sex drive often persists to fairly low levels of testosterone.
  5. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Member

    Sounds good but lower levels in men like me cause joint and muscle pain at one time I was house bound could hardly walk and the pain in my back was dam bad. I was on gels and my levels were 600. Doing shots and my levels at 900 I don't have this pain.
    I need to say that my labs range is 262 to 1593 so this needs to taken as to a range of 250 to 1000.
  6. marianco

    marianco Doctor of Medicine

    The story is more complex.

    When a high testosterone level is needed (such as levels over 1000 ng/dl), the question I would have is what other hormone problems are occurring that a high level is needed to compensate for the problem?

    For example, testosterone can stimulate thyroid function, thus increasing one's energy. (There are some people however, where too high a testosterone level can reduce thyroid function instead of increasing it. ) If one is then low on thyroid to begin with, then a high dose of testosterone is needed to compensate for the lack of thyroid hormone. But if thyroid hormone levels were corrected, does the person need such a high dose of testosterone - which has its own risks? A good chance not. A physiologic dose (within 300-1000 ng/dl) may serve well - with lower risks overall.

    Testosterone, thyroid hormone, and cortisol are major anti-inflammatory hormones. Progesterone and DHEA are among the others. They help reduce pain conditions. If a person has hypogonadism, hypothyroidism, and adrenal fatigue the person is at high risk for inflammatory and pain conditions. A high dose of testosterone may be needed to compensate for the deficiencies in other hormones. However, if the thyroid and adrenal deficiencies are addressed, would this be needed? A good chance not. A physiologic dose (within 300-1000 ng/dl) may serve well - with lower risks overall.

    Testosterone can't be considered alone in a vacuum. Its effects need to be considered in terms of teamwork with other hormones, neurotransmitters, and immune system cytokines.
  7. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Member

    Yes your right but I have seen my levels go up on the same dose as I treat my Adrenals and Thyroid. So as I have lowed my dose my pain is coming back. Yet I have just started on treating Adrenals and Thyroid so I do need to give it time. I am finding I don't need as high a does of T meds now. I guess it's like you said in a post some men use the T meds up faster then others. I am now finding I am not using them up so fast and having to cut my dose because levels are now going to high.
  8. marianco

    marianco Doctor of Medicine

    An interesting note is that before physicians had lab tests to overly rely on to diagnose and treat hypothyroidism, they had to treat hypothyroidism by signs and symptoms (which I think is the correct way to treat it). The average dose of Armour Thyroid used then was about 180 mg a day. The dose, of course, has to be individualized to the person. But some may need a dose as high as 300 mg a day to reduce the signs and symptoms of hypothyroidism. I would not recommend going to doses this high without being under the care of physician, given the risks involved.
  9. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Member

    I do have my Dr. treating me he has me on 30mgs I retest this Wed. but I have been on 75mgs before he started treatment I had to go on the med on my own. When I told him I did this and my Fatigue, sleep and breathing were much better he starts me at 15mgs and in 2 weeks upped to to 30mgs. I tried doing his low dose but after being on the higher dose on my own for 6 weeks I felt like crap doing his lower dose. I am just trying to let him catch up with me. I feel I could go up to 90 mgs but am not uping the dose on my own and feel I will be caught up after this test.
  10. Marianco, I know you don't recommend supraphysiological levels of testosterone, but for those individuals who choose to do 'steroid cycles' using supraphysiological doses of testosterone e.g. serious bodybuilders, do you think they should also take something to support their thyroid & adrenal function while on their cycles, such as armour thyroid & isocort?
  11. thebigEZ

    thebigEZ Junior Member

    Also, why is it that people that use 'steroid cycles' never lose their sensitivity to testosterone and/or dopamine. I view the steroid forums and it seems like everyone always has a hugh sex drive while 'on'. The more testosterone I use the worse my sex drive and sense of well-being is. Its frustrating for me because I am still in my 20's with no sex drive ever.
  12. thebigEZ

    thebigEZ Junior Member

    Hey I was just thinking, in theory, could someone do say 15mg of testosterone/per day so that the body would follow more of a natural body's daily production of testosterone. You could do 15mg at night so by mourning your levels would be high and then gradually decline throughout the day. This in turn could help those who become sensitive to dopamine, which I speculate many of us do.

    Possible Problems include: 1.frequency of injections could lead to scar tissue
    2. hard to get exact dose when getting a very small amount of oil

    I know gels would do the same thing, but gels do not work well for many people.

    Any Thoughts?
  13. Matt Muscle

    Matt Muscle Junior Member

    I think this is just a matter of time. Many bodybuilders start to experience a drop in libido and effects from the testosterone as they approach the end of thier cycles. Many say short cycles of testosterone work best, 6 weeks. So the insensitivity towards the dopamine may take not days or weeks to develop but a period of months.
  14. Do you think a person dead set on doing a 'steroid cycle' should generally take armour thryroid and isocort/hydorcortisone too?