Finasteride [5ARI] Induced/Associated Effects

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by madclown, Dec 18, 2006.

  1. #1
    madclown

    madclown Junior Member

    Hi guys, I've been lurking for awhile but the time has come for me to post... I really need your help, PLEASE. I don't know what to do anymore and my health and quality of life has been ruined thanks to finasteride.

    LAB ATTACHMENTS ARE INCLUDED IN THIS POST.

    I am 27 years old, 5'10, 150lbs. I took Finasteride (Proscar) quartered 1.25mg/day for 11 months when I was 25-26 for hairloss. It has now been 14 months since I quit (cold turkey) and I have still not recovered from the side effects I experienced. This was after I was told by my doctor and MERCK's literature that any side effects would resolve upon discontinuation of the drug.

    Prior to Finasteride I was a perfectly healthy 25 yr old guy, I loved to have sex, could get hard at the drop of a hat, was always horny and mentally sharp. Now a year and a half later I'm a shell of my former self, and am STILL experiencing side effects that manifested while on the drug, including:


    Sexual:
    ---------
    - Low libido, no primal desire for sex, never horny
    - No spontaneous, morning or nocturnal erections
    - Numb feeling/lack of sensitivity in penis/balls, rubbery penis
    - Penis/nuts extremely wrinkled when flaccid, constantly retreating
    - Penile/scrotum shrinkage
    - Porn/girls don't turn me on anymore (nothing happens down there)
    - Some penis curvature and rotation on axis to left
    - Semen volume/shooting distance decrease
    - Semen consistency change from thick creamy white before fin, to clear and watery while on fin.... after fin, semen is somewhat thick and sheet yellow/white in color.
    - Loss of erections soon after penetration, unable to sustain


    Mental:
    --------
    - Brain fog, difficulty remembering things, forgetfulness
    - Stumbling over words, tongue tied, slurring of speech
    - Emotional blunting / no feelings
    - Lack of energy, interest in hobbies, no passion to do anything anymore


    Physical:
    --------
    Pseudo-gyno


    When I quit on October 1, 2005, my dick was shrivelled, totally numb and tingly, and completely lifeless... I couldn't feel anything down there anymore. I couldnt get turned on, my jizz was like water and I felt like I was constantly out of it mentally, and always tired. Also by this point I was experiencing full-blown panic attacks, anxiety, weight gain and the beginnings of puffy nips/gyno (I had major chest pains in month 6 -- should have recognized the signs).

    2 weeks after I quit I felt a massive flood of DHT come back into my system. I felt horny and alive again!!! I could get turned on no problem, erections were 100%, jizz volume great, penis/balls were full size.

    3 months later by January 2006, the flood of DHT had disappeared and I felt like complete crap... my system had crashed. At this point I got my first labs drawn.


    LABS (Canadian values):
    -----------------------

    1. January 2006 (3 months off):
    - low T (12.8 nmo/L, range 8.4-28.7 = 388 in US)
    - high TSH (4.54, range 0.30-5.50).

    Family doctor refused to believe Finasteride could be causing these problems, said everything was in my head. I knew it wasn't and by this point I had found the Yahoo Finasteride Side Effects forum. I came to realize there were hundreds of other men who had their HPTA screwed by finasteride, and have yet to recover.

    2. May 2006 (8 months off) - 2nd blood test:
    - T went up to 17.3 (519)
    - TSH went down to 2.33
    - Estradiol 154 (43 US terms)
    - LH 2.0 (2.0-18) ... BORDERLINE
    - FSH 2.1 (2.0-18) ... BORDERLINE
    - Also had a semen test - came back fertile.

    I realized at this point I was experiencing symptoms of secondary hypogonadism. Again my doctor shrugged things off and told me to come back in 6 months.


    TODAY:
    --------

    December 2006 (14 months off):

    - Have since seen a world-reknowned Urologist who basically told me this was all in my head and claimed all my values were "normal", yet found it "interesting" that I had no morning, noctunals or spontaneous wood.
    - Prescribed me viagra (at 27!!!) and sent me on my way.

    Even though its been 14 months since I quit, I am still experiencing all of the above side effects, and nothing has really improved. My main issue is still the lack of sex drive, penis/nuts shrinkage, reduced ejaculate and difficulty getting erections (due to lack of libido).

    I am seeing another local Endo in March but may get new labs before then (they cost me $) to check Estradiol, Total T, TSH, LH, FSH, prolactin, Progesterone, SHBG, DHT, AST, ALT, DHEA-s, Cortisol, Albumin, and Free testosterone.

    --------------

    TREATMENT HELP:

    Well, here's where I need your guys' help and expert opinions...

    Basically... HOW CAN I GET BACK TO NORMAL? I understand hcg and clomid can be used to jumpstart the HPTA... but for how long after you've been shutdown? Does anyone even know how or why Fin screws up the HTPA in the first place (besides blocking DHT/T upregulation/extra aromatization to E?)

    Based on my last labs, my best guess is to get my Estradiol under control (apparently its high?) to correct the T/E ratio, and see where Prolactin and SHBG are with my next labs. I understand the former can shutdown T production/the latter binds Free T, which is crucial for libido. Hopefully by correcting those hormones LH will be stimulated and T/FSH will rise again?

    However, eventually I think I will make an appointment to see Dr John or Shippens in the US. I understand they have experience treating men shutdown my Fin... but if anyone knows a doctor or endo in Canada that has treated Finasteride patientsthen please let me know... I really don't want to have to resort to going on TRT for life (if I could even find a doc willing to work with me on it).


    Thanks in advance for any and all insight, I feel like a shell of my former self but I know there must be a way to beat this.

    You guys are the best.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2011
  2. #2
    Legenden1999

    Legenden1999 Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high E

    I just want to tell you that you are not alone. I have basicly the same symptoms, but for me the mental part (brain fog/lack of emotions) is the worst. I have been off finasteride for 3 years I think, and my symptoms presist.

    Im sorry to inform you this, but for us finasteride-sufferes, there seems to be much more going on in our bodies than just a screwed up HPTA.:(

    I have tried clomid treatment for 2 months, which raised my T very well, but after a few months off it, my T fell down again. I did not notice much improvement while on it. To make matters worse I go permanent floaters in my left eye from clomid :-(

    Some time later I tried TRT for 3 months. It helped on my energy level and raised my libido. Sex was also improved somewhat, but my mental sides were unaffected. I stopped after 3 months cuz I rather wanted to find the root cause, that patch up with TRT and risk becomming dependent on it. I ran a pct with nolvadex (pretty much the same as clomid) and this time I did not get any eye problems.

    A few months ago I found out I have severe adrenal fatigue (took a saliva test), Both my dhea and cortisol is low and Im in stage 7, so action was required. I got my doc to prescribe Hydrocortisone 30mg/day and have currently been on it for 2 months. I dont feel much improvement, but my thyroid labs are also pretty bad, so I think I need armour also.

    I have reached the point, that Im willing to replace whatever hormone in my body just to feel better, and Im currently working on it in this order:

    adrenal hormones. cortisol/dhea
    thyroid hormones. t3/T4
    sex hromones. testosterone/E2

    I advise you to get the saliva test to see what is going on with your adrenal/hyroid hormones before you jump on TRT, and you can send me a PM to get my mailadress, cause I would to keep in touch since we share so many symptoms...

    JH
     
  3. #3
    bigjimcalhoun

    bigjimcalhoun Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high E

    Interesting post.

    I took Finasteride for hair loss and lost the hair anyway (back in 1997) and am now on TRT. The dude that is treating me thinks that this could be part of why I have the problem.
     
  4. #4
    kincaiddave

    kincaiddave Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high E

    With an Estradiol level at 43, you are going to feel better getting it down. It will raise your T level also. When your system sees the E2, it can't tell the difference between it and T. This keeps your LH and FSH down and therefore your T level down. Try some DIM or arimidex or Zinc at the least to get your E2 down.
     
  5. #5
    Propeciahell

    Propeciahell Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Madclown & Legenden1999,

    I'm in the exact same boat too (thanks to finasteride)!! Identical!!
    - low (out of range) T
    - penis & ball shrinkage
    - soft unsustainble erections
    - unusual breast pains for about a month
    - ball ache

    It's been a year now, I'm stuck like this...has anything worked for you guys.

    Please help,

    Propeciahell.
     
  6. #6
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Finasteride is a water over the dam.
    It is in the past, can't change past.

    To have a life now, I suggest thorough testing and adjusting what can be adjusted.
    Also stay away from clomid and nolvadex.
    Also when using aromatase inhibitor use only
    arimidex(pills)=liquidex(liquid)=Anastrozole(liquid)
    Saliva testing only for cortisol?DHEAs
    Otherwise use mostly serum and some urine tests.
    Stool and hair tests are helpfull.

    I publish list of tests that I do for my self, if someone need I can repost.
    .
    .
     
  7. #7
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    I stopped taking propecia 2 yrs ago and it has fucked up my HPTA. Initially, i was unable to have erections and no desire for sex. With the help of ZMK, sustain alpha, toco, and endoamp has restored my ability to have erections to 70-85%. I have not gotten those throbbing erections that I use to get like i did 3 yrs ago. My lab work just shows that I have low free testosterone and low normal total testosterone, so I have been searching around for the proper pct protocol to bring me back to 95-100%

    I've looked around and found that van-man's protocol looks promising, so i will be persuing that over the next 8 weeks.

    starting day 1:
    1. 20/20/20/20/20/20/10/5/2.5 gm of nolvadex at 10pm (7-8 week program)
    - helps to increase LH and FSH as well as increase the sensitivity of the Pituitary to
    GnRH
    - i bought clomid online but won't be taking it due to the side effects. i have been reading
    research that shows that clomid reduces the pituitary sensitivity
    to GnRH. So it means that it takes more GnRH to stimulate LH production, therefore it will be
    harder for u to jumpstart your HPTA.

    2. 250 IU hcg every other day at 10pm for 2-3 weeks
    - brings the balls from atrophy, but at this amount it will not desensitize the testes

    So far, I have been on this protocol for 3 days and I have noticed that I have 2 pimples on my face and my nuts are slightly bigger. It is firmer to the touch and I have been feeling my nuts several days prior to PCT b/c I wanted to be able to perceive if there were changes.

    Like many finasteride users who tried various PCT protocols, all seem to fail either because they use too much HCG, not tapering off nolvadex correctly, or using clomid for too long, but after much research i think this is a winning protocol.

    It is fucked up how finasteride can wreak havoc on our HTPA and now, we have to figure stuff out for ourselves. It is not an easy journey, but a necessary one that we have to take so we can get better. Wish me luck!
     
  8. #8
    s0b

    s0b Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    Look my life is ruined due to finasteride, and i only took it for 1 month or 5 weeks as far as i can remember.

    As soon as i quit (2 weeks later in precise) all HELL BROKE LOOSE. Balls started to ache, dick started to loose sensitivity, sperm started to decrease in quantity and fade in quality and so on. Finally i was left with 2/3 of my previous ball size and 4-5 cm decrease in penis size. I didnt have sex for 2 straight years. Not even a BJ. Not even felt anything about it.

    Then i started training very hard, quit smoking and anything that affected my health. Well, guess what, within 1 year i was very strong and managed to get back some of penile sensitivty , BUT NOT BALL SIZE. By 2 years time training heavily, squatting, playing bball i had restored 70% of my sexual function. If i quit training for 2-3 weeks things went bad again. If i quit taking whey protein and carbos things got bad also.

    Finally so much training started to hit me along with me wokring and studying all day long, since in order to recover from stressful situations you need normal testo levels, which i didnt have after fin and i was trying to reach!!! Dahh..

    So soon i started getting boots of fatigue which i coudlnt explain. I couldnt recover readily from training any more.I developed overtraining twice in 4 months, second time led me to heavy dysautonomia and adrenal fatigue. Adrenal fatigue was not handled properly here by greek docs and ended up screwing up completely my body. Now i have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome full blown. ALL MY HORMONES ARE VERY LOW. MY balls recently got screwed up for uknown reason more and are SO FUCKING SMALL AND SO SOFT. I cant even touch them.

    Anyways, i dont know what to do. I tried many drugs, unfortunately i am so unlucky i had to take CIPRO ony year ago and then i urgently took HYDROCORTIONE as well and this fucked me even more, side effects have not gone away, CIPRO caused me increased intracranial pressure and tendon problems eye problems (double vision, floaters), dizziness for months and for sure it fucked my axis even more. Just after cipro it was that my balls got even smaller than before noticeably this time for even doctors.I am in bed for more than 2 years now MOST days i dont have the energy to even ride my bike around my building, -walking is very hard to do and it messes up my head pressure and i have to stay in bed for days with headaches- somedays i feel i should just jump off the building

    ONE DRUG AND YOUR LIFE CAN BE SOOO OVER.

    Now if there is a chance to recover from all this somehow i guess i need to heal my prostate first from the finasteride damage and then head for restoring the HPT axis with hcg and novla. But can those two work while i have so low cortisol levels? Will they bring my cortisol levels up more or will i get some more sides ???

    Yet it seems that i have been in the same situation with no improvement for more than 6 months now. Its like i have hit the roof of restoration with natural ways.

    STAY AWAY FROM FINASTERIDE. ITS NO JOKE DRUG. I KNOW 20 PEOPLE AT LEAST THAT HAVE TAKEN IT, DOCTORS INCLUDED AND YEARS LATER THEIR LIFE STARTED TO FALL APART. THE BODY DOESNT SEEM TO ADAPT TO THE CHANGES THE DRUG CAUSES AND THEY ARE PERMANENT
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2008
  9. #9
    mqsymth

    mqsymth Junior Member

  10. #10
    s0b

    s0b Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    I am very confused lately due to my testosterone saliva levels. They seem to be very very low, while blood levels are in normal range (yet at the lowerr 1/3d of normal)

    Saliva levels are like 36 pg/ml with normal being 60-110 and estrogen levels are 11pg/ml with normal 1-3!!! Can this provide with some accuracy?? Because if there is accuracy in this situation then all those blood tests i have been doing are just a bunch of crap and are just misguiding me like it was done with adrenal fatigue and cortisol/dhea levels :(
     
  11. #11
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    hcg - has a similar structure to LH and that hormone tells your balls to produce testosterone. Taking too much of HCG will screw up your balls and it will cause your balls not to respond to LH correctly which is dangerous. If you read BigAK pct(listed in one of the links below), then you will see that it took him 2 yrs to recover. Also, he conveyed that information via private messages to me that he took too much HCG which caused him to relapse.

    for me, i need hcg to revive my balls b/c my balls are not responding to LH correctly (emperical data from my lab work). I took finasteride for about 6 month and that screwed up the communication between my brain (HPTA) and testes. Using this PCT, will hopefully restore the HPTA communication and produce the right amount of testosterone for my body. The nolvadex is used to restore the sensitivity of my pituitary to GnRH and produce enough LH to sustain my balls. Guess what, if you don't have enough LH in your system then your balls will shut down and you will have low testosterone. Right now, I have low free testosterone which I'm trying to increase with PCT.

    There are plenty of ways to increase free testosterone if you have normal total testosterone:
    1. take proviron to bind to SBHG and that should increase the free testosterone
    2. take arimidex to bind to aromatase which converts testosterone/dht into estrogen
    - since i took finasteride which block the enzyme conversion of testosterone -> estrogen
    which gave me very bad side effects and i don't want to tell someone to use a drug that
    disables enzymes.



    Read the following links to bring yourself up to speed about stuff: (read all pages)

    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/want-do-pct-right-134248858.html#post518781
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/my-pct-journal-kickstart-134243220-22.html#post517573
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/hcg-shut-down-whats-134248195.html#post514561
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/questions-about-nolvadex-134247960.html#post513109
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/restart-q-134247629.html#post511423
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/the-end-had-come-134247728.html
    Steroids with Michael Scally, M.D. #1 - Clomid, Nolvadex, hCG, PCT and HPTA Normalization
    Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) by Anthony Roberts
     
  12. #12
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    my pct

    hey s0b,

    don't give up man b/c many people are in your situation. You are not the only one, buddy and we're in this together. From your description about sperm quantity, you probably have low FSH that stimulates your balls to produce sperm, so nolvadex should help.

    I sent you a private message before i read your posting, since i'm up to date now, i think you should try this pct program.

    nolvadex and hcg
    Elite Fitness Pharmaceuticals - Providing the Ultimate in Anabolics and other Performance Enhancing drugs


    10 ML Presealed Vial (Clear)
    Alcohol Prep Pads. 200 per box.
    Bacteriostatic Water
    Insulin Syringe with Needle
    GPZ Services


    obviously consult your doctor first and don't go taking any random thing that people suggest. People don't give a rat's ass about your safety and this is why you need to advocate for yourself. My doctor does not know how to help me which is why i have been reading up and learning as much as i can about the endocrine system. There are so many pct protocols and you have to find the right one for you. For some, taking clomid, nolvadex, and hcg, seems to work, since there are people on this forum where clomid gave bad side effects, that is why i would recommend against it.

    Mike Scally (Steroids with Michael Scally, M.D. #1 - Clomid, Nolvadex, hCG, PCT and HPTA Normalization)recommends that ppl take 1000IU hcg every other day but I seen a lot of people take 250-500 IU every other day and it works fine. I read that clomid is counter productive because it suppress pituitary sensitive to GnRH and it causes joints along with eye problems (eeso on this forum told me), so don't take this unless everything else fails. Read Scally's article about correcting HPTA, but don't follow the clomid suggestion.

    Many ppl are anxious to correct their problems and will jump head first into something or feel that if they take a lot of a particular drug it will cure them... and that is totally bogus. Just be patient and see how other people respond to treatment then follow what they did.

    So far, I'm like the only one I've seen that had propecia side effects and deciding to use van-man's PCT protocol with Nolvadex tapering off to correct finasteride related issues. I will post my findings regularly so u know if this is the right treatment for u.

    When i get a chance, i'll post my lab work
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2008
  13. #13
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

  14. #14
    s0b

    s0b Junior Member

    Re: Help me please -- finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

    I hope you succeed keep me posted. At this point i have two problems and some questions..

    One is the chronic fatigue/ low testo low cortisol levels and small balls

    Second is the side effects from CIpro and Hydrocortisone afterwards (a crap combination of drug even if one follows the other with weeks in between). Those sides involve, intracranial pressure changes, blur and double vision, floaters, joint problems and so on. If i take hcg and nolva i must be very careful because chagnes in blood viscosity can really devastate my head even more. So i have to search this one alot.

    Now regarding the qeustions.
    Right after propecia use i got this prostatitis problem, and i wonder if it is useful taking HcG/novla before trying to correct it?? Maybe treating that finasteride induced prostatitis somehow
    can help revive some penile function. Do you also have any form of prostatitis?

    Do you also have decreased in size penis and testicles and if so, what sort of decrease are we talking about???

    What about blood tests, i havent seen any tests of yours around, maybe i didnt notice them
     
  15. #15
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    day 4

    Friday, December 26,2008

    I took a 2500 IU ampule and mixed it with 4ml of bateriostatic water. I used a fresh syringe to mix draw the water and put it into the sterile vial until I added another 3 ml. I added 1ml of bateriostatic water to the 2500 IU ampule and then draw 1 ml of the mixture into the sterile vial leaving me with 4 ml.


    So based on my calculation:


    (how much I want to take/size of ampule) x bateriostatic water ml = number of cc to inject


    ( 250 IU / 2500 IU ) x 4 ml = 0.40 cc


    Guess what, i fucked up and was so impatient that I injected myself with 1cc which is equivalent to 625 IU of hcg. I injected myself at 10pm and got a big rush and could not sleep well. The feeling was analogous to drinking coffee before bed, so all i could do was toss and turn to go to sleep. I didn't take nolvadex b/c i wanted to see the difference between hcg alone and nolvadex w/ hcg.

    Saturday, December 27,2008

    Well I woke up with the same erections and really didn't see much a difference. I think I felt one episode of spontaneous erection at work during the day. I don't remember if I had spontaneous erections at work like that before but just wanted it to be noted.

    I took my first nolvadex pill at 10pm and went to bed b/c I was tired. I felt like my head was in a vise and squeezing in on my sinuses. It didn't hurt but it was a momentary experience and wanted to let you know. My body did feel a little strange and wondered if I bought legit stuff. I think I did or at least I hope so.


    Sunday, December 28, 2008

    My nocturnal erections were more noticable without me touching my pecker to know that it was there. It just felt stronger this time around. Got out of bed to go to work and at work I a slight spontenous erection. I noticed that I have two pimple on my left cheek and I don't normally get any pimples which is kinda strange. I believe it is related to the pct protocol that I'm doing right now. I'll keep you posted if I get any improvements or side effects. I pray that I don't get any negative sides from this.

    Tonight I took HCG out of the fridge and pump 0.40 cc into my left upper thigh. This time I didn't feel the energy rush like I did the other day. I only took about 250 IU which is a little bit lower but enough not to desensitize my balls. I also took 20 mg of nolvadex at night on a semi full stomach.

    I had thoughts about taking HGH today b/c I think it would help cure some of the libido issues I been having. I don't feel as young as I use to and think it will help me get that feeling back.


    Monday, December 29, 2008

    I've gotten a slight headache yesterday afternoon and again today at 6-8pm. It is the type of headache that is barely noticeable and important to mention just to see if there is any correlation to taking nolvadex.

    My nocturnal erections a weaker than that have normally been but it is good. I use to have a hard time sleeping but taking nolvadex has assisted with my sleep quality. By no means, am i knocked the fuck out but i dream regularly, sleep without issues with the occasional toss and turn. My balls are growing from 2 days of hcg shots they are bigger in circumference and i'm unsure about length wise. both my left and right nuts are bigger. My unscientific measuring device is my middle finger and thumb which i hold one testicle between the fingers and roll the nut across my finger.

    Took 20mg of Nolvadex at 10pm and today is an off day for HCG.


    Tuesday, December 30, 2008

    Yesterday, I went to bed at 12:30am which normally I sleep at 10:30pm due to exhaustion. I think the boys are kicking in people and producing testosterone b/c I had energy yesterday and didn't feel sleepy. When i woke up today I was pitching a tent and was definitely 80% erect. Generally, i wake up and 30 secs later my dick goes flaccid, but today I was just chillin with my erected pecker for 30 mins and did not go down. I was feeling my balls too and they seems much bigger from the day before. I went to pee and using the same measuing procedure i noticed that me balls were definitely bigger.


    I have been on this protocol for 4 days now and feel that my energy has definitely increase. I sing to myself... I don't get emotional about things like i did before this protocol. My spirits are up and don't know if there's more testosterone in my blood or estrogen is being blocked from the receptor, or a combination of both. all i know that something is working. I didn't get any headaches today, but my left hip has started to ache and it could be nolvadex affecting my joints. I will continue to post any afflictions i get while on this protocol.

    Today, i scheduled an appointment w/ the doc to get my lab results prior to pct. I've gone off the reservation and have bypassed his advice. He has admitted that he does not know how to cure my situation which is why I'm self administering my own treatment. (This is a long freakin entry and how the computer doesn't or i'm screwed b/c i'm not typing the bullshit again) there has not been a doctor that i went to ever hearing about these side effects, let alone, how to treat this shit. I'm done about ranting about my doctors. Meso is the only doctor i need :D

    oh, i forgot to mention that there is defintely water retention in my face and my eyes lids are puffy which started when i took nolvadex.

    Pretty soon, I'll be taking 250 iu of hcg and 20 milligram of nolvadex at 10pm.
     
  16. #16
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    cortisol

    Hey s0b,

    I found this article that says estrogen impairs cortisol production and who knows maybe nolvadex will restore your cortisol levels. You'll need to ask pmgamer18 for his input b/c he posted that snipet below.

    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/cortisol-abnormality-cause-elevated-134248167.html

     
  17. #17
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    Re: day 4

    oneday;
    on AM board there is a guy , for last couple of years his TRT consist of HCG+arimidex only.

    He changes from time to time, but it is about

    (1000-1250iu)EOD

    His name is colkurtz_spf

    There is also a guy jinxie, he was on similar system for a while but lately changed to T+hcg+arimidex

    The idea is to use as much as possible of HCG.
    Other than raise of testosterone you will see raise in e2.
    So the dose of HCG is limited by how much of E2 you can control with 1.5mg/week of arimidex.

    Actually this is better way to look at TRT.
    Then, if there is not enough BAT-BioAvailableTestosterone, just add the missing amount with T-shots or transdermal-T.

    T-shot when DHT is ok
    Transdermal-T if you low on DHT
    .
    .
    .
     
  18. #18
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Hi JanSz,

    thanks for your response and recommendation. I thought about taking arimidex to boost my free testosterone but found postings on meso by van-man and vehemently recommended against AI's.

    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/want-do-pct-right-134248858.html#post518781


    Think about it, ppl took finasteride (5ar Inhibitor) to block conversion of testosterone to dht, and now, ppl want to take Arimidex (aromatase inhibitor) to block conversion of androgen into estrodiol... i'm sorry, but I messed up once before with FIN and I honestly believe that FIN stalled my HPTA and using FIN's cousin Arimidex will just do the same.

    Since my balls have decreased in size over the last 2 years, I really think that reviving the Leydig cells along with increased LH,FSH from the Pituitary via nolva usage, that it will bring me back to my former self. Things will never be the same again, but I just want to restore at 90-95 % what I had.

    You mentioned using a higher dosage of hcg and I may do that, but it will be dependent on my labs and testicular volume. First, I'll take some vitamin E as prescribed by Anthony Roberts in his article Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) by Anthony Roberts where he states that it increases the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG.

    I will stay the course and the treatment that has been outlined above. I may increase HCG to 300 - 500 iu tho, but I have to see how things develop during the week. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  19. #19
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    day 5

    Wednesday, December 31, 2008

    Today is day 5 of my pct protocol and yesterday I took 250 iu hcg in my right butt cheek and nolva @ 12:30am (i was suppose to take the pct @10pm but I was typing all night and lost track of time). I didnt sleep well yesterday b/c circadian rhythm is much attuned lately ever since I took hCG and nolvadex. Every weekend I wake up at 5:30am to go to work and on my off days I still wake up at 5:30am but go back to sleep with brief episodes of awakenings. Prior to PCT, I would never have a compeling desire to wake up at 5:30 and just would sleep through it. It is tolerable and Im not going to stress about it.

    When I woke up this morning, there was a mild morning erection and balls seem maybe 1-2% smaller, but it is a 48% improvement since Ive started this PCT. At first, I thought that the hcg I used were deteriorating and may have to mix another vial. I noticed that my balls get bigger on the off days when Im not taking hcg, so Ill wait till tomorrow for results. Here are links about how long HCG will last:

    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-forum/hcg-vial-in-fridge-134252999.html
    http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/hcg-out-of-refrigerator-134238471.html

    Sure, I had thoughts about jacking up the dosage of hcG b/c I didnt see any results, but I had to calm myself down. Cmon it is only 5 days since I began this protocol, so I want to think with logic and not with my balls. Haha. Also I thought that maybe shooting hcg into my butt cheek could have been a reason why it was ineffective but like I said, Im going to calm down and wait.

    It has been 2 yrs since coming off of propecia and I dont really remember the size of my balls prefinasteride, so theres nothing to compare it to. It may be possible that they are back to their normal size and will need to rely on lab test to determine if theres an increase in testosterone.

    In a prior posting, I mentioned that I had headaches and hip pain, and have not had those symptoms today. I dont feel any emotion side effects from this PCT protocol, unless you consider happiness a side effect.

    Semen quality has improved lately and it is not as watery as it used to be. Orgasms seems muted and not as pleasurable, maybe it is a direct side effect of nolva. As for erection strength, Im going to say that erections are stronger under this protocol then without it.

    Today I will be taking just nolvadex @10pm.
     
  20. #20
    oneday

    oneday Junior Member

    Day 6

    Thurday, January 1, 2009

    Keeping a journal like this is a pain, but it is part of the healing process. It serves as documentation and a audit trail for me and others to review.

    So, this is day 6 and I noticed that my nocturnal erections are weaker than usual (prior to pct) but they are more frequent and consistent throughout the night. Every time I wake up from my sleep i notice that I'm erected. This seems natural b/c we're suppose to get erections during REM sleep, so far, my dreams are not sexually explicit (i wish it was tho b/c i haven't had a wet dream in 3 yrs) and they are just the typical dreams about work, or about day to day stuff, but i have been dreaming about a female co worker (she's married) lately.

    First thing this morning, i woke up i felt my ball size and it was firm. i think the lower half of my testes are filling in. I'm going to bump up the dosage of hcg to 300 iu hcg and pump it into my thigh sub q bc i think i get better results that way. I'm going to go out and buy some 1000 iu Vitamin E to enhance the affects of hcg on the testicles (Read about this combo by forum users and Anthony Roberts).

    After checking out the balls, i decided to test myself with a little youporn.com to see if there has been any improvement between visual stimulation and arousal. Prior to pct, there were days where visual stimulation was not enough and i had to assist it with physcial stimulation to get excited. Well, just watching some milf got it going and mr jones went from flaccid to who is yo DADDY. It was completely erect 90% and lasted for 10-15 minutes. Over the past few days, the structure of my dick looked healthy. It doesn't look wrinklely, prune like, or scared like it has during the past few years and my gential skin was smooth, as well as relaxed.

    Just as a follow up, I don't have anymore headaches and maybe the headaches were a temporary side effect of my body getting use to nolvadex. Also, I haven't gotten any left hip pain since that day i complained about it. I hope that it doesn't come back.

    Tonight i will be taking vitamin e, hcg, and nolvadex at 10:30pm.

    Happy Years People. I hope that everyone has a joyful new beginning, along with continued success throughout the year. oneday
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2009

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