Which cycle option do you think is best?

  • Option 1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Option 2

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

zlwhine

Member
Hey guys! I want to apologize in advance for the lengthy write-up - I just want to be as thorough as possible and make sure I cover everything!

I recently created my account, but I have been a "shadow lurker" for the last few years on here lol. I've been extensively doing research on cycling for the last few years and finally feel comfortable taking the jump to hop on AAS. I have been training hard for the last eight years (weight training and cardio 7 days a week) and want to take the next step. Currently, I am 25 at a true 9% body fat reading at 6'2" and weigh 205-208 pounds (fluctuates within this range). I am making this post to hopefully gain insight on the plans of my first cycle and hopefully utilize the knowledge of the more experienced members over here!

To get straight to the point, my goals for this cycle are to gain a good amount of lean mass. I have been strictly dieting for the last 2 months in attempt to get as lean as possible before starting this cycle. I lost nearly 25 lbs at the end of these two months and I am very pleased with the outcome. Prior to cutting, I was in a motorcycle accident that put me out of the gym for about 5 months; thankfully, muscle memory kicked in and my strength and size was finally back after a serious 8 month bulk. The only downside was that I put on a significant amount of fat in the process.

That is all old news, however, and the accident, bulking, and cutting phases have passed. Thus, my goals for my first cycle are as follows: I would like to gain a significant amount of muscle while staying at or near the same body fat percentage I am at now (*as stated before, I am at a true 9% and would not like to move above 11-12% body fat by the end of my cycle, if possible!).

(1) Is this goal an obtainable outcome with strict dieting? Would it be reasonable to aim for gaining 15 lbs of lean mass?

Without getting too detailed on my diet, I plan on eating approximately 3500 calories per day (340g protein, 360g carb, and 80g fat ~ roughly 40/40/20) in the beginning of my cycle. Main carb sources will include oats, brown rice, quinoa, whole grain pasta, and a mixture of dextrose, waxymaize, and maltodextrin in my post-workout shake. Protein will come mainly from lean beef, chicken breast, tuna, egg whites, whey, and casein. Fats will mainly come from nuts, avocados, fish, and olive oil.

(2) Are my calories too low / too high for my goal? Is there any way I can tweak my macronutrient ratio in a more desirable fashion to accommodate my goals?

And now, for my cycle plans. I have already ordered and received everything and just want to tweak dosages and length of administering each compound in the best way possible in light of my goal. I will be using testosterone Enanthate as the base to my cycle. I also have Turinabol (enough to run 70 mg per day for 6 weeks) and Winstrol (enough to run 50 mg per day for 5 weeks) on hand. I will be taking liv 52 and NAC throughout the entire cycle. I have aromasin on hand for use during cycle. For PCT, I have nolvadex and clomid.

With that said, I have been considering a few different courses of action in regards to how I want to space out the introduction of each compound throughout the length of the cycle.

Option 1: Tbol jumpstart and winny finisher (leaning toward this one)

Week 1-12: Test E 500 mg EW
Week 1-6: Tbol 60-70 mg ED
Week 11-14: Winny 50 mg ED
PCT

Option 2: winny jumpstart and tbol finisher. Although this is very uncommon and unconventional, hear me out --> because I just finished cutting, I could use winny to aid my diet even more in preparation to have more room to grow throughout the cycle when the test actually kicks in. If I did this option, I would put myself in a deficit for the first few weeks of my cycle instead of the diet I referenced earlier, and would introduce the other diet when I cease use of winstrol. Winstrol would provide a notable strength increase as well in the beginning of the cycle which could aid in more efficient muscular stimulation and breakdown right off the bat when the test E kicks in around week 4-5. I would then set myself in a slight caloric surplus (3500 cals) and cruise on test alone and introduce tbol toward the end of the cycle. I have read that tbol in conjunction with test actually produces a synergistic effect for muscular growth, which would allow me to continue growing up until the end of the cycle. Granted, with this option I will not be "winstrol shredded" at the end, but, my goal of putting on mass while staying under 11-12% body fat seems obtainable. This would look something like this:

Week 1-12: Test E 500 mg EW
Week 1-5: Winny 50mg ED
Week 9-14: Tbol 60-70 mg ED
PCT

What are your thoughts on this? Because Winny seems to shine more as a finisher, this cycle is very intriguing to me. Let me know what you think!

Option 3: Tbol jump start and bulk throughout (least likely at the moment)

Week 1-12: Test E 500 mg EW
Week 1-6: Tbol 70 mg ED
PCT

My concerns with option 3: I am concerned that if I stay slightly above maintenance calories for the entirety of the cycle I will be above 11-12% body fat by the end of the cycle.
In addition, because I will be slightly above maintenance calories for the entire cycle, how many more pounds of muscle could I realistically put on with the additional few extra weeks of being in a slight surplus (relative to the other two options stated above with winstrol utilized while eating at a deficit while winstrol is administered)? I would imagine it would not be very significant and thus view the other two options as better scenarios.

Once again, I apologize for the lengthy write-up! I simply wanted to cover everything in one post. I will greatly appreciate any feedback and look forward to hearing your opinions! Thanks!
 

Leancuisine

Member
Like that you started off with your nutrition instead of your drugs. Kudos.
What's your TDEE? First cycle 15lb gain is definitely realistic.

I would kickstart with tbol and run the test. Take the winny if you want, but not at the beginning, will more than likely fuck your joints up and ruin the cycle for ya.

Also, I would start at 40mg a day w/ tbol, just to assess side effects/tolerance and go up from there. 70 is high and probably unnecessary. 50-60 seems to be the high end sweet spot. Anything above 60 has no added benefit for most
 

zlwhine

Member
Thanks a lot for the informative reply; I really appreciate it. Currently with minimal cardio, my TDEE is realistically probably around 3200. The exact figure might be +/- 200 depending on how I feel those days in the gym and how hard I'm able to hit the weights haha.
Also, I like the suggestion to run with tbol as a kickstarter instead of winny; just makes more sense, especially with winny drying out the joints - doesn't seem like an optimal way to start a bulk out now that you mention it.

Do you have any experience with winstrol? The reason I ask is that many people seem to be 50/50 on it and would rather not mess around with it. I'm still contemplating whether to run it at the end of my cycle but I have a few concerns:
1) while winny will help dry me out and slightly lean out toward the end of the cycle if my diet is in check, will it provide any notable keepable results, other than just making me look "harder" while on it? I know it will aid with strength a bit, but I don't know if that justifies the negatives.
2) would it be more beneficial to continue bulking for the last few weeks of the cycle instead of introducing winny in the mix? Realistically, how much more lean mass would I be able to put on within the last few weeks if I continued to bulk?
I am just concerned that toward the end of the cycle, I will be a higher body fat percentage than I would like, and don't know if it's possible to put on that much lean mass while staying lean.

^ on that note, if my TDEE is approximately 3200, will 3500 calories be sufficient for my goals? I was planning to progressively up my calories as the cycle continues - surely if I put on more mass my TDEE will go up accordingly. Also, in terms of the macronutrient ratio I have set up (40/40/20), do you believe there is a more optimal split for my goals that I should switch it to?

And as for the dosing of the dbol, starting with 40 sounds like a plan. If tolerable and mild, I can always taper it up slowly to 60 mg per day. Definitely don't want to jump into it too strongly.

My main concern is about my diet; I don't want to have my calories too low or too high as, in the long run, could have drastic effects.
 

emcomfu

Member
When I ran more than 40mg tbol I had zero appetite. And honestly I don't think you need 500mg of test for a first cycle. Too many guys are using outrageous amounts. I think 1cc a week will be fine for your first cycle and you will still see the results you're looking for. I'm currently running 200mg Tren E and 300mg test E and cutting up very nicely. I just read in a post earlier today that nobody should run less than 400mg Tren E it's a waste of time. Bullshit. Im full. Vascular. Gaining strength on a deficit. Cardio isn't affected like it is on higher dosages. Don't be afraid to start low. U can always bump it up.
 

zlwhine

Member
Yeah I see what you're saying, it just seems that everyone has been recommending 500mg of test per week and seem to think that's the sweet spot for a beginning cycle. I will surely look into dosing down the test and do some research tonight about that. After all, I could always add more if I feel it's too low!
Tren is a completely different animal though, my buddy is running 500mg tren (ace, however, not E) per week for his second cycle (that he is currently in the middle of) and the progress is unrealWeek; I can barely grasp my mind around being able to gain 15 lbs on my first cycle from test and tbol.
 

emcomfu

Member
I know "the Internet" says to run 500mg for a first cycle. I do not care what they say. U will see crazy gains on 1ml a week with a Kickstart.
 

emcomfu

Member
It's up to you man. Once u run 500mg u will only ever go higher. Guys running grams of gear and not even competing and it's just for the beach is stupid af. Good luck. Be smart. And careful.
 

zlwhine

Member
It's up to you man. Once u run 500mg u will only ever go higher. Guys running grams of gear and not even competing and it's just for the beach is stupid af. Good luck. Be smart. And careful.

I see your point exactly, and I am not one of the "only one cycle" mentality guys lol. No disrespect to them, yet, it just seems that the majority of the time once you get a taste, it's highly unrealistic you will give it up for good. Thank you for all the insight; I will definitely do more research prior to starting about starting with a lower test dose. I plan on starting within the next two weeks (towards the end of April).
 

zlwhine

Member
I know "the Internet" says to run 500mg for a first cycle. I do not care what they say. U will see crazy gains on 1ml a week with a Kickstart.

Aside from the lack of appetite at higher doses, how was your experience with tbol? Is it something you would even consider doing again, or is it no longer something of notable value compared to other compounds you run? I heard from many people that they wouldn't bother with tbol and would rather stack dbol, but the bloating turned me away from it.
 

emcomfu

Member
I would rather kick with anavar. Saw more mass gain with tbol tho. Like 9pounds in 4 weeks. More strength from var. Never used dbol. I probably won't use tbol again. I don't need a Kickstart. I'd rather end with an oral and start with a shorter Ester hormone. I'm on trt now. You need to be smart with your cycle durations if u want to be able to bring your levels back. Blast and cruise might be in your future before trt if u start fucking shit up. It's no fun coming off man. Have your ancillaries on hand. Nolva. An ai. Some hcg.
 

zlwhine

Member
I would rather kick with anavar. Saw more mass gain with tbol tho. Like 9pounds in 4 weeks. More strength from var. Never used dbol. I probably won't use tbol again. I don't need a Kickstart. I'd rather end with an oral and start with a shorter Ester hormone. I'm on trt now. You need to be smart with your cycle durations if u want to be able to bring your levels back. Blast and cruise might be in your future before trt if u start fucking shit up. It's no fun coming off man. Have your ancillaries on hand. Nolva. An ai. Some hcg.

Of course I definitely don't want to do this incorrectly. Do you think 12 weeks with this cycle seems ok and will allow me to bounce back? I would like to cycle on and off for the next few years (hopefully - if possible) and then cruise on TRT in a few years and occasionally do a cycle in addition to the TRT.

I am also very surprised with your experience with anavar; most seem to say how "weak" it is! I was strongly considering anavar, and shrugged the idea away because a lot of individuals recommended that it is too weak.
 

emcomfu

Member
And the guys who say it's weak are the guys who HAVE to run 750mg of Tren and 1g of test to see anything. Ridic
 

zlwhine

Member
And the guys who say it's weak are the guys who HAVE to run 750mg of Tren and 1g of test to see anything. Ridic

Lol now everything is much more clear from that vantage point. I will definitely give var a go in the future then!

Also, do you believe winny is worth running? I'm starting to question which way, the scale favors in terms of risk and reward regarding winny. I apologize from bombarding you with questions lol.
 

emcomfu

Member
U will see a ton of strength gain with winny too. And fast. So fast your joints won't keep up and they will hurt. Take it easy on ur first cycle. Maybe up your test dose if u want more gains. Save the winny for a cut.
 

zlwhine

Member
U will see a ton of strength gain with winny too. And fast. So fast your joints won't keep up and they will hurt. Take it easy on ur first cycle. Maybe up your test dose if u want more gains. Save the winny for a cut.

Sounds like a plan. I really appreciate the well-intended guidance, means a lot brother!
 
Top