MESO-Rx

Anabolic Steroids

First major cycle advice.

Z

Zenflow72

New Member
Hello all!

After searching and searching for somewhere to find legitimate information, it looks like Ive found the right place. Been reading this forum for about two weeks now, and really love the unfiltered nature of it. And, how ready people are to help first timers do this safely.

So, firstly - a little background on me before I get to my questions.

I am 31, 5'11 and weighing in at 185 12% body fat currently. I have been a life long adrenaline sports junky, but never got seriously into lifting. Until about two years ago, anyway. I have always had an immensely rapid metabolism, so I expected this was the reason I was unable to put on muscle. It certainly wasn't for lack of gym time, nor diet. I on average eat 4-5k calories a day, that being said I also probably do a little too much cardio. (Not a runner or biker, but I rock climb about 12-16 hours a week in addition to lifting 5/6 days a week.)

Well, after I started lifting and for about the first year, year and a half - I noticed substantial gains/body change. But, I seemingly hit a plateu about where I am now. Things didn't seem right. My energy levels were low, sleep wasn't as good as it should have been. So, on a whim I went to an endocrinologist. Found out my base T level was about 201, and free t around 13. So, we began a T/hcg/AI routine. Ill post the Hcg and ai dosages in a while, but I can currently say for sure I am am 75mg Tc per week.

All other levels were well within the normal ranges.

Been on this routine for about a year, and made minor gains. Current T levels sit around 350 and 16 free.

I have also tried a mild SARM cycle (not sure how y'all feel about these) and had mild/moderate results - but I am ready for some major progress. Ive never been a large guy, and thats the aim. Id like to get to 220~lb at 8-10% fat. Im willing to spend the time it takes to get there, and put in the dietary/gym requirements.

So, lets get down to the meat of my questions.

1) Cycle: Ive been reading a ton of different folks cycles, and think I found a good one to start with. "Newbiest" or something similar has a very recent post in the cycle thread, and sounds as if he and I are near identical in situations - and as such I liked the sound of his plan best. 400mg Tc and Id have to look at his NPP doseage. But, I figured that would be a good place to start.

So, questions - is an AI recommended during cycle? Is there anything you would recommend adding to this cycle as someone looking to make serious gains? Im not necessarily afraid of trying things out, but Id also like to follow the wisdom of experience.

Doseages: Forgive me if this question has been answered before, but I have looked... I found it difficult to find any instructions on drawing up the meds. It it 1ml=10mg? Does it depend on what med it is? Is this something I can ask the person I am buying from?

Post cycle: On the above mentioned cycle, 'newbiest' said that he was using his baseline T/ai/hcg as his pct. Is this recommended, or should I prepare for something else? Clen?

Im planning on running this cycle in about a month, so Ive got some time to take y'alls advice and thoroughly plan this out. Baseline blood will be done just before at my endo, and third party tested once midway through and once after. Again, recommendations on timing of this would be appreciated!

Thanks a ton in advance, I know that was a little lengthily.
 
Havent figured out how to edit....

Another question I just thought of. Ive had a few minor tendon/ligament strains over the years and lower back issue. I know NPP can be very helpful for joints, but - is there anything else you'd recommend?
 
Zenflow72 said:
Hello all!

After searching and searching for somewhere to find legitimate information, it looks like Ive found the right place. Been reading this forum for about two weeks now, and really love the unfiltered nature of it. And, how ready people are to help first timers do this safely.

So, firstly - a little background on me before I get to my questions.

I am 31, 5'11 and weighing in at 185 12% body fat currently. I have been a life long adrenaline sports junky, but never got seriously into lifting. Until about two years ago, anyway. I have always had an immensely rapid metabolism, so I expected this was the reason I was unable to put on muscle. It certainly wasn't for lack of gym time, nor diet. I on average eat 4-5k calories a day, that being said I also probably do a little too much cardio. (Not a runner or biker, but I rock climb about 12-16 hours a week in addition to lifting 5/6 days a week.)

Well, after I started lifting and for about the first year, year and a half - I noticed substantial gains/body change. But, I seemingly hit a plateu about where I am now. Things didn't seem right. My energy levels were low, sleep wasn't as good as it should have been. So, on a whim I went to an endocrinologist. Found out my base T level was about 201, and free t around 13. So, we began a T/hcg/AI routine. Ill post the Hcg and ai dosages in a while, but I can currently say for sure I am am 75mg Tc per week.

All other levels were well within the normal ranges.

Been on this routine for about a year, and made minor gains. Current T levels sit around 350 and 16 free.

I have also tried a mild SARM cycle (not sure how y'all feel about these) and had mild/moderate results - but I am ready for some major progress. Ive never been a large guy, and thats the aim. Id like to get to 220~lb at 8-10% fat. Im willing to spend the time it takes to get there, and put in the dietary/gym requirements.

So, lets get down to the meat of my questions.

1) Cycle: Ive been reading a ton of different folks cycles, and think I found a good one to start with. "Newbiest" or something similar has a very recent post in the cycle thread, and sounds as if he and I are near identical in situations - and as such I liked the sound of his plan best. 400mg Tc and Id have to look at his NPP doseage. But, I figured that would be a good place to start.

So, questions - is an AI recommended during cycle? Is there anything you would recommend adding to this cycle as someone looking to make serious gains? Im not necessarily afraid of trying things out, but Id also like to follow the wisdom of experience.

Doseages: Forgive me if this question has been answered before, but I have looked... I found it difficult to find any instructions on drawing up the meds. It it 1ml=10mg? Does it depend on what med it is? Is this something I can ask the person I am buying from?

Post cycle: On the above mentioned cycle, 'newbiest' said that he was using his baseline T/ai/hcg as his pct. Is this recommended, or should I prepare for something else? Clen?

Im planning on running this cycle in about a month, so Ive got some time to take y'alls advice and thoroughly plan this out. Baseline blood will be done just before at my endo, and third party tested once midway through and once after. Again, recommendations on timing of this would be appreciated!

Thanks a ton in advance, I know that was a little lengthily.
Click to expand...

What @Iron Frenchie said for sure!

Maybe drop the Test to 400
Add 50mg Proviron (If you're not worried about some minor hair loss)

Keep Nolva and AI on hand.. but don't use it until you need it

Proviron will help with your E.
at that dosage, I dint need AI.... BUT you might be different, we all are.

Feeling great at 6 weeks and want to get spicy?
Maybe add some Anavar.... but I think you'll be pretty happy with the test gains

EDIT
I dint understand your 10mg per 1ML question... all compounds are different MG/ML.. can you rephrase?

What does Clen have to do with this?

Nothing wrong with SARMs, just dont expect them to do a huge amount.. I personally am running around 250mg sarms a week right now.
 
You can make make real gains at 350-400 T. It also lets you learn your body. I know because experience. I have come within a point or two of crashing my E because I got over did AI. Running a single compound and going slow allows you to narrow down any problems. If you run to many substances at once it makes it impossible to track down potential problems. You WILL make gains at 350-400. If you don't then you know diet and or training need to be adjusted. If mid cycle you are getting real ligament pain and are dialed in on your AI (if needed at all) then you can add a second substance. This is of course after mid cycle bloods!!! This is coming from personal experience and the knowledge the guys here have given me. This run of mine I am planning on adding NPP starting at 60mg when my mid cycle blood work comes back clean.

Also when you got your T levels checked, was it before or after sarm cycle?
 
Are you going to continue rock climbing? I use to do a lot of rock climbing, bouldering and other endurance sports (ultramarathons and mountain biking). Not sure I’d want to weigh 220lbs and still climb 12-16 hours a week. That’s a lot of extra weight to carry around, it will be noticeable and impact your climbing IMO. When I run/race, I like to weigh sub 170lbs, when I lift I like to be 205+.

Pick your sport and build your body towards that goal. If it’s still rock climbing, I’d stick with your TRT plan and forget about this slippery slope!

Good luck man.
 
500mg test for 10-12 weeks. You don't need more than that -- trust me. Don't use NPP for your first cycle because you honestly don't need it and the side effects can be more challenging than test.

I do have one concern, though: if you plan on continuing with rock climbing, beefing up is going to be detrimental -- there's no getting around it. You're going to have to do a ton of grip work to compensate for the additional weight you'll be carrying and your balance will be thrown off for awhile.
 
I’m going to be the other guy.
Don’t run a cycle at all. I’d say go back to your endo and tell them you are still feeling the sides of low T. 350 imho is still too low. Try to get your trt dialed in and up before moving into a cycle. 75mg/wk is obviously the bare minimum for you. Try to get 125-150/wk and see what your bloods come back from there.
 
Silentlemon1011 said:
What @Iron Frenchie said for sure!

Maybe drop the Test to 400
Add 50mg Proviron (If you're not worried about some minor hair loss)

Keep Nolva and AI on hand.. but don't use it until you need it

Proviron will help with your E.
at that dosage, I dint need AI.... BUT you might be different, we all are.

Feeling great at 6 weeks and want to get spicy?
Maybe add some Anavar.... but I think you'll be pretty happy with the test gains

EDIT
I dint understand your 10mg per 1ML question... all compounds are different MG/ML.. can you rephrase?

What does Clen have to do with this?

Nothing wrong with SARMs, just dont expect them to do a huge amount.. I personally am running around 250mg sarms a week right now.
Click to expand...

I think you're entirely right. My main curiosity for NPP was joint support, but if I can get away without including it on my very first cycle - Ill probably be better off in the long run. I also like the sound of proviron and anavar later on. Ill probably follow this route, starting at 400mg T and increasing up to 500 potentially. 400 will probably do the trick, though.

You actually answered my doseage question! I was pretty tired when writting this post out, but that was my main concern. I didn't know if there was a standard mg/ml or if it was detailed on the product itself.

Again sleepy issue on the clen I meant clom.

I guess my primary questions now are, as far as AI... Do I continue to take my current dose throughout the cycle, or cease it? Believe its .5mg per week currently, quarter tabs on monday with T injection and quarter on thurs with Hcg.

During post, how will I know if I need to run nolva? Blood levels, or should I be paying attention to standard low T side effects?



Test_Subject said:
500mg test for 10-12 weeks. You don't need more than that -- trust me. Don't use NPP for your first cycle because you honestly don't need it and the side effects can be more challenging than test.

I do have one concern, though: if you plan on continuing with rock climbing, beefing up is going to be detrimental -- there's no getting around it. You're going to have to do a ton of grip work to compensate for the additional weight you'll be carrying and your balance will be thrown off for awhile.
Click to expand...

Think you're entirely right! Seems to be the general consenus to avoid NPP first cycle, and introduce for second/third maybe depending on how first goes.

As for climbing, as much as I love it... Its not in line with my goals. I definetly want to focus on weights for the time being, and maybe reincorporate climbing during a shred phase. But for now, bulk-bulk-bulk. Climbing is super tough on the joints/ligament/tendons... So youre 100% correct to have that concern!


Thank y'all very much for taking the time to advise! I sincerely appreciate it, and no good advice will be ignored. (Yeah, definetly not running tren on cycle 1... Maybe later on.)

Lastly, question about T sources. Is there any -major- difference between enanthate, cypionate and proprionate? Or the t-400? If so, which would be best for this given circumstance? Everything Ive seen, its mostly just a branding thing? But same mechanism of action.
 
KetoMuscles said:
I’m going to be the other guy.
Don’t run a cycle at all. I’d say go back to your endo and tell them you are still feeling the sides of low T. 350 imho is still too low. Try to get your trt dialed in and up before moving into a cycle. 75mg/wk is obviously the bare minimum for you. Try to get 125-150/wk and see what your bloods come back from there.
Click to expand...

Thats absolutely fair. I have a blood test with endo at the end of the month and we were actually going to look at doses. Maybe Ill wait til we even that out before starting a full cycle. Definetly something to take in to consideration!

Appreciate the advice, from the logical / long term approach I want to take.
 
Zenflow72 said:
I think you're entirely right. My main curiosity for NPP was joint support, but if I can get away without including it on my very first cycle - Ill probably be better off in the long run. I also like the sound of proviron and anavar later on. Ill probably follow this route, starting at 400mg T and increasing up to 500 potentially. 400 will probably do the trick, though.

You actually answered my doseage question! I was pretty tired when writting this post out, but that was my main concern. I didn't know if there was a standard mg/ml or if it was detailed on the product itself.

Again sleepy issue on the clen I meant clom.

I guess my primary questions now are, as far as AI... Do I continue to take my current dose throughout the cycle, or cease it? Believe its .5mg per week currently, quarter tabs on monday with T injection and quarter on thurs with Hcg.

During post, how will I know if I need to run nolva? Blood levels, or should I be paying attention to standard low T side effects?





Think you're entirely right! Seems to be the general consenus to avoid NPP first cycle, and introduce for second/third maybe depending on how first goes.

As for climbing, as much as I love it... Its not in line with my goals. I definetly want to focus on weights for the time being, and maybe reincorporate climbing during a shred phase. But for now, bulk-bulk-bulk. Climbing is super tough on the joints/ligament/tendons... So youre 100% correct to have that concern!


Thank y'all very much for taking the time to advise! I sincerely appreciate it, and no good advice will be ignored. (Yeah, definetly not running tren on cycle 1... Maybe later on.)

Lastly, question about T sources. Is there any -major- difference between enanthate, cypionate and proprionate? Or the t-400? If so, which would be best for this given circumstance? Everything Ive seen, its mostly just a branding thing? But same mechanism of action.
Click to expand...
You won't need Nolva post cycle if you go back to your trt dose. As far as the AI, I would keep it at what the doctor prescribed until you have high E symptoms. At 400 mg/week you may not need any additional AI.

Edit: I just saw the last post. Yes, definitely hold off the cycle until you see your doctor and see where you are with your bloodwork. If it were me I would get my testosterone at acceptable trt levels before before ever running a cycle.
 
Last edited:
Human_backhoe said:
You can make make real gains at 350-400 T. It also lets you learn your body. I know because experience. I have come within a point or two of crashing my E because I got over did AI. Running a single compound and going slow allows you to narrow down any problems. If you run to many substances at once it makes it impossible to track down potential problems. You WILL make gains at 350-400. If you don't then you know diet and or training need to be adjusted. If mid cycle you are getting real ligament pain and are dialed in on your AI (if needed at all) then you can add a second substance. This is of course after mid cycle bloods!!! This is coming from personal experience and the knowledge the guys here have given me. This run of mine I am planning on adding NPP starting at 60mg when my mid cycle blood work comes back clean.

Also when you got your T levels checked, was it before or after sarm cycle?
Click to expand...

Great advice. And the way you are introducing NPP is probably what I will follow as well once Ive gotten my feet wet and tests come back in the clear!

Sarm cycle was done about a year before my endo blood tests started. But it was a pretty mild run, ligandrol, ostarine and yk11 I think only for 8 weeks. Ran the companies PCT after, and felt pretty unchanged throughout the whole process. Still unsure if it was a legit SARM source, or just filler. Being much more careful/selective in my search for anabolics.
 
Zenflow72 said:
I think you're entirely right. My main curiosity for NPP was joint support, but if I can get away without including it on my very first cycle - Ill probably be better off in the long run. I also like the sound of proviron and anavar later on. Ill probably follow this route, starting at 400mg T and increasing up to 500 potentially. 400 will probably do the trick, though.

You actually answered my doseage question! I was pretty tired when writting this post out, but that was my main concern. I didn't know if there was a standard mg/ml or if it was detailed on the product itself.

Again sleepy issue on the clen I meant clom.

I guess my primary questions now are, as far as AI... Do I continue to take my current dose throughout the cycle, or cease it? Believe its .5mg per week currently, quarter tabs on monday with T injection and quarter on thurs with Hcg.

During post, how will I know if I need to run nolva? Blood levels, or should I be paying attention to standard low T side effects?





Think you're entirely right! Seems to be the general consenus to avoid NPP first cycle, and introduce for second/third maybe depending on how first goes.

As for climbing, as much as I love it... Its not in line with my goals. I definetly want to focus on weights for the time being, and maybe reincorporate climbing during a shred phase. But for now, bulk-bulk-bulk. Climbing is super tough on the joints/ligament/tendons... So youre 100% correct to have that concern!


Thank y'all very much for taking the time to advise! I sincerely appreciate it, and no good advice will be ignored. (Yeah, definetly not running tren on cycle 1... Maybe later on.)

Lastly, question about T sources. Is there any -major- difference between enanthate, cypionate and proprionate? Or the t-400? If so, which would be best for this given circumstance? Everything Ive seen, its mostly just a branding thing? But same mechanism of action.
Click to expand...

Just a few nolva is fine.
Obviously not for PCT, but just in case your chest and nipples get itchy or sensitive, it will help prevent a gyno flare up until you can get your AI dialed in.

Like @cochino said
Wait for bloods.

good luck bro
 
Glad to see you’re taking the long game approach. Dial in that trt. AI’s as prescribed by dr. When you do pull the trigger on a cycle you may not need to adjust it at all. stick with cyp or enanth. No need for prop. And the T400’s can sometimes be harsh so probably easiest with the standard 250mg/ml.
and when the time comes consider eod or e3d injections. Optional though.
Low and slow brother. Enjoy the journey.
 
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