fractionated serum estrogens

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by robertin75, Jul 9, 2005.

  1. #1
    robertin75

    robertin75 Junior Member

    Hi:

    I had my total E's measured last May and they came up elevated, at 317
    pg/ml with Quest's Diagnostics reference range of < 130 pg/ml.

    Then, one month later, my doctor decided to retest and they dropped to
    181 pg/ml, which are still elevated. He doesn't have any clue of why
    this happened. According to what I have read, my total Estrogens
    should be around 88 pg/ml (2/3's of the reference range), right?

    Can you guys think of any reason for this drop?

    I already asked Quest for an explanation but they told me that the
    high estrogen levels could have been caused by some estrogen
    injection, which of course I didn't take. They refused to retest me
    again as they told me that there's no lab error.

    Also, within this total estrogen result of 181 pg/ml, I was also
    tested for estrogens, fractionated in serum (also from Quest) with the
    following results:

    Total Estrogens 181 pg/ml ranges < 130
    FRACTIONATED ESTROGENS, SERUM

    Estradiol 30 pg/ml ranges 10-60
    Estrone 37 pg/ml ranges 15-65
    Estriol < 0.10 ng/ml ranges < 0.2

    Total testosterone 588 ng/dl ranges 189-1111
    Free Testosterone 1.70% or 99.9 pg/ml ranges 1.1-2.8% and 40-150

    According to Quest's lab info, the total estrogen assay measures E1
    and E2, but if we add 30+37 = 67 pg/ml, it doesn't match with the 181
    pg/ml (total estrogens). Basically we are having a difference of 114
    pg/ml, which makes me wonder if there's another estrogen compound that
    is being measured in the total estrogens test (maybe estrone sulfate
    or another one)?

    Has anyone been tested for estrone sulfate?

    Too bad I didn't get the estrogens fractionated in serum when my total
    estrogens came back to 317 pg/ml. It would have been great to see how
    my estrone and estradiol were at that time.

    I'm not on any HRT or any prescription drugs that could affect
    estrogen levels.

    I'm 29 years old and weight 47 kgs.

    I really don't think that it would be a good idea to start taking
    something to lower my estrogen levels, as this would be masking the
    real problem as to why I'm producing too much estrogen when I'm not on
    any HRT. (Any thoughts on this are greatly appreciated)

    Thanks and your help is greatly appreciated,
    Roberto
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2005
  2. #2
    robertin75

    robertin75 Junior Member

    Anyone with thoughts on this topic?

    Thanks,
    Roberto
     
  3. #3
    1cc

    1cc Junior Member

    Do you have any values for Total T and DHEA-s?
     
  4. #4
    robertin75

    robertin75 Junior Member

    Total T is in my first message:

    Total testosterone 588 ng/dl ranges 189-1111
    Free Testosterone 1.70% or 99.9 pg/ml ranges 1.1-2.8% and 40-150

    DHEAS 875.3 ng/ml ranges 63-4586 ng/ml. This one is within range for a 70 years old guy !!!

    Roberto
     
  5. #5
    mranak

    mranak Junior Member

    Are you having any symptoms of low testosterone or high estrogen?
     
  6. #6
    1cc

    1cc Junior Member

    Since your total T is not high and your DHEA-s is not high, I am not sure what could be causing your high Total Estrogens.
     
  7. #7
    robertin75

    robertin75 Junior Member

    Hi everyone:

    Yes, I am having several symptoms of high estrogen and I'm not sure if they are also from low T including bloating and the feeling that everytime I drink a single glass of water I get full and I can feel that it sits in my stomach even the day after after I wake up.

    It's like if you were hearing the sound of a balloon full of water.

    And, maybe some people are going to disagree with me, but I really think that E2 is not the only problem as far as estrogens.

    Most people seem to be concerned about E2 only but you should know some facts about the bad effects of long term high estrogen levels, including the following:

    1.- Estrogen increases thyroixne binding globulin, and this will cause you to have hypothyroid symptoms because less thyroid hormone is free for your tissues.

    2.- Estrogen increases cortisol binding globulin, and this will cause you to have low cortisol symptoms because less cortisol hormone is free for your tissues.

    3.- Estrogen down regulates arginine vasopressin hormone (also known as antidiuretic hormone), which can make you feel dehydrated along with other symptoms of diabetes insipidus (not the typical diabetes melllitus that is associated with sugar imbalances).

    4.- Estrogens influence the secretion of CRH by the hypothalamus and the expression of glucocorticoid receptors, thus affecting the negative feedback to the hypothalamus.

    5.- Estrogens are implicated as enhancers of the immune response and
    androgens as natural suppressors. Estrogens may stimulate macrophages to produce TNF alpha, IL-1, and IL-6, B lymphocytes to produce immune globulins and inhibit T lymphocytes to produce IL-4, IL-2, and IFN gamma. Androgens may (to a lesser degree) have the opposite effects. Concentrations of estrogens at the level of the inflammatory area are increased due to increased aromatase activity (Cutolo, Genova).

    In other words, TNF alpha, IL-1, and IL-6 are bad proinflammatory cytokines in the long term, which are also potentiators of the HPA axis, which in turn, stimulate the adrenal glands to secrete glucocorticoids to counteract the bad effects of these cytokines.

    These are just some of the bad effects of long term high estrogen levels.

    As you can see, all the citations talk about estrogens in general, not just estradiol.

    Of course, I'm not saying that everyone will have these symptoms, because most people in TRT will have their estrogen levels monitored regularly and take the appropiate measures immediately if they get elevated, but for someone like me, that has never been on any HRT, who knows how long I have been suffering from high estrogen levels, as this last May was the first time in my life that I got my estrogen levels measured.

    Most endos I have been with either just measure estradiol or they simply don't measure total estrogen levels in males who are not on any HRT. They also think that estrogens are just female hormones and most labs I have consulted with don't include them in their male hormone profiles, which in my point of view is a BAD thing.

    Regards and any input is greatly appreciated,
    Roberto
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2005
  8. #8
    1cc

    1cc Junior Member

    Why don't you try some DIM with TMG to address your your High Total Estrogens. Is it possible that this lab test is wrong?
     
  9. #9
    robertin75

    robertin75 Junior Member

    I would doubt that Quest has committed an error twice, but it can happen. Maybe I will try another lab later.

    The thing is that even though in the second test my total estrogens dropped dramatically, they are still elevated.

    From what other people have mentioned, we sould keep our total E's in the 2/3rds of the reference range, so it would be like 88 pg/ml using Quest's assay, unless my math is wrong?.

    I may try some natural supplements to see if I notice some difference in my symptoms, but I would also like to discuss it further with my doctor (but I really doubt that he is aware of these products).

    Where do you get DIM with TMG?

    I know about the Indoplex/DIM, but I don't know anything about TMG.

    What is TMG and did you mean to get a product that has both DIM and TMG in it?

    If so, where do you guys purchase TMG?

    Thanks for your help,
    Roberto
     
  10. #10
    pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Junior Member

    Roberto

    Have you had your Liver tested it could be that something is wrong and your not getting rid of the E's.
    Phil
     
  11. #11
    robertin75

    robertin75 Junior Member

    Hi Phil:

    I was also concerned about some liver disease, but everything came back normal.

    My viral hepatic panel (Hepatitis A,B and C) as well as all my liver tests (ALT,AST, GGT, etc.) came back all negative and normal respectively.

    I may try another lab to see how my estrogen levels come back, but I chose Quest because from my point of view is one of the best labs for these kind of testing.

    I really had a bad time discussing this issue with the people at Quest, since my doctor doesn't have a clue of why in one month, my estrogen levels dropped from 317 to 181 pg/ml and why are they still elevated. He also didn't want to talk to Quest's people and told me to take care of everything by myself. As I said before, all that Quest had to say was that I probably took an estrogen injection !!. It's a shame that the patient has to deal with this kind of issues, when the responsible should be your doctor.

    Can you tell me if my suggested optimal reference range (as mentioned in another post) for total estrogens in men of around 88 pg/ml is ok, using Quest's assay of < 130 pg/ml?

    Thanks,
    Roberto
     
  12. #12
    pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Junior Member

    My Total E goes up with my E2 I am very high right now 452 pg/mL range <200 I am not that worryed about it as much as I am about E2. I talk to a guy in the Bahamas he can't find a Dr. sayed he felt like shit. And that he feels he has Low T but can't get it tested he is 37 no sex drive had ED and was very fatigued. He is a member at the Hyp.2 group sent me an E-Mail telling me he read what I had to say about taking Indolplex/DIM so he tryed it now he in not on T meds. After a week and a half he started getting morning wood and his ED was gone. I asked him what he ate in his diet he told me he does a lot of soy milk and eat a lot of it. I told him to stop eating that it is driving up his E2 and not to take anymore DIM unless he has this problem again. I just got an E-Mail from him saying he is doing great and his wife is very happy. He is now been good for 3 months and not taking DIM. So one does not know why there E goes up but some how you will figure it out.

    I think I read some where that Total E should be in the upper 1/3 of the range so your good on the range.
    Phil
     
  13. #13
    earthdog

    earthdog Junior Member

    Roberto,

    I don't know of anyone that sells a TMG and DIM combo. I got my TMG from lef.org. Here's a link to their TMG products.

    Like you, I have high total E and midrange E2. I have the same water retention issues as you. Swale is my doc, and just put me on 300mg DIM and 700mg TMG per day, with follow-up labs in 2 months. So, I'm taking 2 1/2 of the 120mg Phytopharmica Indolplex with DIM tablets and 1 1/2 of the 500mg lef.org TMG tablets per day. I'm also on TRT, which consists of 100mg T cyp and 2x250IU hcg per week.

    According to Swale, the DIM lowers one kind of estrogen but raises another. The TMG is supposed to handle the one that DIM raises. Or at least, that's the way I remeber him explaining it. I could have that all wrong.
     
  14. #14
    1cc

    1cc Junior Member

    You can get DIM and TMG from www.beyond-a-century.com as seperate items. Follow the instructions on their website for how to take it. The DIM can be very potent when you take it with oils, so you will have to pay attention with dosing it correctly.
     
  15. #15
    robertin75

    robertin75 Junior Member

    earthdog:

    Has your water retention problem improved with DIM and TMG?

    Thanks,
    Roberto
     
  16. #16
    earthdog

    earthdog Junior Member

    Roberto,

    I'm not sure. I think its too soon to tell. I was already taking one DIM tablet daily, so I already had some DIM on hand, and so I've been on the increased DIM dose for one week. I just received the TMG, so I've only been on it for a couple of days. I don't know how long its going to take to begin to show some effects. I guess I should have asked that question when I was in his office.

    A few weeks before that, my PCP put me on 12.5mg/day of HCTZ, a diruretic. That's a small dose. It helps a little, but not much. I'm hoping the DIM/TMG combo does the trick.
     
  17. #17
    1cc

    1cc Junior Member

    There is a guy that was experiencing bad edema for years and now it has completely gone after he started DIM, and he uses DIM 100mg with olive oil every 3-4 days from the above source. His sexual function has also resolved.
     
  18. #18
    pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Junior Member

    I need more info on TMG not sure if one needs to use it with Indolplex/DIM.
    Phil
     
  19. #19
    1cc

    1cc Junior Member

  20. #20
    pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Junior Member

    I also have high Total E and upper levels of E2 I had a hard time getting it down when I was first tested. After trying 3 brands of DIM I tryed arimidex I took 1/2 of a one mg. pill every other day for 4 weeks and it did nothing. So for the next 4 weeks I took 1/2 a pill every day and my levels came down. But trying to keep it down using Arimidex I kept going to low I was down to 1/4 of a pill every 5 days and going to low. I started taking Indolplex/DIM at the time I started I was at 20 need to keep it between 10 to 30. Taking one pill a day of Indolplex/DIM I went to low in 4 days.
    Your doing a lot of Indolplex/DIM I hope you don't go to low and if you do the longer you are low the worse it gets. Eight weeks is a long time if your to low. Do you get morning wood I did not have it for 30 yrs. starting on Indolplex/DIM it came back but time. So as per David Z if the wood goes away I stop taking the Indolplex/DIM untill the morning wood come back. Then I go back on it but take less. I use this as a gauge to tell when I am going to low on my E2.
    Phil
     

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