GH on empty stomach

Discussion in 'Steroid Forum' started by AnabolicAnimal, Apr 25, 2004.

  1. AnabolicAnimal

    AnabolicAnimal Junior Member

    ok i may just be splitting hairs here but i'm just curious as to know if there are any negatives or positives to taking GH on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. it's almost summer and i'm beginning to do cardio as soon as i wake up and i've also just begain useing 2IU of Junio first thing in the morning. now for the past 3 days i've been taking it the min i get out of bed(i feel like a kid at christmas every day running down stairs to open his present) then i do my cardio for 30-45 mins on an empty stomach. should i wait till i'm done with the cardio and take my shot after i finsh breakfast? or should i keep taking it as soon as i get up? is there much of a difference?
     
  2. greyowl

    greyowl Junior Member

    I'm interested in the answer to this as well. Some people say you should take it just before going to bed because doing so mimics the nautral cycle of GH secretion. Others say you should take it just before eating because it optimizes the uptake of aminos. And I know one or two who say you should take it on an empty stomach because carbs interfere with the absorption. I don't know enough about the science to say one way or an other.

    Lately I've been shooting 3 ius on an empty stomach and doing intense cardio within one hour of that. I notice no difference in performance but do notice that doing this appears to make it more difficult for me to lose weight (which is not the same as losing fat -- I may be on a weight plateau where I'm losing fat but its' being replace by water in the muscles, which is not such a bad thing).

    I wonder whether Einstein or Hogg can address this issue.
     
  3. eleven11

    eleven11 Member

    Just my .02. Gh should be taken in the AM. I read this on Serono's web page. Read that if taken at night it can shut down your natural GH production. Acording to them let your body do it's natural thing at night then continue with inj. first thing in the morning to keep it going.........11
     
  4. einstein1905

    einstein1905 Junior Member

    Since, for not very well-understood reasons, GH plasma levels don't rise immediately after injection (there is a delayed onset of GH plasma level peak, and therefore, activity), your actual state at the time of injection may not be very relevant (i.e. empty stomach vs well-fed state). I'm going to be staggering my insulin and GH to see if I can get their peaks to better line up with respect to timing (the goal being to take advantage of their respective and complementary amino acid shuttling properties)....we'll see if there is any noticeable difference.
    On a bit of a different note, but still related, a fasting state is when GH releases are highest (i.e. your GH pulses will release more GH at any time point during the day if you're in a fasting state vs a well-fed (post-prandial) state). Also, excercise induces release of GH, so cardio on an empty stomach may be beneficial to GH release in that regard, and this should still be unaffected by the exogenous GH shot, due to the delayed onset of activity. ***The reason the long lag in plasma level peaks doesn't make a lot of sense is that endogenous GH half-life is <10 minutes, but the graphs don't lie. I'll attach a graph that shows GH vs time, but keep in mind that this is quite an old study and there has been a recent study in rats (with assumedly more accurate techniques) that somewhat contradicts this long lag.

    I had to shrink the graphs to fit on here, but the top graph is exogenous GH (one bolus dose) over time, and the bottom graph (B) is endogenous GH in response to graph A (exogenous). Like I said, the study is old and somewhat refuted by a more recent rat study.
     
  5. einstein1905

    einstein1905 Junior Member

    I've always held the same belief, even that an afternoon shot should have very little adverse effects on your nocturnal GH pulses, but there are studies to support both for and against an injection immediately prior to sleep. I may try a pre bedtime injection for awhile to see if I notice any differences.
     
  6. eleven11

    eleven11 Member

    Let us know what you think. I've only done GH for rehab reasons and shot it in the morn. have never messed with ins. and gh. ..............11
     
  7. GRANVILLE

    GRANVILLE Junior Member

    I know we are all different, and that hgh can effect us all differently, but from my own 2 year plus "experiments", I cycle hgh for three months and then have a break, during the break as I have access to the equipment I get all my levels checked, and for me if I inject p.m. particularly just before sleep, my own igf-1 levels are VERY COPROMISED and stay low during my off period, even at silly levels of 1iu per day. Even whilst I was using relatively large doses (10ius per day) first thing in the morning, my own production didn't appear compromised during my off cycle what so ever, it may just be coincidence, but now I'm using only 1 or 2ius per day, first thing in the morning only, my own igf-1 levels during my off time are now higher than they were before I first started using several years ago.
     
  8. einstein1905

    einstein1905 Junior Member

    Interesting. Are you getting IGF-1 levels checked clinically or by a more research lab-oriented manner? If clinically, are you just using the IGFBP method?
    The way GH and therefore IGF-1 is regulated, there should be no adverse effects on endogenous production/release of either GH or IGF-1 within 48hrs after the last exogenous injection (and that's a liberal time estimate).
    Have you checked your own IGF-1 levels vs time after GH administration?
     
  9. GRANVILLE

    GRANVILLE Junior Member

    Sorry got to keep this brief, my daughters just phoned cos she's pranged her car.

    Tests done in the lab, I understand the theory behind how your own production should return to normal, but mine doesn't even 2 weeks after last administration of hgh if I use it p.m. it may be because I'm 40, I'm convinced everything is age related. I'm not trying to state fact, just relating an answer to a question raised on timing of injections, from my own personal experiences. I have never explored my levels during cycling of hgh, just post cycle to see how growth over a period of time effected my own production, as you well know there are some theories regarding hgh which dont always work out in practice, on a personal level I believe that any hgh administerd p.m. will knock anybodies own production particularly if you are older and your levels are lower anyway. I will check what goes on when I'm cycling, as that would be interesting, but I doubt my recovery will be good
     
  10. GRANVILLE

    GRANVILLE Junior Member

    Einstein, before you do a bedtime injection, please can I pass this information onto you, this is based on compiled inter-hospital information, not scientific fact. At the clinic that I am employed, 37 first class footballers have been refered for help with serious leg injuries, most having one leg long term in plaster with the consequent muscle "deteriation". After hgh therapy all made very good recoveries, but 29 of them were refered back months later because of reduced performance levels not associated with their injuries. All had complete screening, and all of them had testosterone and igf-1 levels that would only have been acceptable for a person twice their age, the reason this is not scientific fact is because their levels weren't screened before the "repair" procedure. All had late p.m. hgh administration, this has caused enough concern in the hospital, for a dictate only allowing early a.m. admin. of hgh, and this for me is enough evidence to steer clear of "late" injections of hgh. I understand fully the arguement that hgh administration should not impair your own bodies potential to produce, but based on these results I feel anyone should be VERY wary of p.m. hgh injections. Nutropin depot was not used, or I would more fully understand the reasoning, I am convinced a lot more "facts" on hgh administration will be available in the near future, in this country, footballers are concidered to be the ultimate fitness machines, so based on what the records say, I can only conclude that hgh caused the long term lowering of the footballers hormone levels
     
  11. GRANVILLE

    GRANVILLE Junior Member

    For the record, 2-6ius of growth were used per day for between 12 and 16 weeks, both dependent on severity of the injury
     
  12. greyowl

    greyowl Junior Member

    Granville, one question I have about your interpretation of the results is the lowered testosterone levels in these guys. I wonder how administration of gh would effect the HTPA axis.

    Also, are you suggesting that the GH caused this all, or that it was the fact that the GH was administered at night?
     
  13. GRANVILLE

    GRANVILLE Junior Member

    I've been researching the effects of gh on rats for numerous years now, and some of the findings are not what would be expected, the whole hgh issue is very controversial, and views vary quite extremely.

    Back to your question, the clinic that I do work for and myself, are of the opinion that with hgh, timing is more important than possibly the amount used, I trully believe that hgh administered at night will compromise your own production quite dramaticaly, as it did to me. The clinic obviously feel the same, as administration of hgh other than first thing a.m. is a sackable offence now.

    I've tried hgh at various levels on myself over the years, and although the time to see results may take slightly longer at lower levels (particularly any muscle gain) using 1iu per day first thing upon waking, but for a prolonged period, will give the health benefits you are seeking, at minimal financial cost. I'll expand on my theories at a later date, but if we assume humans have similar biology to rats, then this is borne out by my current experimentation.

    Most doctors just check igf-1 levels, or test levels etc. but from all the data I have seen, all the hormone pathways are linked, i.e. if your gh levels are low, so are your test levels to match etc. I amongst others now use hgh for pct, and its proven far more effective than clomid etc. for me
     
  14. einstein1905

    einstein1905 Junior Member

    Thank you for sharing those results....they are interesting. Even though there wasn't any baseline levels taken, there is obviously enough of a trend for concern. It certainly doesn't mesh with current theories, but the world is no longer thought to be flat either.
    Test can increase GH--->igf-1 levels, but the opposite, in a less direct way, can be true too. Elevated GH levels have been associated with increased prolactin (inhibitory to HPTA). However, this is naturally occuring elevated GH levels, which would tell me there is a hypothalamic or anterior pituitary problem, so increased prolactin makes sense too. Exogenous GH, I would think, would have the opposite effect. I have no real point....I'm just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts?

    I'm starting to have more faith in those older GH studies that show exogenous GH having a significant lag effect and therefore not having inhibitory efects on endogenous GH for at least 2-4hrs after administration. If this is the case, then your major GH pulse during phase IV sleep shouldn't be affected.
    There is a more recent rat study that contradicts this lag time. I you're interested, I'll dig it up.
     
  15. GRANVILLE

    GRANVILLE Junior Member

    Thanks, I would imagine I have already seen it, so much information comes through the clinic daily.

    I'm still somewhat sceptical about some results (not saying I think they are necessarily fixed) just that even in house here, one researchers findings contradict anothers working in the lab next to them on occasion, spoiling many months of research, but still better than making the wrong assumptions.

    Please keep sharing your information, I think you would be quite suprised how much is kept from us in the u.k., and I wouldn't be suprised if information is censored in the u.s. as well, even though we have the internet.
     
  16. einstein1905

    einstein1905 Junior Member

    Some of the best clinical studies on GH, which are relevant to us, aren't online at all. There are two excellent books that have numerous long-term, high dose clinical studies (many are European). One book is "Human Growth Hormone: Research and Clinical practice", edited by Thorner and Smith. The other is "Growth Hormone" by bengsston, I believe. If you have access to a good med school library, you should find these, and they are very insightful.

    Here's a recent rat study that somewhat contradicts the long lag in endogenous GH inhibition in response to exogenous GH:
    http://forums.anabolicreview.com/showthread.php?t=94345
     
  17. supwiz

    supwiz Member

    Thanx guys, outstanding info. on GH. Keep it coming. I'm on trt which keeps my igf-1 levels high normal. Do you think there's any advantage for doing additional GH? Thanx, Greg B.
     
  18. einstein1905

    einstein1905 Junior Member

    Whether or not there are advantages will depend on what your goals are, as well as your age.