HCG/Testicle Size

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by JimRat, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. #1
    JimRat

    JimRat Junior Member

    Hi all.....About a year ago, my testicles lost size inexplicably. I'm 38 and never had sexual issues previously. This loss of size occurred about 3 months after a bout of mono. I also have been treated for hypothyroidism for about 7 years with synthroid. During the first several months of facing this, doctors (uro's) were generally unhelpful. A couple said I was fine. One recommended T which I was apprehensive to start because I'm still young and want to preserve fertility. At the time, my total T was about 500. An ultrasound did not find any vascular issues. Cancer was ruled out via the ultrasound and blood work. LH and FSH were about 1.8 each so I assumed I was secondary but I could not find a good doc until about 7 months after onset. Currently, I have a good hormone doc who tested me on clomid for a few months. Clomid bumped my total T from the mid 400s to the low 600s so I assumed that was confirmation of secondary hypo. About 4 weeks ago, I started hcg shots at 500 IUs 3x a week. The T has come up more to about 700. However, the testicles show no sign of bouncing back yet. Is this a sperm production issue? Will it take longer given the time I was untreated (about 8 months)? I've heard that sperm production takes 3 months to get back online. Or do I need a higher dosing of HCG? Or am I looking at other issues? My doc suggested that my adrenals may be sluggish too. Plus my ferritin is 15. Sorry to be rambling. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks guys.
     
  2. #2
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    4 weeks may not be long enough.
    Guy on AM board, secondary, uses much larger weekly dose with good results.
    500iu every day should still be ok, he uses more than that.

    Use iron supplementation, your ferritin is low.
    .
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  3. #3
    jinxie1

    jinxie1 Junior Member

    Jan, if you are talking about Kolkurtz, he doesnt use that much anymore. I think he uses right around 1500 IUs per week. Something close to that should get it done. Sure, higher may take the T higher, but I don think it will make his nads any bigger.
     
  4. #4
    JimRat

    JimRat Junior Member

    I'm at a loss as to why I'm not getting any kick back in terms of testicle size. It seems T is going up as it should. My only guess is that sperm production is offline. I've heard a little about HMG. Perhaps that would be more effective. I know hcg has some FSH effect but presumably not as much as HMG. Anyone know what the cost comparison between HCG and HMG is?
     
  5. #5
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    Forget about HMG, expensive, unles you want to get her pregnant and it does not work on HCG alone.


    Switching from Crisler Protocol to hCG Monotherapy???

    Ask colkurtz_spf
    find out what he is doing now.

    post #3
    quote:
    I spent close to a year on 8000 IUs per week with 10,000 during the first 2 months.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2008
  6. #6
    jinxie1

    jinxie1 Junior Member

    Like I said, he dropped below 2k IUs and has had good results.
     
  7. #7
    jinxie1

    jinxie1 Junior Member

    Actually, he's at 2k IU (500, 500, 1000 IU split) and 1.5 mgs adex per week. 500-600 EOD would probably be a good place to start for monotherapy, under the care of a doctor, of course.
     
  8. #8
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    I am at 500iu EOD
     
  9. #9
    jinxie1

    jinxie1 Junior Member

    Jan, I'm talking about hcg monotherapy. Your dose is quite large considering your substantial T-cyp dosage, as well as the adex. Perhaps you are a hyper metabolizer. If used what you are using, my TT would be 2000.

    I hope it gives you some robust, corpulent, productive nuts! ;)
     
  10. #10
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    I said in another place, but it will not hurt to repeat it.

    It sounds logical to me to support testicles with HCG in a maximum healthy way.
    Then as a second phase to add testosterone if testicles are not able to produce enough.
    Additional testosterone should be dosed in such a way as to arrive at proper BioAvalableTestosterone level.

    250iu twice weekly is not even close to what testicles need for a full support.
    In my personal experience, 500iu EOD does not create high E2 levels.
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  11. #11
    jinxie1

    jinxie1 Junior Member

    Jan, from my perspective, you are taking in a lot of hcg for aesthetic, largely non-functional nuts. But they are yours, and you need to act according to your priorities. I'm of the camp that less is better, unless it advances my health, and I don't view nourishing non-functional testicles with a high dose of hCG as advancing health. IMO, you are over medicating. But it's your body, and I hope it serves the desired goal.

    I think 1500 IUs per week is entirely ample as a starting point for hCG monotherapy (more would be needed if you are looking to jump start); it's WAY too much when on a full dosage of T cyp (75 - 150 mgs per week), which could cause a number of problems, most notably high E2. And, I also believe that 550 IUs of hCG per week is enough for many of us to maintain testicular size while taking T cyp.

    I think it is VERY important to be mindful that some folks on this board are looking to self-treat, and they read posts as the gospel, making it very important to post responsibly about suggested dosages. Any treatment should be under the direction of a doctor competent in HRT.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2008
  12. #12
    jinxie1

    jinxie1 Junior Member

    Jan, 500 IUs doesnt crank your E2 up because your testicles are largely non-functional. That is not the case for many of us. This further makes me wonder why you are gobbling up all this hCG. But again, it's your body, dude.
     
  13. #13
    JimRat

    JimRat Junior Member

    Currently, I am using hcg monotherapy at 500IUs 3x a week as stated and I'm under the care of a good doctor--female at that! She's better than most of the male docs I've seen. Like I said, my T is going up(700 total +/-) but sac size is still diminished. Perhaps I'd do well on a slightly higher dose for a while. I just did another blood test this week and will see the doc again in earlier May. I'm trying to give the HCG some time to work before I ask to add the T as well.

    I could have adrenal and/or thyroid issues that are undermining my progress thus far....

    Thanks for the help.
     
  14. #14
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    Three pieces of info to gain perspective on 2x250iu/week=500iu/week:

    one, Phil is on E3D schedule, he does T shots every three days and 400iu on days in between.

    So his weekly dose is (2*400)*7/3=1867iu

    My dose is 500iu EOD 500*7/2=1750iu (my dose is smaller than Phil's)

    Healthy testis require 306iu EOD to have 100% support.
    That is 306*7/2=1071

    See my post #62
    Jan's BloodTest April13/2007 - Page 3
    there is reference to study and my derivation of the number.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So even the highest (Phil's) number is still much much lower that 8000iu/week used by colkurtz_spf
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Note also that if the combination (HCG +T) produces too high Total testosterone, my opinion is that supplemental testosterone should be reduced (not the HCG) up to the total exclusion of suplemental testosterone.

    Why not benefit from testosterone that can be produced by ones own body.
     
  15. #15
    jinxie1

    jinxie1 Junior Member

    Jan, the primary point I am trying to make is that guys with functional testicles should not follow your plan, as they will be drastically overly medicating. Just your hcg dose would take many of us into optimal TT range. Likewise, your Test. dose, which I believe is around 175 mgs/week, would take many of us beyond an optimal TT by itself.

    As one of the most educated and prolific posters on this board, I fear that some may misinterpret your posts, and figure what is good for you is good for them, which, more often than not, will not be the case.

    If I followed your plan, my TT would likely be at supraphysiological levels by a long shot, and I'd be taking a couple mgs of adex to control raging E2. And I am sure my BP and cholestrol would also be out of control and in need of medication.

    In any event, I hope what you are doing works for you and you get those larger firmer boys you are looking for.

    J
     
  16. #16
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    If this is true:

    Quote:
    Just your hCG dose would take many of us into optimal TT range.

    Then that person should not use any external testosterone.
    .
    .
     
  17. #17
    jinxie1

    jinxie1 Junior Member

    Jan, you need to put it in context. Your concept of optimal is a lot higher than mine. I'm looking for FT between 180 and 200.
     
  18. #18
    berlin

    berlin Junior Member

    Why maintain full-size, non-functional nuts?

    If you go on HRT (or steroids) long enough, the Leydig cells go dormant and eventually die off. By keeping them primed, the Leydig cells are not dormant for long periods of time so they don't die. This avoids the much larger problem of primary hypogonadism and infertility. Search Medline, it's all there.
     
  19. #19
    JanSz

    JanSz Junior Member

    If you have particular research in mind, please give a link.
    Otherwise sending someone to do his own search is helpfull but rather limited.
     
  20. #20
    berlin

    berlin Junior Member

    I do have specific research in mind - I printed it out a few years ago when I started HRT. Unfortunately, I have no idea where it went and I don't have time to track it down again. If it's important to you, I'm sure you'll handle it. . .
     

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