HGH with T4 rather than T3?

Discussion in 'Human Growth Hormone and Peptides' started by amar7, Aug 13, 2017.

  1. amar7

    amar7 Member

    Hi,

    there are quite a few postings that urge the user to take T4 instead t3 with HGH. Is that so far proven to be the better combination?

    Amar7
     
  2. master.on

    master.on Member

    What's the rationale for it?

    While studies suggest that GH might increase T4 to T3 conversion
    The influence of growth hormone and thyroxine on iodothyronine deiodinase activity in the liver, kidney and brown adipose tissue in hypophysectomiz... - PubMed - NCBI
    Growth hormone acutely decreases type III iodothyronine deiodinase in chicken liver - ScienceDirect
    GH therapy alters circulating thyroid hormones, deiodinase activity in men
    it only seems to happen in lab animals and men with hypopituitarism, not in normal men who don't need any GH.

    So far I haven't seen any proof of GH users getting high blood T3 levels and full-blown hyperthyroidism symptoms.

    OTOH androgens do increase said T4 to T3 conversion a bit.
     
  3. amar7

    amar7 Member

    It is not a study, but an article

    "So we want elevated t3 levels when we take GH, or we won’t be getting ANYWHERE NEAR the full anabolic effect of our injectable GH without enough T3. And now we know that not only do we need the additional T3, but we actually want the CONVERSION process of T4 into T3 to take place, because it’s the presence of those mediator enzymes that will allow the T3 to be synergistic with GH, instead of being inhibitory as is seen when T3 is simply added to a GH cycle. And remember, we don’t only want T3 levels high, but we want types 1 and 2 deiodinase to get us there- and when we take supplemental T3, that just doesn’t happen…all that happens is the type 3 deiodinase enzyme shows up and negates the beneficial effects of the T3 when we combine it with GH."

    Thyroid Hormone + Growth Hormone - If You Aren’t Using T4 with Your GH, You’re Not Doing It Right

    This got me thinking especially for the reason that there are no other sites or specialists that make the same claim, but this guy still, in theory, sounds like he knew what he was talking about. What is your take on this?

    BTW, idk if you are into HGH research, but it is usual to take thyroid hormone along with HGH, but most do take the active form T3 over T4, while the rationale of Anthony is that the conversion process, that is accelerated by HGH, in itself has benefits.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  4. Dr JIM

    Dr JIM Member

    News flash this same OPINION has been posted on Meso many times.
     
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  5. kaneman

    kaneman Member

    I'd be very interested to hear your opinion on this subject given your extensive knowledge
     
    3ml likes this.
  6. master.on

    master.on Member

    Where are the hordes of people with thyroid problems from excess deiodinase levels,
    getting acromegaly symptoms like clockwork?

    That never happens
    so the T4/t3/gh is just a theory proven wrong.
     
  7. Dr JIM

    Dr JIM Member

    While supplemental GH necessitates enhanced thyroxine secretion only those with preexisting thyroid dysfunction, or perhaps those using VERY HIGH GH doses (like 10 IU of Pharma daily), are unable to accelerate endogenous
    production to meet the demand.

    Baseline Thyroid fct testing provides the most reliable answer with respect to who, may benefit from supplemental Thyroxine.

    The latter is important bc for the overwhelming majority of folk the use of Thyroxine as a GH "ancillary" is not only unwarranted, it significantly increases CV side effects, especially when used for the many months that are typical of GH "cycling".
     
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  8. JackTorrance

    JackTorrance Junior Member

    I read on other forums that GH improves conversion of T4 to t3, but according to this thread perhaps that has been debunked? I definitely see more people stacking HGH with T3, which is the active hormone and the one that really "works."

    I'm actually hypothyroid and on T4 for replacement, so running GH I will probably stick to the T4 unless it's going to pose a problem to do so. I'm only on 50 mcg per day but it keeps me totally stable and my levels are in the upper range.
     
  9. ChestRockwell

    ChestRockwell Member

    There is no "debunk", it has been demonstrated numerous times in the literature, on both healthy and GHD subjects, that peripheral T4-->t3 conversion rates increase in the presence of GH.

    The real question, however, is whether or not this acute stimulation is sustained as most longer-term studies seem to indicate this is a transitory effect which stabilizes over time.
     
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  10. master.on

    master.on Member

    Nice

    Just curious if this is similar to studies showing AAS increase T4 to T3 conversion?
    All BBers do fine with this increased conversion without needing any additional T4. How is that different for GH?
     
  11. amar7

    amar7 Member

    That is what I meant. Also there is another theory that I wonder if it could work or not, is to take botch the inactive T4 and the active T3, exogenous intake of hormones supress the natural release often, the question is, would the exogenous intake of T3 reduce the conversion of the exogenous intake of T4 via deiodinase?

    You seem to have researched the subject, I hope you can think with me on this one, as I am planning to soon start my next HGH cycle and still on the fence on which form of thyroid medication I will take
     
  12. amar7

    amar7 Member

  13. Dr JIM

    Dr JIM Member

    Ive no doubt a majority of those who partake in this sort of PED micromanagement would benefit considerably if instead of focusing on minutia of this order would divert all the time, money and effort towards that which DOES matter, namely DIET and EXERCISE routine.

    Oh I know but, but, but -----
     
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  14. amar7

    amar7 Member

    For a Dr you have quite allot of cynicism.. my last HGH cycle was really good without thyroid medication and I want to optimize my next one. Might be micromanagement, which I acually do tend to, but might also be just a way to make the most of the next HGH cycle which is what I intend to do.
     
  15. So here's my experience in using GH for 2 "cycles" of 5-6 months each working up to 5iu.

    I work in a lab and am able to test my blood whenever I feel like it. I've checked my thyroid levels at multiple points and they were unchanged from my baseline normals, just like my fasting blood sugar. This is my personal experience and have no pre-existing health conditions.
     
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  16. ChestRockwell

    ChestRockwell Member

    Speaking purely of growth phases here because there are certainly reasons why one would want to run exogenous thyroid alongside GH when dieting for maximal lipolytic effects.

    I've run GH with and without thyroid and not notice a difference at all. And because I'm traditionally a "minimum effective dose" and "only run what you need without excess muda" in the stack guy, I would urge you to consider foregoing the thyroid.
     
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  17. BigJon85

    BigJon85 Junior Member

    I was taking 5iu a day of growth for two weeks and felt great for the 1st week then the 2nd week came and I started getting what felt like anxiety attacks, irregular heartbeat, palpitations and general bad feeling. After research and blood tests it turned out my t3 was through the roof and t4 was entirely depleted and causing hyperthyroidism hence the symptoms. Started supplementing t4 into my cycle and symptoms went away. I’m no lab animal either I am a 7 year gear user now aged 32 who was trying growth for the 1st time. So I know in my own experience hgh can play with t3/4 levels to the point you will get hyperthyroidism. The time of day injecting hgh plays a part too I now believe daytime injections are wrong and disturb your natural body clock causing problems with the various glands hgh reacts/works with. Bedtime only for me and run some t4 even better if you diet well and draw it from a natural source such as Brazil nuts. Everybody reacts differently to gear/growth but this was my experience that I can share.
     
  18. Dr JIM

    Dr JIM Member

    Might want to see a Doc, to confirm your suspicions Thyroxine
    is the source of your symptoms, bc IME that’s rarely the case.

    Oh and you might also want to conduct more research on HGH
    and HYPER-thyroidism.
     
    ChestRockwell likes this.
  19. BigJon85

    BigJon85 Junior Member

    I understand from reading this thread you’ve obviously got a bit of a chip on your shoulder about this for some strange reason, that you’re on one side of the fence and wouldn’t see it (more likely understand it) from anyone else’s point of view but your own so I’m not sure there is much point talking..

    I did see my gp and was honest about what I was taking and how, it was my doctor who explained it to me that hgh is only released naturally at night and works in sync with various glands and by supplementing it exogenously in the daytime I’m stimulating my thyroid gland into overly secreting which would cause my symptoms. Blood tests then confirmed my low t4 levels. I stopped hgh during the daytime and took some t4 tabs within a week I was back to normal with symptoms gone. Black and white.. stonewall experience for me I’m happy to share.

    It’s amusing that you’re completely ignorant to the fact that everyone reacts differently to substances and would rather psychotically pounce on anyone who’s had a different experience (I didn’t reply to you) but it’s cool and bless your pal faithfully liking your posts lol.

    P.s. you said to do more research on hgh and hyperthyroidism however may I suggest you actually do any because it’s a very commonly known problem. Here’s a link to one of the many medical studies regarding said subject you can find online if you are not able to speak to your own doctor like I was able to do.

    Effects of growth hormone replacement therapy on thyroid function tests in growth hormone deficient children (PDF Download Available)
     
  20. Dr JIM

    Dr JIM Member

    Apparently you didn’t read the study or understand HOW to interpret the results of this study or several others like it bc HYPERTHYROIDISM is NOT an
    side effect of HGH therapy in children or adults.

    I also doubt you know how to interpret thyroid function tests either, so much for “your experience”.