Joints/Tendons/Bone

Discussion in 'Steroid Forum' started by pauladrive, Aug 27, 2010.

  1. pauladrive

    pauladrive Member

    i've heard that EQ actually increases tendon strength and can be stacked with test to sort of counter-act the test from impairing the tendons. was planning on including it in my next cycle when winter gets here , wanted to try a lower dose of test (500mg of Enanthate), 600mg of deca/ and a low dose of EQ to keep the tendons strong. the deca is awesome for collagen synthesis and helps with joint pain which is crucial for powerlifting ---- i found an article in my research file ..

    While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

    Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

    Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

    Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

    You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

    Deca, equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

    While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

    To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

    Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood.

    Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

    Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

    Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

    These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

    Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

    Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

    GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

    Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

    Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS --
    i clicked on a link from here i dont want to advertise but heres the link What is Equipoise? | eHow.com
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2011
  2. OhNoYo

    OhNoYo Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    pauladrive, I have read this same article that you have posted on this forum too somewhere. Though the information is extremely interesting and informative, unfortunately there isn't any references to back the data in it, so you don't know how much information as which information to accurately believe from the article. IMO though, you should just stack nandrolone and testosterone together and forget about the boldenone. As for injuring yourself, as long as you use proper form and don't overtrain, I don't think you have anything to worry about. What doses do you normally use in your cycles and what doses do you plan on using in ur next cycle, Sir?
     
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  3. pauladrive

    pauladrive Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    Got tennis elbow from over training trying to build up forearms .

    sustenon250x2 week mon-thurs for 12 wks
    d-bol 50 mg 1-4 weeks
    deca nandrolone 300 mg 4- 12 weeks
    clomids -

    next going with the poise , this stack for now its a lite one but it works


    as far as the prior post i ran into it going back on it looking to post the link its associated with a fitness mag , so didnt know if i should put the link up -conflict of intrest i think , so good correction ,
     
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  4. OhNoYo

    OhNoYo Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    The dosages you are using are lower than what I see most ppl taking on this forum. IMO though, I would consider to stop orals for a really long time though cold turkey, Sir. I know it will be hard on you both physically and mentally, BUT in the long run ur liver will thank you! :) ;)
    Are you going to use boldenone (EQ) in this cycle u posted, and if so, at what dose and duration?
     
  5. big_tom

    big_tom Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    I LOVE EQ. it works but you'll want to run it 12 weeks for optimal performance at any where between 400-600mg per week. You will feel it brother. I've ran it in so many of my cycles it's basically a staple for me. Some just plain don't like it though. To each his own.
     
  6. pauladrive

    pauladrive Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    what is this a cheap shot physiology put down ,Sir lmao [:eek:)]
     
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  7. OhNoYo

    OhNoYo Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    Keep us updated on what you decide ur cycle to b as wel as keep us updated on ur progress, Sir! :D
     
  8. Renegade69

    Renegade69 Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    Has anyone on here ever ran EQ at 900mg/wk? For 12-13 weeks? How do you guys think that would work out?
     
  9. OhNoYo

    OhNoYo Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    IMO you should probably ask this ? in a new thread that you started, Sir, as you will get better answers.
     
  10. pauladrive

    pauladrive Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    I think thats a good idea, its good to see good threads and good subjects.. Good topic on Eq .sir.
     
  11. Reinheart

    Reinheart Member

    Re: *EQ increases tendon strength*

    Extremely good article and to the point. When looking to run a cycle for tendon and lignament strength, you should keep the test dosage bellow the 300mgs mark per week.

    200-250mgs per week maybe actually strengthen the tendons.

    If i were to run a cycle for this purpose it would like:

    Weeks 1-6: 50mgs Anavar
    Weeks 1-8: 300-400mgs NPP
    Weeks 1-12: 400-600mgs EQ
    Weeks 1+2: 750mgs test
    Weeks 3-12: 250mgs test
     
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  12. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    Anabolic Steroids (AAS) & Joints/Tendons Injuries

    Osteoarthritis of the knee is one of the leading causes of pain and disability for the knee. Total joint replacement is generally accepted as the main treatment for end-stage osteoarthritis. In fact it has revolutionized the treatment of disabling arthritis of the lower extremity. Osteoarthritis of the knee is common and affects 10% of the population aged over 55. Close to 125.000 procedures were performed in the United States Medicare population in 1995 and 20.000 were performed in Australia in 2009. Long term studies on survivorship use end points such as revision surgery and reported survival rates between 84% and 98% at 15 years. Whilst patients report an overall improvement after surgery the benefits after surgery are most significant for pain and stiffness 3 months after surgery. Substantial functional improvement using effect sizes of outcome measures are higher rated by surgeons whereas patients derived measures showed effect smaller effect sizes. Muscle strength, especially quadriceps strength has been shown to be highly correlated with functional performance and undergoes a decline after surgery. Improving postoperative muscle strength could thus be important to accelerate recovery and enhance the potential benefits of total knee arthroplasty.

    Anabolic steroids have long been used by athletes to improve their performance. They have potent anabolic effects on the musculoskeletal system, including an increase in lean body mass, a dose-related hypertrophy of muscle fibers, and an increase in muscle strength and mass. The use of anabolic steroids in elderly patients after knee replacement could therefore have beneficial effects on postoperative development of muscle strength. This possible may result in faster recovery and earlier mobilization. In addition anabolic steroids may have an effect on bone mineral density.

    The purpose of this study was to investigate the effects of small doses of Nandrolone decanoate on recovery and muscle strength after total knee replacement. A research hypothesis was formulated that there would be a difference between the group who received anabolic steroids resulting in faster recovery, higher muscle strength and increased bone mineral density compared to the group that only received normal saline injections.


    Hohmann E, Tetsworth K, Hohmann S, Bryant AL. Anabolic steroids after total knee arthroplasty. A double blinded prospective pilot study. J Orthop Surg Res;5:93. Journal of Orthopaedic Surgery and Research | Full text | Anabolic steroids after total knee arthroplasty. A double blinded prospective pilot study

    BACKGROUND: Total knee arthroplasty is reported to improve the patient's quality of life and mobility. However loss of mobility and pain prior to surgery often results in disuse atrophy of muscle. As a consequence the baseline functional state prior to surgery may result in poorer outcome "post surgery" and extended rehabilitation may be required. The use of anabolic steroids for performance enhancement and to influence muscle mass is well established. The positive effects of such treatment on bone and muscle could therefore be beneficial in the rehabilitation of elderly patients. The purpose of this study was to investigate the effects of small doses of Nandrolone decanoate on recovery and muscle strength after total knee replacement and to establish the safety of this drug in multimorbid patients.

    METHODS: This study was designed as a prospective double blind randomized investigation. Five patients (treatment group) with a mean age of 66.2 (58-72), average BMI of 30.76 (24.3-35.3) received 50 mg nandrolone decanoate intramuscular bi-weekly for 6 months. The control group (five patients; mean age 65.2, range 59-72; average BMI 31.7, range 21.2-35.2) was injected with saline solution. "Pre-operatively" and "post-operatively" (6 weeks, 3,6,9 and 12 months) all patients were assessed using the knee society score (KSS), isokinetic strength testing and functional tests (a sit-to-stand and timed walking tests). In addition, a bone density scan was used preoperatively and 6 month postoperatively to assess bone mineral density. RESULTS: Whilst the steroid group generally performed better than the placebo group for all of the functional tests, ANOVA failed to reveal any significant differences. The steroid group demonstrated higher levels of quadriceps muscle strength across the postoperative period which reached significance at 3 (p = 0.02), 6 (p = 0.01), and 12 months (p = 0.02). There was a significant difference for the KSS at 6 weeks (p = 0.02), 6 (p = 0.02) and 12 month (p = 0.01). The steroid group demonstrated a reduction in the amount of bone mineral density at both the femur and lumbar spine from "pre-" to "post-surgery", however, these results did not reach significance (p < 0.05) using one-way ANOVA.

    CONCLUSIONS: This project strongly suggests that the use of anabolic steroids result in an improved outcome as assessed by the KSS and significantly increases extensor strength. No side effects were seen in either the study or control group.

    TRIAL REGISTRATION NUMBER: Regional Health District: Register No. 03.05Human Research Ethics Committee University: Clearance Number: 04/03-19.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  13. scotch

    scotch Junior Member

    Question for the experts/docs on use of HGH/AAS as part of ligament/tendon rehab plan

    I am new around here but not new to this lifestyle. I have searched these forums and although I didn’t find answers to my questions, I can say you guys have a great community here.

    Once upon a time I got paid to tackle people. I am now a middle aged, injury prone, washed up meathead. Worse, I just don’t seem to heal like I used to.

    Couple months ago I ruptured my transverse humeral ligament. This resulted in subluxation of the long head bicep tendon out of the humeral groove. It’s actually worse than that, and may or may not involve the Corachohumeral Ligament and/or the Superior Glenohumeral Ligament (as well as potential SLAP lesion). Laymen’s terms my shoulder is fucked up, and it’s taking forever to heal.

    I am currently in PT twice weekly. Have received one cortisone shot and will probably get one more. I also have my first consultation for platelet rich plasma injections next week, and will probably receive 2-3 shots in total.

    I am trying to put together a second phase rehabilitation plan incorporating HGH and AAS. My tentative plan is the following.


    • 4iu daily somatropin, alternating EOD SC belly injection and IM injection into injured shoulder. This would begin within a few days and continue maybe 180 days.

    Estimates right now have me able to do light exercise on the shoulder (i.e. normal pushups, assisted pullups) in approximately six weeks. Therefore, I would have 5-6 weeks of HGH usage with virtually no exercise.

    Once I am able to press in the 8-10 rep to failure range (hopefully 8-10 weeks from now), I would like to begin a deca heavy cycle to take advantage of the collagen synth properties of deca. I would like this cycle to contain a minimum amount of test to avoid the reduction in collagen synth. Note that if the preceding is nonsense broscience, please feel free to let me know.

    I am willing to have my cycle be suboptimal in hypertrophy in order to maximize the rehabilitation.

    Two schools of though:

    • 1st – minimize test relative to deca. Something like Deca at 400mg/week w/ test e at 250mg/week for 12 weeks. The thought here is that a TRT dose of test would be enough to offset the dreaded deca dick, but the deca:test ratio would be high enough to leverage the benefits of deca in the shoulder.

    • 2nd – forget the test (gasp!). Do something like Deca 400/wk with dbol at 20-30/day for 10 weeks. This is right out of Llewellyn’s 2009 (page 75), and counter to everything I know about gear (deca without test? 10 weeks of dbol?). That said, Llewellyn knows a lot more than I do.

    The 2nd cycle is more optimal in terms of deca: test ratio… but no test? Healing my shoulder is important, but I can go 10 weeks without a functional cock. And 10 weeks on dbol flies against all the conventional knowledge in terms of liver toxicity.

    Anyway, I realize this is very long but I am hoping one of you guys has some insight into what would be best. Medical professionals are totally unhelpful on this topic, and it is hard to find published research on point. So can any of you help an old meathead out?
     
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  14. HUGE.HULK

    HUGE.HULK Junior Member

    Re: Question for the experts/docs on use of HGH/AAS as part of ligament/tendon rehab

    10 weeks of dbol will fuck up your liver. I had the same problem and solved it with a 12 weeks of Test E 500 mg/week with 10 weeks of Deca 400 mg/week and no deca-dick. Then pct 4 weeks: clomid 100/100/50/50 and nolva 40/40/20/20.
     
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  15. scotch

    scotch Junior Member

    Re: Question for the experts/docs on use of HGH/AAS as part of ligament/tendon rehab

    Thanks for the reply.

    I think a cycle like that makes sense if I wait until I am near 100%. If the answer to my last question is yes (i.e. wait until 100%), I will probably do something very similar.

    Perhaps the first question I should have asked is this: Is the ligament and tendon healing/strengthening properties of deca sufficient to warrant inclusion in a rehabilitation program, even when I am unable to lift at 100%?

    Actually, the same goes for HGH? If I am basically limited to PT type exercises, is there any benefit in terms of healing time?

    Or, should I just be a normal person and do what my MD/PTs say. Follow the protocols they lay out (PT and PRP injections), and hold off the gear until I am 100%? Or maybe just the GH?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
  16. solo47

    solo47 Member

    Re: Question for the experts/docs on use of HGH/AAS as part of ligament/tendon rehab

    A lot depends on your age & natural rejuvenation, but hGH should speed healing no matter if you're lifting or not. For so-called collagen synthesis, I lean more toward EQ than Deca. It's said to be slower starting but protects the joints a lot longer (even if you are unable to lift at 100%).

    Solo
     
  17. Get Some

    Get Some Member

    Re: Question for the experts/docs on use of HGH/AAS as part of ligament/tendon rehab

    Agreed, EQ takes longer to kick in, but really helps recovery when it does. And it will also not shut you down as hard, much easier to recover from than Deca. That's just my personal experience with it.
     
  18. CubbieBlue

    CubbieBlue Member

    Re: Question for the experts/docs on use of HGH/AAS as part of ligament/tendon rehab

    Very interested in this as well. However, the medical evidence that any AAS use helps tendon healing is just not there yet.

    This study states that AAS use decreases MMP2, which is needed for tendon remodeling:
    Matrix metallopeptidase 2 activity in tendon regio... [Eur J Appl Physiol. 2008] - PubMed result

    This study uses nandrolone on rabbits and they found that the NO steroid group recovered better:
    The effect of local use of nandrolone decanoate on... [J Invest Surg. 2010] - PubMed result

    This study shows that nandrolone causes susceptibility to tendon rupture:
    Biomechanical responses of different rat tendons t... [Scand J Med Sci Sports. 2010] - PubMed result

    This study states it MAY be useful on human bioartificial in vitro tendons:
    Nandrolone decanoate and load increase remodeling ... [Am J Sports Med. 2004] - PubMed result

    So we've got 3 - NO and 1 - MAYBE as far as the utility of AAS, specifically nandrolone in spurring tendon recovery.

    I encourage someone out there to prove me wrong, because I want to heal just as bad as anyone out there. However, the more I dig the more it seems the only beneficial stuff is:
    rest
    some sort of growth hormone supplementation (whether it be HGH or a peptide)
    Vitamin C supplementation may be helpful

    Ice seems to bring relief but may retard the healing process.

    Hopefully we can have a good discussion about this that goes somewhere...
     
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  19. CubbieBlue

    CubbieBlue Member

  20. Millard Baker

    Millard Baker Member

    Re: Question for the experts/docs on use of HGH/AAS as part of ligament/tendon rehab

    Thanks for posting these studies.
     
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