Kryptocur: Completely prevent HPG suppression?

Discussion in 'Steroid Post Cycle Therapy and ASIH Treatment' started by Structure, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. Structure

    Structure Member

    I was reading a thread at the World Class Bodybuilding Forum about Kryptocur (see Kryptocur - World Class Bodybuilding Forum) and it got me thinking that it could be used to prevent HPG suppression instead of just for pct.

    During a cycle, the hypothalamus detects circulating T and E2 and secretes less (if any) GnRH. Subsequently, the pituitary is not stimulated to release gonadotropins (i.e. pituitary shutdown). And without gonadotropins, the testes shut down (no T, no spermatogenesis).

    In theory, one could keep the entire HPTA stimulated by using GnRH while on steroids. The idea would not be to get the testes to produce T in significant levels, but rather to prevent the HPTA from shutting down.

    GnRH injections aren't practical because of the very short half life. However, GnRH nasal spray (Kryptocur) addresses the problem of short half life: as directed, it is supposed to be used 3 times a day, one spray in each nostril. Each spray contains .2 mg of GnRH. That's 1.2 mg of GnRH per day. I have no idea how appropriate this dosage is for purposes other than inducing testicular descent in boys with cryptorchidism, which is what Kryptocur is actually indicated for.

    Kryptocur is legitimate; you can find plenty of studies on it validating its effectiveness (kryptocur - Google Scholar), although it is not available in the US (its used in Europe).

    The only form of HPG shutdown that would be possible while using GnRH would be hypothalamic shutdown. While I've heard of primary hypogonadism and secondary hypogonadism (hypogonadotropic hypogonadism) resulting after the cessation of steroid use, I've never heard of tertiary hypogonadism (hypothalamic hypogonadism) resulting from it. Any thoughts? Has anyone ever tried using Kryptocur on a cycle to prevent shutdown?
     
  2. Ziggajay

    Ziggajay Junior Member

    Extremely interesting thread. Thanks for posting.
     
  3. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine


    No, No, and No. The long term, chronic, or multiple use of GnRH agonists cause hypogonadism, prolonged hypogonadism. They can be used for a very limited use for hypogonadism. There is the following study, which has not been duplicated. What did this study actually show - not much! In fact, he was still infertile, requiring ICSI. There is also a similar study showing no effect on sex hormone levels. Anyone who uses a GnRH agonist more than a few times is asking for trouble!


    Nasal GnRH is available in the USA as nafarelin acetate - DailyMed: About DailyMed - and acts in a similar fashion as NON-nasal GnRH agonsits. IT IS AN EXTREMELY BAD IDEA WITH VERY SEVERE ADVERSE EFFECTS.


    Iwamoto H, Yoshida A, Suzuki H, Tanaka M, Watanabe N, Nakamura T. A man with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism successfully treated with nasal administration of the low-dose gonadotropin-releasing hormone analog buserelin. Fertil Steril 2009;92(3):1169 e1-3. Elsevier

    OBJECTIVE: To report a patient with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism of hypothalamic origin successfully treated with nasal administration of a low-dose gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogue.

    DESIGN: Case report.

    SETTING: A reproductive medical center.

    PATIENT(S): A 37-year-old man with anejaculation and infertility.

    INTERVENTION(S): Nasal administration of a low-dose GnRH analogue, buserelin.

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analysis and serum levels of gonadotropins and testosterone after nasal buserelin use.

    RESULT(S): The patient's laboratory examination showed low serum levels of gonadotropins and testosterone. After being diagnosed with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, 15 mug of buserelin acetate spray was administrated in each nostril three times a day (total: 90 mug/day). This therapy improved semen parameters and serum gonadotropin and testosterone levels. After approximately 1 year of this treatment, the patient's serum gonadotropin and testosterone levels remained in the normal range and semen analysis showed normozoospermia. The patient and his wife were treated with intracytoplasmic sperm injection, resulting in pregnancy.

    CONCLUSION(S): A low-dose buserelin nasal spray appears to be an effective and well-tolerated therapeutic option for patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism of hypothalamic origin.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  4. Structure

    Structure Member

    If Kryptocur was a GnRH agonist, you'd be right on. However, what you are talking about is not the same thing: Kryptocur is not a GnRH agonist.

    GnRH agonists have long been used to perform chemical castration by desensitizing GnRH receptors on the pituitary. As you have said, the initial effect is a short-lived increase in gonadotropins (LH and FSH) from the pituitary, followed by a whole lot of zero gonadotropins. The GnRH receptors are so overloaded by the GnRH agonist, that they cannot detect the normal GnRH signal coming from the hypothalamus for several months; they become desensitized.

    Kyrptocur's active ingredient is gonadorelin, not a gonadorelin analog. Gonadorelin is the same substance that is used in GnRH stimulation tests, and is chemically identical to the GnRH found in the body. It does not desensitize the pituitary any more than the GnRH coming from the hypothalamus.

    Contrast Kryptocur with Synarel and you will see what I mean. Both are nasal sprays. However, Synarel's active ingredient is nafarelin, which is a gonadorelin analog that is a known GnRH agonist. Kryptocur just contains gonadorelin. They are prescribed for entirely different purposes: Kryptocur is supposed to be used multiple times a day for an entire month to stimulate the HPG axis to correct undescended testes. Synarel is used to desensitize the pituitary and reduce LH and FSH in women that have endometriosis.

    On a side note: Pierre Herinne (Belgian cyclist) was caught using Kryptocur in conjunction with a steroid (and blamed his team's doctor).
     
  5. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine


    For all practical purposes, it is a GnRH agonist. [Is testosterone an agonist?] It stimulates the GnRH receptor - DailyMed: About DailyMed. This is 'bro talk. AND A VERY BAD IDEA. [On a side note: If this worked as you purport, where is the widespread use?]

    Leuprolide acetate in its various forms is used for the GnRH stimulation test. Although having grater potency that the natural GnRH, it also causes hypogonadism. Can you direct one to a study that shows its use as you believe?

    What is this supposed to mean? "On a side note: Pierre Herinne (Belgian cyclist) was caught using Kryptocur in conjunction with a steroid (and blamed his team's doctor)." It is no further proof that it works as you state.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  6. Structure

    Structure Member

    I can produce studies that show that Kryptocur results in HPG axis stimulation without the chemical castration that is associated with GnRH agonists.

    I can also direct you to another medication that works similarly: Factrel. It is a brand name of gonadorelin. It is used in conjunction with a battery-operated pump, due to gonadorelin's short half life. Women that have GnRH deficiency use it to get the HPG axis working so that they can get pregnant. Also, Factrel has been tested on people with Kallman's syndrome (congenital GnRH deficiency, or hypothalamic hypogonadism). Factrel (gonadorelin) does not cause hypogonadotropic hypogonadism as you argue, it stimulates the HPG axis by replacing the control signal normally generated by the hypothalamus. It does this because gonadorelin is chemically identical to GnRH. The pump-Factrel combination is branded Lutrepulse.

    This is not brologic.

    Would you like me to get the studies on Kryptocur (as used in curing cryptorchidism) and on Factrel (as used in curing GnRH deficiency)? Or does this not constitute the evidence that you are looking for? I just want clarification before I go through the work of getting citations and abstracts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  7. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine


    Please, cite/link the studies. And, now we are talking about a "pump" for use!!! What happened to the USE you purport!!! It is a fantasy. Did the cyclist have a pump? No wonder he got caught! LOL

    I am well aware of GnRH. It will NOT work as you state for prevention of AAS HPTA suppression except for a very short limited use as reported. You are in 'bro land.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  8. Structure

    Structure Member

    I'll get the studies. But you do hear yourself, right? First you tell me that the chemical itself causes chemical castration by its very nature. Now you are trying to say that it causes chemical castration when it is in nasal spray form but not when it is infused with a pump? What are you saying exactly?

    Here's what I am saying:
    • Gonadorelin is GnRH. This is the active ingredient in Factrel / Lutrepulse and Kryptocur.
    • It works the same if you get it into the bloodstream intranasally or through the pump.
    • It has a short half life. This is why it must be administered frequently.

    This is not brologic.

    However, trying to tell me that the very same active causes hypogonadism when administered intranasally but cures hypogonadism when injected, despite achieving similar serum values --- that's brologic. You do realize that it is the same chemical, right? And you also realize that you can control the dose in either preparation?

    I'm just trying to find common ground with you so that we can get to the bottom of this for everyone's benefit.
     
  9. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine


    Provide the STUDIES. And, this is 'bro logic. You are in a fantasy world where you imagine to duplicate all of the body's normal physiology while taking AAS. The use of GnRH agonists clinically, NOT imaginary, for more than a short course produces hypogonadism. YOU ARE NOW TALKING ABOUT A PUMP OR FREQUENT INTRANASAL USE. IT WILL NOT WORK FOR YOUR OP USE.

    I will wait for your studies!!! [BTW: Have you even begun to consider how AAS suppress the HPTA? There is an action directly on the pituitary. What will your treatment do for this?]

    PRODUCE THE STUDIES.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  10. Structure

    Structure Member

    I'll get the studies, just keep your pants on. A few points first:

    You do realize that I've been talking about frequent intranasal use the entire time, right? And you also realize that I'm not talking about the general category of GnRH agonists, I'm talking about the very specific compound called gonadorelin, which is equivalent to the body's GnRH, right?

    Back to the studies --- I intend to show the following:
    • Gonadorelin is the same as the GnRH that is released from the hypothalamus.
    • Kryptocur and Lutrepulse both use the same active: gonadorelin.
    • Studies show that gonadorelin (in physiologically appropriate doses) stimulates the HPG axis, and can therefore used to make women fertile, treat hypothalamic hypogonadism, and treat cryptorchidism.

    Do you want me to prove anything else, or will this be sufficient to help return you to the land of people who don't type in all-caps? Let me know now, before I start my search; I want to know everything that I need to prove so that I only have to do the search once.

    My point here the entire time has been that if you use GnRH is physiologically appropriate doses, you can keep the HPG axis stimulated. What you are talking about is different: it is the desensitization of GnRH receptors through overstimulation by GnRH agonists.
     
  11. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine


    Why are you wasting time? Produce the studies!!! And why are you repeating yourself? AND READ YOUR OP. Provide a single study (ONE) that shows the continued production of T (OR LH/FSH) with the use of ANY GnRH mode (agonist or whatever) while taking AAS. Or is all you have IS the use of GnRH for known uses???


    Does the BOLD and SIZE help your understanding? In other words, I can read the regular font, etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  12. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    Produce the studies for whatever you have. And, then show how they will translate to your OP. I look forward to reading how the use of GnRH in a female (by pump no less) relates to the OP! Recall, this is for use while taking AAS. Further, it will be even more interesting to read how you plan on mimicking the exact physiological GnRH pulse generator. And, it will still NOT work.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  13. Structure

    Structure Member

    LOL. Nice coping skills, Scally. [:eek:)]

    If I had a study that showed that using Kryptocur while on cycle of steroids still kept the HPG axis properly stimulated, then I wouldn't be calling it a theory, nor would I be asking any questions, because the facts would already be established!

    The hypothesis part of this discussion is whether or not Kryptocur can be used to prevent shutdown during a cycle of steroids. The "knowns" that I'm basing my hypothesis on are the items I've listed in my previous post. I'll list them again here:
    It seems that throughout this post, you've disputed these points. Specifically, you've tried to tell me that my hypothesis is flawed because Kryptocur will cause hypogonadism:

    And as I've already pointed out, you also seemed to imply that the means employed to get the chemical into the blood stream affect the outcome:

    So have you changed your mind? Are you now admitting that regular, physiologically appropriate doses of gonadorelin can be used to keep the HPG axis stimulated? Please say so, and spare me from having to dig up the studies that you know already exist! We both know that it is not going to be hard to prove this much.

    Once you do that much, we can get back to square one, where this discussion should have started to begin with: given that regular, physiologically appropriate doses of gonadorelin (i.e. Kryptocur) can be used to keep the HPG axis stimulated, I theorize that it could be used to keep the entire HPG axis stimulated during a cycle of steroids, completely preventing HPG suppression.

    Let me know if you and I are now on the same page, or if you still want me to retrieve the studies.

    And by the way, no matter how large or obnoxious you make your font, it doesn't make your argument any more sound ;) Let's pretend we know how to have a scientific discussion, and try to keep our panties from bunching up, shall we?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  14. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine


    Produce the studies. How many times do I need to post. There is nothing you have posted that would lead to the idea/theory that it is possible to use GnRH during AAS administration that will prevent HPTA suppression. You have yet to address the additional part for pituitary suppression (or T production). It will NOT work except in your mind. If this worked even slightly, it would be used by BB. I have not changed my mind, but you are going off-topic .IT WILL NOT WORK FOR ALL OF THE REASONS STATED. YOUR THEORY IS WORTHLESS. Produce the studies. Produce ONE study. In this manner, I will show your flawed logic/theory.


    Now you have gone and stepped into the abyss. There was a very small chance (very small) to provide support for mimicking the GnRH pulse generator, but now you have completely disregarded the HPTA feedback loop at the pituitary level.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  15. Structure

    Structure Member

    Work with me here, Scally. I'll get the studies as soon as I know what it is that you'd like me to prove. I've made it clear what part is theory (the part that relates to steroid use) and what part is fact (the part that relates to how gonadorelin works), but I'm no closer to understanding what you want me to show with the studies, because I'm not clear on whether or not you agree with what I'm calling "fact".

    Let's make this simple. Answer yes or no to the following:

    • Would you like me to produce a study showing that gonadorelin is the same as the GnRH that is released from the hypothalamus?
    • Would you like me to produce a study showing that Kryptocur and Lutrepulse both use the same active: gonadorelin?
    • Would you like me to produce a study showing that gonadorelin (in physiologically appropriate doses) stimulates the HPG axis, and can therefore used to make women fertile, treat hypothalamic hypogonadism, and treat cryptorchidism?
    • And most importantly of all: do you still think that gonadorelin, even in regular, physiologically appropriate doses, unavoidably results in hypogonadism?

    Any thing else you'd like me to dig up?

    Once we are on the same page, we can actually start the discussion --- specifically, what will happen when you bring steroids into the mix (e.g. the pituitary issues you are bringing up, how much T one expects to generate from the Kryptocur, etc.).
     
  16. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    Produce any study you think supports your theory. BTW: Producing anything that shows Kryptocur is the same as GnRH is meaningless. I have already posted/agreed they are the same. This does NOT support your theory. [While you are at it, you might want to research the GnRH pulse generator and pituitary feedback.]

     
  17. Structure

    Structure Member

    Conspicuously, you didn't answer any of my questions. I'm going to assume that no, you don't need to any of those studies, because you have in fact changed your mind. Thus, I'll fill in the answers for you:

    • Would you like me to produce a study showing that gonadorelin is the same as the GnRH that is released from the hypothalamus? No.
    • Would you like me to produce a study showing that Kryptocur and Lutrepulse both use the same active: gonadorelin? No.
    • Would you like me to produce a study showing that gonadorelin (in physiologically appropriate doses) stimulates the HPG axis, and can therefore used to make women fertile, treat hypothalamic hypogonadism, and treat cryptorchidism? No.
    • And most importantly of all: do you still think that gonadorelin, even in regular, physiologically appropriate doses, unavoidably results in hypogonadism? No. I'd rather not address this though, especially since I was so "colorful" in my assertions that it would cause hypogonadism.

    Any thing else you'd like me to dig up? No. We're on the same page now. I'd rather get on with the discussion about your hypothesis now.

    OK, moving on then.

    So now that we're on the same page, you're bringing up that although Kyrptocur won't induce hypogonadism when used as directed, when you bring steroids into the mix, there will still be feedback at the pituitary, and it will still shut down. What makes you think that the pituitary won't still produce LH and FSH as a result of the GnRH, despite the high T?
     
  18. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    What does what I think about GnRH (as Kryptocur or otherwise) have to do with your theory? Produce ANY study that you believe supports your theory. ANY STUDY. Also, even though Kryptocur is the same as GnRH, this does NOT support your theory. Provide evidence that it supports your theory. You are trying in desperation to change the OP topic to GnRH induced hypogonadism. GnRH induced hypogonadism is a well documented effect. As for GnRH itself, I will wait for your studies. The reply will quickly reveal the use of GnRH fantasy. This is your thread! Produce (or SHUT UP) ANY study that you believe supports your theory. ANY STUDY.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  20. Structure

    Structure Member

    Nice.

    Here's a recap of the thread, post by post:
    • Post 1: I submit my theory.
    • Post 2: Someone expresses interest.
    • Post 3: You say it won't work because Kryptocur is a GnRH agonist and thus will cause hypogonadism.
    • Post 4: I clarify that you are wrong because Kryptocur is not a GnRH agonist, rather it is GnRH. I contrast the two.
    • Post 5: You insist there's no difference between GnRH and a GnRH agonist.
    • Post 6: I offer to produce studies that show that there is a difference between GnRH and a GnRH agonist; specifically that GnRH doesn't cause hypogonadism but a GnRH agonist will. I offer more examples to illustrate.
    • Post 7: You start focusing on the delivery mechanism, insinuating that the reason GnRH doesn't cause suppression in Lutrepulse is someohow related to the fact that it is delivered by a pump.
    • Post 8: I clarify that the pump / nasal spray aspect does not change how gonadorelin works once it is in plasma.
    • Post 9: You insist that gonadorelin will still cause hypogonadism, and continue to focus on the delivery system (as though it was somehow relevant).
    • Post 10:I again disagree, and make it explicit what I intend to show in the studies, which is basically that gonadorelin works just like GnRH because it is GnRH, and won't cause hypogonadism. Sensing that I'm about to get studies to prove something obvious, I ask you if proving this will satisfy you.
    • Post 11: You now say that you want to see studies that show that using Kryptocur will not suppress the HPG axis while on steroids. You're now trying to play down the argument of whether or not gonadorelin will cause hypogonadism, probably because you realize that you're wrong and you've made a fool of yourself.
    • Post 12: You post again, this time saying that showing gonadorelin can be used without causing hypogonadism is irrelevant with respect to the original post.
    • Post 13: I respond to your request for proof that Kryptocur will not suppress the HPG axis while on steroids telling you that this is purely theory, and try to figure out why you're now ignoring whether or not using gonadorelin causes hypogonadism. I ask for clarification of your stance on this.
    • Post 14: You ignore my request for clarification on whether or not gonadorelin use unavoidably results in hypogonadism. You again ask for studies showing that Kryptocur will prevent suppression while on steroids, even though I just told you that this is just a theory. You bring up pituitary suppression to further avoid having to address whether or not gonadorelin use unavoidably results in hypogonadism.
    • Post 15: I explicitly ask you again, this time in yes or no format, whether or not using gonadorelin has to result in hypogonadism, and promise to address the theory once we're on the same page about the basics.
    • Post 16: You ignore my questions again, trying to avoid addressing the elephant in the room: that you've made a fool of yourself, and you know it. You try to skirt the issue by now admitting (for the first time) that gonadorelin and GnRH are the same thing, but have nothing to say about all the times you claimed using it would unavoidably end in hypogonadism.
    • Post 17: I point out that you've made a fool of yourself, and decide to move on. I ask for clarification regarding your position on T suppressing the pituitary despite GnRH stimulation.
    • Post 18: You again ask for studies showing that Kryptocur will prevent suppression while on steroids, even though I've already told you that it is just a theory. You insinuate that it is me (and not you) that is afraid of looking foolish.

    Scally, for someone as accomplished and as educated as you, you really squirm when trying to avoid having to admit you were wrong. Its just plain disgraceful. I'm actually embarrassed for you.

    Its plainly obvious to anyone reading this thread that you first tried to say that my theory wouldn't work because using Kryptocur would result in hypogonadism. When I tried to explain to you that it wouldn't, you just got more and more childish.

    I'm still interested in discussing this theory (we've barely begun). I really don't care at this point whether or not you are capable of admitting that using GnRH doesn't have to result in hypogonadism; its obvious from your behavior that you are aware that this is true. I'll still provide you the studies that show that Kryptocur (and gonadorelin in genral) work to stimulate the HPG axis --- if you need to see them, I'll provide them for you.

    Now, are you interested in actually contributing to the discussion? C'mon scally, show some self-respect.