Maybe time to return to the pin

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by zkt, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. zkt

    zkt Member

    and I hate the pin! But with 10 gr androgel/d my TT came back <250. Thought maybe I missed some doses so religiously applied the gel for two weeks to make sure the globulins were saturated and retested. Results will be back tomorrow.
    Libido has ben in the tank for at least a month and that could be explained by numerous business problems but sure wouldnt account for such low TT at the max TD dose.
    Maybe its time to revisit the steroid insensitivity issue. I definitely have some corticosteroid resistance likely due to prolonged use.
     
  2. LW64

    LW64 Member

    I didn't realize you were off it. The last time I saw you mention gels was when you tried them SL.:eek:
     
  3. jonkobeck

    jonkobeck Member

    Since going off Pellets and Gels and on twice weekly shots I feel much better and my E2 is the best its ever been
     
  4. zkt

    zkt Member

    I have been on gel for at least 3 years now. It certainly doesnt have the punch of a good shot of cyp or enanthanate. But doesnt have the letdown either,
    Anyway the lab came back ~ 600. Not going to do better from this source. lol.
    Not by conventinal methods anyway.;)
    I cant help but suspct that my lack of drive-energy-libido- lust for life isnt related to my longstanding use of corticosteriods. But if there is one thing that is important its breathing. And when it involves asthma GC is the best treatment..
    All you bitches gonna get old too and have to deal with shit like this.
    Ha fuckin ha
    :eek:
     
  5. cvictorg

    cvictorg Member

    How old are you anyway?
     
  6. ChillBill

    ChillBill Member

    :ditto:
     
  7. zkt

    zkt Member

    15 going on 65.
    TT came back ~600. Sticking with the gel for a while.
    One more thing and I`ll stop whining and bitchin:
    I can increase the dose of GC and greatly improve the pulmonary function to the point where I can do the work I`ve always done; namely construction, real work.
    But I`m already on 8mg medrol/d. Thats about 25% greater than the normal high end of the range. Ive been on this dose for ~7 years. As some of you know sustained high GC levels have consequences. One of the consequences is insensitivity to GC. I`ve already experienced most of them excluding T2D.
    So here I am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.
    Increase the dose and function better now and suffer more down the road or ride it out for god knows how long and hope GC sensetivity improves. BTW, 7 years ago on 8mg medrol/d I could hang with most anyone working with me, now on bad days I`m lucky to climb a ladder.
    In case one of the bright docs is thinking of chiming in re the progress of COPD, I am talking bronchial spasm, primarily exercise induced.
    Bitch, bitch, bitch...
     
  8. keriheat

    keriheat Member

    The older you get,,, the shorter the time span for change!! Kinda like dog years. :)

    It might only be 1 or 2 years instead of the 7 that you have referred to.

    Stay on top of it and you will be talking about how to change your protocol when you are 30 going on 85. Ha
     
  9. MANWHORE

    MANWHORE Member

    I am 43 and will kick the shit..
    And I mean Kick the fuckin shit
    Out of any younger person, at my job .. And older one..

    How did I make it, to 43 :confused:

    This Test is making me Like
    Pussy way, too much ...
    I see pussy when I look, at women.. Only pussy..

    I gotta stop giving out my number, on POF too..
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  10. keriheat

    keriheat Member

    Tack 20 -- 25 years onto your bad self and you'll see what I'm talk'n 'bout.

    You hit the big 65 and things can go down hill in a hurry, if your not diligent. :)
     
  11. BBC3

    BBC3 Member

    Please expound... Im barely over 40 and I dont like the way THINGS are.. ALSO, I would think that @65yrs old, "things" are going downhill in a hurry regardless of ANYTHING.. :eek: LOL Sorry and not being a buzzkill. I am really just trying to discern what you are referring precisely.. You are scaring me...[:eek:)];)


     
  12. BBC3

    BBC3 Member

    Yes, I suspect you will. Shit, I only use creams and gels as a "pick me up" on "special days", and on top of my IM TRT routine.. LOL

    One point I am interjecting is the whole receptor regulation thing. I am starting to wonder myself. I consider myself pretty damn shutdown, and really wonder at this point if I could ever stop. Then I THINK I KNOW - why would I want to live at a constant genetically age inclined deficiency? But the point is that I really think it is taking me more IM CYP to get the same results from past.?? Now, it may very well be some changes in my daily routine, diet, or whatever - but I JUST DONT KNOW.. I have also been ignoring any dedication to protocol application. Usually, I guess I wait a week to ten days and then pin whatever my psyche tells me to at the time. This could range from 150 to 400mgs these days. I will expound in a thread I am getting ready to start which is related...:)

     
  13. tendency

    tendency Member

    wondered this too .. when i was taking T gel for 4 yrs. i had to slowly keep upping the dose to get the same 'feel'. been on shots for a year so far and have not had to up the dose when IM'ing T .. so far.
     
  14. keriheat

    keriheat Member

    PHYSICALLY: At 40 to 45 years of age, I was working everyday, some days 10 hour days. At 60 years of age I started looking at the clock at 3 in the afternoon, just totally wore out just trying to make it through the day. At 64 I just couldn't gather enough energy to work 8 hours. I had some health issues and a little overweight, but not obese. I will be 72 in June. If I can work 3 to 4 hours to cut the grass or work on the tractor or clean the gutters, It now takes me 2 days to recover. Achy muscles, spongy legs. stiffness,,, Every year now it takes just a little longer to get the engine runin' to do what I need to do. No...I'm no where near a wheelchair ride, but I can tell you that in hindsight the progression of slowing down is very vivid in my mind...from 40 to 65 years of age. I just never gave a thought to not being able to do whatever I wanted to do. The will may be there but physically age takes over.

    You learn to adjust, do what you can do, and don't beat yourself up over it. I have learned to enjoy every day, but it IS at a slower pace. I'm still blessed, haven't been in a hospital overnight since 2004 (stent). God has been good to me!
     
  15. zkt

    zkt Member

    You hit the nail on the head: work one day and rest for two!
    But there is something to the decreasing results over time with the same dose of androgens and corticosteriods. I initially put it down to receptor downregulation, but Dr. Scally talked me out of it. Since that time, a few years ago, I have studied receptor activity in general in much more detail.
    The same decreased activity applies to corticosteroids and has been studied much more closely. The effect isnt only due to receptor D/R but due to interference with some of the intercellular transformations that take place in antiinflammatory protein synthesis, at least as far as GC activity goes. There are studies to be found if anyone wants to study this topic. I`m sure it would be worth the time and effort.
     
  16. biceps72

    biceps72 Member

    I mostly agree (diligent is key!) No matter how I word this it will likely come off as pretentious and plain ole bragging, " So I apologize to all in advance'

    I am turning 64 (this week Nov 2013), can flat dumbell press 100s or 110s in each hand for sets of 10.

    I still workout 5 days a week, have a 30 year old "friend that I can keep more than happy :D. I feel I owe most this to good genetics, good habits, a fairly good diet. intelligent physical training and TRT (androgel for the last 8 years)


    I know aging is eventually a death sentence so I am just trying to live a high quality life as long as I can. TRT has greatly helped me do just that!
     
  17. BBC3

    BBC3 Member

    Well, I have two thoughts regarding "downregulation". I am wondering if WHATEVER THIS ISSUE IS which we are perceiving (OR THINK WE ARE) can be reversed by Physical Training. You know. The SAME type concept where we PRACTICE by FORCING our bodies to go beyond their CURRENT CAPACITY for brief periods, and in anticipation of GETTING BETTER AT IT FOR ANOTHER TIME..? In short, are we just happy with STATUS QUO and wanting more from the testosterone, and not the work REQUIRED to NEED IT.. Its not like anyone is complaining that their lives are degrading - with the exception of the complete removal of the steroid. SO I would call the interpretation of "Downregulation" in our cases as NORMAL Condition inconjunction with NORMAL AGING??

    Second, and thinking of the Body Builders that complaining that "steroids are not longer working" (and I don't quite recall if there was ever any context of steroids other than testosterone with regard to this). I wonder in that case if the deficiency is not always based on a required concomitant(I love that word:D) principle of human metabolic biology. Meaning, this may even apply to my first set above. But, are the BBs complaining of steroids really just limited by some other human facet like thyroid, insulin, converting enzymes, or even one's digestive tract's ability to uptake calories??. Cause you can have all the steroids you want, but if you dont have the other ingredients to put in the furnace - IT AINT HAPPENING... In short, you can park all the T molecules in proximity to a cell that you want, but if there is not enough insulin, t3, or whatever - They are not required.

    There is a whole other condition which I am interesting in considering, or seeing science consider that is. And that is if my assumption that the body is a DEMAND BASED SYSTEM is Correct. But - What is the REAL value of "FORCE FEEDING" on this molecular level. Clearly, a life can be saved when force fed food/calories in some circumstances, and even when it did not THINK it wanted it... So what are the REAL IMPLICATIONS to FORCING EXCESS into circulation - both positive and well as potentially negative...:

    1) DOES placing an abundance of T into circulation INCREASE the odds that it will be metabolized and processed by a cell?
    2) WHAT does this do to BLOOD POPULATION? Surely the blood can only hold so much of this and that. This would be one of my KEYS to determining actual hormonal BURN RATES - IF/// EVERYTHING// Could be properly qualified in PRESENCE, PURPOSE, and SUM EFFECT.
    3) In the Metabolic "force feed" scenario, What is the RESULT on other Principle SUPPLIERS (thyroid, pancreas, etc..)?? Does extra circulating T trigger more Thyroid hormone within its-self.?? And by general receptor based CNS brain interpreted signaling? On the flip side, does that extra T INTERFERE with adding that thyroid into circulation?
    4) What are the real negatives ON THE ELIMINATION SIDE of the equation.? How much unused testosterone or estradiol can a liver and kidneys PROCESS OUT to clear the blood? If the blood is not cleared, the DOES IT FORCE hormones and other to stay at the receptor too long and become cannibalized into a monster/"poison"..?
    5) Pertaining to Diet. What about Blood fat? Both endogenous, and externally eaten? How is converts. What blood profiles with regard to fats, proteins, and carbs allow for best metabolic processing overall.
    6) Finally, there is something to be said for the CNS in these activities as well. There is no primary "Meter at the brain, balls, or pancreas" SENSING hormone levels and deciding AT THAT SPECIFIC ORGAN to turn on the flow. ITS ALL ABOUT TISSUE RECEPTORS THROUGHOUT THE BODY, and then SENDING SIGNALS BACK TO THE BRAIN - Which interprets and the directs back via CNS. ITS ALL CNS...!!! So how about electrolytes, sodium channels, potassium, and the iron, zinc, copper, and magensium that empower this massive DC battery with built-in AC Inverter.

    ** This all leading up to the ultimate issue with LIFE EXTENSION. Which is CIRCULATION OF O2 for the fire to burn. MOST IMPORTANTLY EMPHASIZING Micro-capillary activity as the key indicator and FIRST TO GO/REPORT.. If the cells don't get the AIR (O2), PETROL (calories & Hormones), & SPARK (Electric signal BOTH COMMUNICATION AND FIRE) - Then the cell must become at least corrupted and/or DIE. So- How do we keep our blood vessel tissues from aging?!?!? A good start is FORCING them open with increased Blood Pressure due to INCREASED WORK LOAD. And NOT REFERRING to Increased BP do the lessened work load as SHRINKING AND HARDENING[:eek:)]:rolleyes:. There is something to be said for the argument as to whether a car engine is hurt more by not being used, or via INTERMITTENT USE only. But the bottom line is that whether Running Regularly or NOT - It will age and fail without proper MAINTENANCE. The end point of this paragraph being - WHAT KIND OF MOTOR OIL DUE YOU USE, and HOW WELL DOES THE FILTER WORK. Is there something to be said for FISH OILS?? Olive Oils? CoQ-10? And the PREVENTION of OXIDIZATION (Rust). Then what does it say about MODERATION as PERHAPS not only KEY TO LONGEVITY. But PERHAPS even KEY TO OPTIMIZATION/MAXIMIZATION at any time in life.

    !!! There is more to be thought, said, and DONE regarding the ISSUE of CNS as pertaining to SIGNALING/COMMUNICATION vs. ELECTRICAL CAPACITY FOR FIRE/PROCESSING.. Patent Pending....!;)

    ** And DON'T interpret my delivery of "micro-capillary" action/health as intended to simply be SOMETHING ON THE SURFACE. There are PERIMETERS WITHIN PERIMETERS WITHIN PERIMETERS. Sure, you can detect the skin coming back to life when you begin a heavy aerobic routine after much time off. Your thighs can itch and and your scalp can burn. But consider the PERIMETERS of the PANCREAS, KIDNEYS, LIVER, and BRAIN. Think in SPHERICAL FORM and THREE DIMENSIONS. Then think of how each and every facet of a kidney MUST BE a "PERIMETER TYPE ACTIVITY" bloodwise. Then think of the CELL. The SAFETY POSSIBLY being that in SPHERICAL TERMS, there is "SAFETY, PROTECTION, or INHERENT FORTITUDE" to this DESIGN. SPHERICAL IS the KEY To the UNIVERSE as Universally applied to us even as we are created by such.

    NOW YOU ARE IN THE FOURTH DIMENSION...!;):D

    Welcome....!:)

     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  18. PIP427

    PIP427 Member

    Would you mind expanding a bit on your history with AAS? My interest is in the roads you have traveled? If you had the opportunity to do it all over again how would you go about it now? (I am just over 40 myself) I feel your story and insight could help others like myself who are considering AAS, getting back in or embarking on their first cycle. There are also many out there that do not know the meaning of moderation. And again your story may help with this lesson. I had to learn the hard way myself, on many, many occasions.! (Post script... this is what happens when you tell your kids NO all their life, instead of letting them learn a few of the small lessons on their own, and sitting them down and taking the time to share your insight and wisdom on the big ones)
     
  19. keriheat

    keriheat Member

    You might want to take a look at this. Its a quote from a Research that 'cvictorg' posted on here.

    A practical guide to male hypogonadism in the primary care setting
    .
    .
     
  20. keriheat

    keriheat Member

    I compliment you on your discipline. You should be proud, but I believe you are an exception.

    My father was very active in the Senior Olympics for 20 years and set several national records. The last time he ran in the Olympics he was 92 years old...the next year he was dead. He had a dizzy spell, fell and hit his head and never got up. Go figure!