My HPTA restart, based on Dr Scally informations

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by manu25th, Feb 2, 2014.

  1. manu25th

    manu25th Junior Member

    Hi everybody, I'm a BB from europe, 28 yo ... after 2 years of aas abuse, I decided to do a restart, and being naturally for a moment, or for the rest of my life. I did a blast and cruse, and started to think about staying on trt, but had difficulties to manage oestradiol. Whats more, in europe, we don't have good docs for trt, and it's illegal to possess test without a script .... so not the best solution for me ....

    Last test shoot was in december.
    I started my first hcg shoot on december 27, when my TT was 200 ( exogenous test )
    2500ui e2d, with 100 mg clomid and 20 mg nolvadex ed.
    I know the clomid may be useless now because hcg is suppressive ...
    On january 6, my TT was 299 ( so my ledigs cells are now producing test, because at that moment I had about 100ng/dl due to the last cyp shot ).

    on january 13, my was TT was 375 ng/dl

    On january 17 my TT was 299 .... so i did a course of 5 x 5000ui hcg total, with 5000 ui eod.
    on january 28 after 3 hcg shoots, my TT was 406.
    I did then 2 more hcg shoots.

    Tomorrow I will have a new lab.
    My question now is : are my balls enough fonctional ? because 406 ng is considered in the range, but in the low range ....
    So I hesitate to continue hcg to stimulate the leydig cells , and stopping hcg when TT will be 500 or 600 +, or stopping hcg and taking just serms for a few weeks.
    Do I risk a crash now ?

    thanks a lot, Manu
     
    Michael Scally MD likes this.
  2. Cyberwolf

    Cyberwolf Junior Member

    Do you have lh results? Maybe you are primary ? I think you must go back on trt.
     
  3. manu25th

    manu25th Junior Member

    no I didn't test LH because I m using hcg so LH will be low

    with a TT of 406, after 3 x 5000 ui hcg, what will be my TT without hcg, if we admit my LH will be on range ?
     
  4. Cyberwolf

    Cyberwolf Junior Member

    No lh wouldn't be low because clomid raise it. Will was better to know your lh before start the therapy and during. Your TT is low maybe your testicles don't response in lh,You can see my results with the same protocol. http://thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-health-forum/dr-scally-protocol-results-134340295.html
     
  5. manu25th

    manu25th Junior Member

    Ok I got my labs results ....
    Not the best ...

    Lh : 14,3 mUI/ml
    TT : 330
    E2 : 35

    My LH is high, so my pituitary is good, but my leydig cells are not sensible to my Lh....

    What can I do ? I continue hcg ?
     
  6. MR10X

    MR10X Member

    Iv'e used Dr Scally's system and had great sucess with it,but i only do 8 week cycles so im not shut down for a long time.My last cycle was 12 weeks though and i used hcg before clomid and nolvadex and recoved fine with bloodwork to confirm it. I was 64 at the time and my levels came back to 502 when i was tested 1 month after finishing pct.I seems to me if you were shut down for a long period of time like a year or more you would need to use HCG for a while,maby even a couple of months before starting Clomid and Nolvadex so your balls will be functioning good.Not sure Clomid or Nolvacex would be effective while usin HCG that long because it shuts your HPTA System down also.My system came back with no HCG after 8 week cycles with no problem.
     
  7. MR10X

    MR10X Member

    I dont think HCG would be the answer because it will just surpress your LH more.Also HCG will make you produce more estrogen which will further surpress you.I would continue clomid and nolvadex longer,it will stimulate your own LH . Give it more time to work.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014
  8. Cyberwolf

    Cyberwolf Junior Member

    These labs confirm that you are primary hypo and this therapy are not for you.
     
  9. manu25th

    manu25th Junior Member

    Yes I m primary hypo due to abuse ....
    If I continue hcg, I dont think that my LH will be a problem, because I take hcg now and with clomid and nolva, my LH is super high.
    I just need to wake up my leydig cells
     
  10. MR10X

    MR10X Member

    I'm not positive but i think HCG will show up as LH in bloodwork....and HCG is suppressive to your HPTA....
     
  11. MR10X

    MR10X Member

    NV: What is used for restoring the hormonal axis?
    MS: A combination of three drugs. The individual use of hcg, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen is well-known, well-accepted, and well-tested standards of care treatments in peer-reviewed medical literature for diagnostic testing for underlying pathology of hypogonadism. The HPTA protocol uses the medications human chorionic gonadotropin, clomiphene citrate, and tamoxifen.
    The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of HCG. HCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of the testes and secondly decreases the production and level of gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the HCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.
    This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from HCG. Demonstration of the HPTA functionality is an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed, HCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an HCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure. In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is to determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with HCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully in the first half, there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.
    The second phase of the HPTA protocol, clomiphene and tamoxifen, examines the ability of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis to respond to stimulation by producing LH levels within the normal reference range. The clomiphene citrate challenge differentiates secondary hypogonadism. Clomiphene is an antiestrogen, which decreases the estrogen effect in the body. It has a dual effect by stimulating the hypothalamic pituitary area and it has an antiestrogenic effect, so that it decreases the effect of estrogen in the body. Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, it decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor bind*ing sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary, allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administering them together produces an elevation of LH and secondar*ily gonadal sex hormones. The administration of clomiphene leads to an appropriate rise in the levels of LH, suggesting that the negative feedback control on the hypothalamus is intact and that the storage and release of gonadotropins by the pituitary is normal. If there was a successful stimulation of testicular T levels by HCG, but an inadequate or no response in LH pro*duction, then the patient has hypogonadotropic, secondary, hypogonadism.
    In the simplest terms, the second half of the protocol is to deter*mine hypothalamo-pituitary production and reserve with clomiphene and tamoxifen. The physiological type of hypogonadism—hypogonadotropic or secondary—is characterized by abnormal low or low normal gonadotropin (LH) production in response to clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. In the functional type of hypogonadism, the ability to stimulate the HPTA to pro*duce LH and T levels within the normal reference range occurs.
    There is a dearth of good studies in anabolic steroids, both while you are taking them and after you stop them, I think this is going to be something that we are going to need to look at in the future. In fact, we are going to plan on looking at it in our proposed clinical studies that we have with our company for the prevention of anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism.
    Dr Scally’s book “Anabolic Steroids – A Question of Muscle: Human Subject Abuses in Anabolic Steroid Research” is available on Amazon.com
     
  12. manu25th

    manu25th Junior Member

    thanks for the article :)
    with a TT > 300 ( and 406 last time ) I assume my testes are able to make testosterone ?
    To my mind, they are able to, but they don't make enough :/
    So is there a way to render testis more sensitive to LH ?
     
  13. manu25th

    manu25th Junior Member

    Well I searched on the web, and it seems that FSH increase lh sensitivity, so I think I should look for hmg .....
    It seems that prolactin would do the same thing but I want to be able to perform in the bed lol
     
  14. manu25th

    manu25th Junior Member

    just saw an anti ageing doc today .... He wants me to stop serms, and wait 2 weeks, then have a bloodwork ...
    I know that my test will be low ... and without serms lh and fsh will be lower than now.
    My bloodwork will be : cortisol 8 am, cortisol 4 pm, dhea, shbgn, free test, hdl, ldl, cholesterol total.
    And he will see if I need hcg clomid hmg etc .... ( but I know that I will need them .... )
     
  15. BababooeyHTJ

    BababooeyHTJ Member

    Damn, that is a lot of gear for a restart, imo. My total test went from around 200 to just short of 600 with far less clomid, no nova, and no hcg. Sadly, I can't tolerate much clomid or I would have just stuck with that.

    I also keep reading that less can be more in the case of hcg. My doc has me on 200ui eod with 12.5mg of clomid eod. Just started that, can't comment with labs just yet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
  16. manu25th

    manu25th Junior Member

    BababooeyHTJ you are lucky, your testicles respond well to the LH
    You took your hcg during your cycle/trt ? or during pct ? because in my case, I think that with 200 ui hcg my testes response will be close to nothing. And if you can't stand the side effects of clomid, I would just use nolva instead

    I did the bloodwork this morning, I will have to wait 8 days for the results for free testosterone, shbg, DHEAs and igf.
    I will have liver fonction, fsh, Lh, cortisol this afternoon. This afternoon they will test my cortisol a second time.

    Now I will wait for a script for hmg and hcg, but it will take long time.

    I don't want to stay with no libido, loss of muscle mass, and lethargy at the gym, so I will take andriol, 160 mg/day. You assimilate less than 10% of test, the levels are elevated for 2 hours, and then return to noting less than 12 hours after.
    In the notice it's written that it doesnt affect Lh and FSH production in EUGONADAL men. I'm hypogonadal, but with my LH very high ( I didnt test for FSH last time, but I suppose FSH is good too ), I don't think andriol will be harsh, nor my pituitary won't respond to clomid nolva next time.

    So my idea is to take andriol for having a testosterone support, and during andriol therapy taking hmg and hcg to wake up my leydig cells, and then stopping andriol and return to clomid nolva.
    Andriol has a 12 hours life, so I will test my TT levels 24 hours the last caps, my test will be low, and I will have 2500 ui hcg, then retest TT the day after.
    If my TT is good, that will means that my testes are now back :)

    any ideas ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  17. weekend

    weekend Member

    you should use 500 IU hcg eod and 25 mg clomid EOD for 3 months. also add aromasin at 12.5 eod. no andriol.

    adding hMG is a good idea as well.