Natural competitive BB needs help with first cycle!

Discussion in 'Steroid Forum' started by Meathead27, Jul 23, 2008.

  1. Meathead27

    Meathead27 Member

    (I posted this in another part of the forum but another member said id get more responses here)

    Im currently 21 and ive been training since I was 13. Although I didnt exactly start out knowing what I do today I would like to say that ive been bodybuilding "seriously" for the past 4 years and ive been competing for the last two. Im a meso/endo mix(predominantly meso) and I have an incredible build for a natural guy. Im currently 5'7 187 pounds (204 last offseason, 170 comp weight) and Im currently around 10-11% bodyfat. I train 10 days on 1 day off. I train one bodypart per day and I do each bodypart twice in those 10 days. My diet is spot on. Cutting I manage 6 meals per day every 2-2.5 hours and bulking i manage 7 meals with at least a gallon of water. I have made great gains over the years but they are slowly tapering to a hault. Im at the point where I believe im ready for AAS. Ive done a fair share of research but im getting conflicting information(isnt that always the case?) I was planning on starting out with deca durabolin 200mg/week for 4 weeks(i know that doseage seems low but im a noob). This was going to be followed by 4 weeks off. Then I was going to stack primobolan 200mg/week with oxandrolone(var)35gm/day for an addition 4 weeks followed by 4 weeks off. Does this sound like a good beginning protocol? Ive been hearing a lot of nay-saying about starting off with deca. If any experienced members could please chime in I would be MORE than greatful!
  2. Sensational

    Sensational Junior Member


    Its always good to have dedicated members and members who are also looking for knowledge.

    There are two schools of thought as to what a first cycle should look like:

    1) It should be a low dose simple cycle like: 250 mg test per week.

    2) That your first cycle is your best and that you should optimize it.

    What drugs did you want to use? I must say your above cycles aren't good at all, since deca and primo both have long half lives, you are still "Shut down" for pretty much the duration of your four weeks off.

    So, first guideline for your first cycle should be duration of at least 8 weeks, preferably 10.

    Second guideline: You did not mention pct, in the very least after your cycle (I will get into further detail after we collaborate a bit more) you should take hcg at roughly 500iu E3D, and something like aromasin to control estrogen rebound (Estrogen works as a negative feedback signal for test production as well).

    Third Guideline: What are your goals for this cycle? How much weight do you want to add? What side effects are you looking to avoid?

    Answer those 3 guidelines and we can move further in what substances you should use and for what duration.

    Again, Good to have a brother in iron!
  3. Meathead27

    Meathead27 Member

    Thanks for the fast reponse! There seems to be a lot of friendly members here. As for drugs that ive been looking into, testosterone, Sustanon, Deca, and EQ have greatly peaked my interest but im willing to try whatever would be the most efficient and beneficial cycle possible(also the duration of the cycle isnt really a concern). I want to be at least 200 pounds contest weight within the next 2 years and will be taking time off from competing to do an extended bulking phase. As for my PCT I was planning on using arimidex(during cycle), HCG, and nolvadex. If you think something would be more beneficial please correct me. As for side effects..I am hoping to avoid anything that I possibly can. Obviously gyno, acne, my HPTA, and hairloss are of much greater concern to me than gaining fat or retaining water. If you need more information that what ive already posted please let me know. Thanks again for your help!
  4. Sensational

    Sensational Junior Member

    Awesome that you were planning to use Arimidex during the cycle! The PCT looks like a good protocol that you have outlined there.

    Since you have never used AAS before, and wish to mitigate the side effects that you listed, I would shy away from any progestogenic drugs; therefore I believe deca should be saved for a future cycle. Lets keep it strictly to AAS that aromatize so we only have to worry about estrogenic activity.

    For a good first cycle, Test and EQ, or just simply test will suffice.

    Remember that test is test after the ester is removed, so whatever test is the best that you can get should be what you do.

    Cycle 1 (Test alone):

    500mg of enanthate(or any test) every week for 10 weeks. (If enanthate split into bi-weekly injections. If sustanon do Every other day, if prop every other day, if cypionate bi-weekly) Run Arimidex throughout at .25mg ED and start your PCT 3 weeks after cessation of your cycle.

    Cycle 2: Test and EQ:

    Personally, I like to run EQ for at least 12 weeks, due to the length of the ester. But I think 10 weeks of EQ and 12 weeks of test starting PCT 3 weeks after your last test injection should be fine as well.

    I would stick to injectables for the time being as they tend to be nicer on blood lipids than oral AAS. Leave D-bol, Winny, Anavar (Could run, its sexy) etc for future cycles.

    As a note, you could substitute EQ for primobolan and people seem to notice a more quality look to the muscle when running primo with test. But it is expensive and finding legit primo can be a problem (not a source board so nobody will help there).

    Any other questions feel free to ask! Hope this helps!
  5. Meathead27

    Meathead27 Member

    This GREATLY helps! I just have a couple more Q's... I can get any form of test so which one would you personally recommend? You said I should start running my PCT 3 weeks after my last that means I should be cold turkey for 3 weeks before starting anything?(just making sure I understand correctly). Also how long is the duration of my PCT and could you break down proper doseages of the hcg and nolva for me? You also said anavar is optional. Would you recommend this for my first cycle as well and if so at what dosage? What should I increase my calorie intake to?(During a natural bulk I would typically consume 4500 cals/day). What kind of gains should I expect to see(and maintain) at the end of the cycle? And finally what would be the doseage on the EQ during my second cycle? Im extremely excited(incredibly nervous) to get started so im sorry that im asking so many questions. I just want to do everything right.
  6. Sensational

    Sensational Junior Member

    Nothing to be sorry for bro, knowledge is power.

    My previous post was a bit unclear: Those were the two options between cycles to choose from, both being your first cycle!

    As far as the anavar goes, I would run at least 40mg ED for the last 6 weeks of the cycle. This will harden you up and will be great for strength and vascularity.

    I would personally recommend an ester like enanthate to go with EQ, as bi-weekly injections will be suitable for both compounds (yes you can use both substances in same syringe.

    You will not be "cold turkey" for the 3 weeks after your last injection. You will still have some testosterone and a little EQ at this time, up until about week 3 when the exogenous stores should about be exhausted. It doesn't make sense to try to stimulate your own testosterone production while you still have exogenous test "Shutting you down" (Your body senses the presence of testosterone and estrogen and does not need to produce its on test).

    As far as the breakdown of PCT, I would take 500iu of HCG E3D for 4 weeks (5000iu total), and start at 20-40mg of nolvadex ED for that same duration. I would also run arimidex at .5 mg EOD or .25 mg ED while doing this, and possibly continue the arimidex 2 weeks longer than the HCG and nolva to control estrogen rebound. After all of this, it will be six weeks off, and take another 6 weeks off to gauge how well you recovered before going on cycle again.

    As for the second cycle, 400-600mg of EQ would be fine again. I would just simply add something like proviron, or a substance that binds strongly to SHBG to enhance gains in your second cycle.

    As for diet: What is your macronutrient breakdown? I have had great success with 2grams of protein per pound of bodyweight while on cycle. I don't like to eat really dirty carbs either, so my calories don't ever really get about 5000 on cycle. But, I would start with the same 4500 calories but with the aforementioned protein intake and modulate based on how your gains are progressing.

    As far as what to expect: I would expect 10 pounds probably by week 4, and then a solid 2 pounds per week from there on out. Could be more, could be a bit less, really depends on your personal genetics. As far as maintaining, I don't think you will lose much from this cycle. You will obviously lose the water weight after the cycle is over, but as an experienced natural bodybuilder you can differentiate betweeen "good" and "bad" weight. I would expect an individual with your level of dedication to retain 80-90% of all muscle gained on this cycle.

    As for your second cycle, don't plan it yet. See how this cycle goes, and what your goals are before the next cycle, and we can set a program up for you to reach those goals with the proper substances.

    Good luck, be safe, and always ask questions if you don't know the answer. We are here to help bro.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2008
  7. Meathead27

    Meathead27 Member

    Okay so correct me if I made a mistake somewhere but the cycle is going to go as follows:

    Week 1: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), .25mg arimidex(ED)

    Week 2: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 3: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 4: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 5: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 6: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 7: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), 40mg Anavar(ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 8: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), 40mg Anavar(ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 9: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), 40mg Anavar(ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 10: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), 40mg Anavar(ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 11: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), 40mg Anavar(ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week12: 500mg Test-E(bi-weekly), 500mg EQ(bi-weekly), 40mg Anavar(ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 13: OFF

    Week 14: OFF

    Week 15: OFF

    Week 16: 500iu hcg(EOD), 40mg nolvadex (ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 17: 500iu HCG(EOD), 40mg Nolvadex (ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 18: 500iu HCG(EOD), 40mg Nolvadex (ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 19: 500iu HCG(EOD), 40mg Nolvadex (ED), .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 20: .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    Week 21: .25mg Arimidex(ED)

    My diet contains 4500cals/day distributed throughout 7 meals and my macronutrient breakdown goes as follows:
    Protein - 400g
    Carbs - 500g(almost entirely composed of complex)
    Fats - 100g(mainly mono's and poly's)

    Now when you said "bi-weekly injections will be suitable for both compounds (yes you can use both substances in same syringe.)" do you mean I can reuse the same syringe for both substances or I can load both susbstances into the syringe at the same time and therefore, only do 1 injection?
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2008
  8. dennis

    dennis Member

  9. Sensational

    Sensational Junior Member

    Dennis makes a good point of hcg during the cycle, but I am always very wary of desensitizing the leydig cells. 750's should be fine without doing this though. You could drop the arimidex while on nolvadex during pct, but I would use it, and would use it for two weeks following PCT for estrogen rebound.

    The HCG thing during cycle, bro's do this to prevent total "shut down" and some people anecdotally believe that it accomplishes this. I don't believe this, but if you are cosmetically worried about the shrinkage of your balls, you could use HCG during the cycle to help with that.

    Your above cycle looks good. Dennis has you using Anavar up until PCT which is fine since its half life is only 8 hours. You could do this if you don't want the dry period of a couple of weeks.
  10. Sensational

    Sensational Junior Member

    I mean you can draw both substances from their bottles with the same needle into the same syringe, then change the needle then shoot. So, if your test is 250mg/ml, and your EQ is 200mg/ml, then in the syringe you would have 1 ml of test, and 1.5 ml of EQ for a total of 2.5 ml. I think this is an ok volume for the glutes. Try and train legs on the day you shoot as this will help with injection pain, or do cardio that drops a heavy workload on the glutes. So, you will have to shoot mon and thursday, and never reuse the same syringe or needle. They are cheap, or other sites will show just how inexpensive they are.

    Other than that, you could run anavar all the way up until PCT if you wanted as dennis said. But the cycle looks great and I love the macronutrient breakdown!
  11. lou123

    lou123 Junior Member

    You guys really like 3 weeks to pct ? Your T level is back to within normal range by day 10 and very low by day 14. I have confirmed this many times with blood tests. Rev ving up the HPTA a week early certainly isn't going to hurt anything.

    I think .25 mg (1/4 pill) 2-3 x's a week is fine for his dosages, real adex is very expensive.

    If hair loss is an issue he needs to be on propecia ( get generic proscar and cut it into 1/4's) at 1.25 mg at least 2 months before the cycle. Rememer that dose is to block DHT in a normal person not using steroids so you will need at least 2.5 mg/day of finasteride on cycle. Not everyone loses hair on steroids, look around your family, if you see hair loss in the males I would play ot safe. Also remember there is no guarantee Finasteride will stop steroid related hair loss and it only works with test. Many say it actually accelerates hair loss when used with Deca.
  12. Sensational

    Sensational Junior Member

    I will answer this piece by piece.

    FIrst of all, the HPTA is not an engine and does not "rev up", it is a very astute axis that is very sensitive to even slight changes in hormones. If there is exogenous test in the body, it will continue to negatively modulate the production of testosterone. So yes, wait until the drugs have cleared your system.

    Second, he doesn't need "real" adex, and yes he could probably get away with less, but gyno is hard to get rid of without surgery even with intensive pharmacological therapy.

    Third. No, he should not use finasteride. The benefit/detriment ratio leans very far toward detriment with finesteride. If he is concerned with MPD he should just not use steroids...plain and simple. Plus, DHT can really enhance the effectiveness of a cycle.

    Not flaming your bro, just need to disagree and point out things I think are misleading.
  13. lou123

    lou123 Junior Member

    I don't want to argue so i am just going to use myself as an example here.

    On a 500 mg/week T cycle my test level is back below 350 NG/DL and my LH and FSH are hovering around 1.x by day 14 post cycle so pct can and IMO should be started then.

    1/4 mg of real pharmaceutical Adex 2X's a week keeps my E2 less than 40 on 500mg week of T so I never saw a reason to use more.

    Again in my own peronal observation which are verified by blood tests my LH and FH take off well before my body begins to actually increase T production. T production seems to start about day 9 with me on 40 mg/day of tamox. E2 goes up before my T levels do

    I have cycled plenty with and without finasteride and the only difference I noticed was less ( not zero) hair loss on Finasteride.

    As i said I'm here to learn not argue but I have access to blood tests whenever I want them and if i was to wait 3 weeks to start PCT I would be walking around with a T level below 300 for 2 1/2weeks.

    I took Phreezers PCT suggestions that are stickied on the site and copied below and modified them because I don't need hcg on such a small dose of T ( I never go over 500 mg week) and I don't like clomid so I run nolva for 6 weeks 40x2 weeks, 20 x 2, 10 x 2. Works for me

    Copied from Phreezers 1st cycle sticky

    Ok, Here is the addition of Post cycle recovery that I promised. I also added something about opening amps in the drawing your oils section.

    Clomid, nolvadex, HCG, arimidex These are the ones I have the most experience with. For Femara; Post a question on the main board.

    Standard Recovery cycle.

    HCG: 1000IUs For Ten days. Starting one day after last injection.
    Clomid: Starting on the last day of The HCG.
    Day 1: 150mg
    Day 2-8: 100mg ED
    Day 9-16: 50mg ED
    Day 17-24: 50mg EOD
    NOLVADEX: 20mg ED Starting and Ending on the same day As the HCG.
    If you are pron to gyno, or are having Itchy Nipples, painful nipples or lumps in your nipples. Administer 40mg-80mg ED For Two weeks.
    Nolvadex is also something you can take throughout your entire cycle. You might try
    10mg ED (1/2 tab). It will reduce water retention and help keep you from getting gyno.
    I believe that arimidex would be a better choice to administer during cycle because Nolvadex lowers igf-1 levels where arimidex increases them if you take arimidex during your cycle, .5mg ED should be sufficient.

    None of these amounts are completely set in stone. You can do 500-1000IUs Of HCG
    ED for Ten days, You can start at 200mg Clomid and change the amounts over the cycle a little, Drop the Nolvadex, Drop the clomid and take 40mg Nolva ED for post cycleFor different examples, do a search, or post a question on the main board asking for other peoples post cycle recovery plans. Im sure some of the other guys will post info on Arimidex and liquidex.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2008
  14. Sensational

    Sensational Junior Member

    We will have to agree to disagree. Anyway, nice to meet ya!
  15. dennis

    dennis Member

    Just for the record: I am telling him to start pct week 14 ..2 weeks after last shot of test.But..he should take var during this time..And I would not overdo the adex.