No results!

Discussion in 'Training Forum' started by Bob Smith, Feb 14, 2004.

Cause of no results?

  1. Bad training program

    10 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. Poor nutrition

    22 vote(s)
    48.9%
  3. Lack of consistency

    11 vote(s)
    24.4%
  4. Believing the magazines contain "information"

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Following what the pros do

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Other

    2 vote(s)
    4.4%
  1. Chip Bronson

    Chip Bronson Junior Member


    hey, we just disagree. :D but, imho, no way a potato-chip-eating-no-sleep-havnig dude is going to make even half-decent gains. i'll stand by my original post but i will re-word it for the sake of accuracy.

    again, no way an average guy is going to make even decent gains with the protocol freddy described unless:

    1)they're late teens or early 20's

    and/or

    2)they're genetcially gifted.

    and even then, they would only be skimming the surface of what they could ultimately accomplish. so i guess js works with a lot of young, genetcially gifted athletes.

    how's that? ;)
     
  2. Ronin_

    Ronin_ Junior Member

    Poor training definitely. You can keep gaining eating a mediocre diet if you train well. If you train poorly the best diet isnt going to make you gain
     
  3. Freddy

    Freddy Junior Member

    You can say 'no way' all you want, its worked literally hundreds of times in the past, I don't know how the data could be any clearer.

    JS has certainly worked with a lot of fantastic athletes. He's also worked with a lot of genetically "average" athletes. Both make great gains on this type of program.

    If that doesn't convince you, thats fine. However, the 5x5 is one of the few programs out there with this kind of documented success. It really is hard to make a case to the contrary.

    EDIT: One more thing to think about...and I'm not saying this applies to anyone in this thread. Perhaps the reason some people need to eat so much to make progress is BECAUSE their training program is so poor.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2004
  4. Chip Bronson

    Chip Bronson Junior Member

    i won't debate this point anymore, as you seem to know everything, but i'll leave you with this. do you eat a starvation-level/poor diet? do you regularly, for whatever reason, burn the midnight oil? i'll be willing to bet that you don't. i'll bet you, as well as most bros on this board, 'watch' your diet and your sleeping patterns as much as possible. why do you think that is? ;)
     
  5. thick

    thick Junior Member

    I know first hand you are correct freddy. Good gains are very possible with very poor nutrition. NOt optimal gains but good gains
     
  6. Chip Bronson

    Chip Bronson Junior Member

    then go ahead bros. if it works for you, by all means, eat poorly and don't get enough sleep. i, however, will stick to what logic dictates, as bodybuilding is not outside the realm of the logical, and what has and does work for me.
     
  7. thick

    thick Junior Member

    lets have a contest lol. No, I am just saying my opinion on what is most important to getting some results or why you dont see any results. Obviously we all realize that diet is important to getting the best results but you can eat and sleep with perfection and you wont grow a bit w/o lifting but you can lift and not eat or sleep right and still get some muscle in my most humble opinion. take care buddy
     
  8. Chip Bronson

    Chip Bronson Junior Member

    i love you too man. you still rule in my book... :D
     
  9. Freddy

    Freddy Junior Member

    LOL...you're getting a little work up about this. And you're not listening to what I'm saying.

    So...relax. And let me explain further.

    As Dolfe pointed out, BS asked about the single most important factor. And as has been pretty much proven with programs like the 5x5 and WSB, you can accomplish your goals as long as the training is good, even if all the other factors are totally in the shitter. How else do you explain the world record holders at WSB eating total shit, or JS's guys doing the same thing themselves and still making fantastic personal progress. This is a common trend in a lot of clubs. And the "they're all genetically gifted" argument is tiring...because they just aren't! Sure, every club has its Chuck V's and its Shane Hammons (lol..if only that were true), but Louie and JS are working with much more average athletes than not...and the results speak for themselves.

    I never once said that its desirable to starve yourself...I said you could do it and it would work. Of course if you eat right and sleep a ton you'll do better. You could eat the ideal diet however, and you'd never make progress if your program was shit. And thats the problem with a lot of bodybuilders...they focus on diet, rather than training.

    That was the point of the thread, and thats what I was responding to.
     
  10. Chip Bronson

    Chip Bronson Junior Member

    oh stop, point well taken. i love you too man. :D in like a totally hetero way, of course... ;)

    ps: i'm glad we have guys like yourself and thick on this board as i learn a lot from you all the time.
     
  11. Freddy

    Freddy Junior Member

    Just making sure everything is cool.
     
  12. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member


    YOu miss the point here entirely Chip.. Freddy isn't saying that you can starve yourself to death and make gains.. An Ethiopian doesn't stand a chance of making it in the heavies regardless of how much he lifts.... But what He is saying is that when you take a guy on a normal everyday diet.. He will Grow and get bigger and stronger if he is on a Good Training program... You take the same guy on the same diet and give him a crappy to moderate training program..and he won't grow hardly a lick... Again. J.S. is right bro.. Diet really is over rated... A normal everyday diet.. or even one that is .. what was that thick..??.. the potato Chip diet..Lol.. will still net a Lifter on a good training program very real and very succesful gains.. Again..if you take a guy on an incredible diet..eating everything that's not nailed down...If his training program isn't good or well structured.. he is simply wasting his time and his money...

    An example: If you would take two guys...Who live in the dorms ;) They both eat the same diet every day...those 3 God awful meals they feed you plus whatever snacks they can get their hands on... If you take these two guys and put one of them with a good strength and conditioning coach..and let the other guy wing it alone at the local YMCA.. After a short amount of time The guy with the Good strength program is going to blow the doors off of the guy winging it alone.. He will be much bigger and stronger than the guy who just goes to Y without a real solid program.....and I'll even take it one step farther.. if you take these same two guys.. But Give one guy all the protein bars and all the shakes and all the regular food that he wants to eat..but you only give the other guy his Regular 3 meals from the dorm plus whatever snacks he can find.. Now, the guy who gets to eat whatever he wants..when he wants.. has to wing it at the local YMCA.. but if the other guy who only gets 3 dorm meals plus snacks works out with a good strength coach.. The man with the strength coach will still blow the doors off the guy who can whatever and whenever he wants...The guy with the good coach will Be larger stronger and faster than his counterpart who works out at the YMCA.

    and That I believe is the honest truth.
     
  13. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Oh man.. YOU guys allready kissed and made up... and here i was trying to make a point that you guys shouldn't be fighting..but should just be agreeing with me!!! LOL
     
  14. Freddy

    Freddy Junior Member

    Hahaha, yes, Phreezer, that was indeed my point. Maybe you should just speak for me from now on. ;)
     
  15. Chip Bronson

    Chip Bronson Junior Member

    i guess i was being way too literal. that's an analyst for ya... phreezer, i was thinking of cyber-kicking your 270lb butt for your first post but, upon further reflection, i'm just gonna include you in my group hug instead. :D i luvs ya too big guy.... ;)
     
  16. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    lol
     
  17. Mark Kerr

    Mark Kerr Junior Member

    It might also depend on your goals. For example, JS and Louie Simmons say training because they are primarily strength/Powerlifting coaches (from what I know of em). Powerlifters can eat like shit and still make gains if they train hard, thats no secret. Of course, it helps only having to lower the bar to your bloated belly.

    Bodybuilders on the other hand, they can train their asses off, but if your nutrition is screwed, you are going nowhere near a competition stage. Plain and simple.

    So, for powerlifting I would agree that training is the SINGLE biggest factor but for bodybuilding I would say nutrition.

    I do believe in the chain theory though. Your progress is only as good as your weakest link. I dont think Scot Mendelson only eats 2k calories a day, and I dont think Ronnie Coleman does 1 set of cable curls and calls it a day. I hope I have been clear.

    [MK]

    P.S. I am not saying all powerlifters are fat, but what I am saying is that to say PL's in competition are not fatter than bodybuilders in competition is a lie. Just look at the video posted about the world record benchpress, and you will know what I am saying.
     
  18. Freddy

    Freddy Junior Member

    Well, I don't think anyone is going to argue that you can get into competition bodybuilding shape with poor dieting. Bob Smith was talking about gaining LBM and strength.

    Its funny you mention Scot Mendelson though, considering he always competes with a full six pack...and I don't mean of beer. Doesn't exactly meet the "fat powerlifter" stereotype.

    Again, this is coming back to people misinterpretting what I'm saying. I'm not saying that you need to throw nutrition out the window. Just focus more on your training, because no matter what sport you're in, thats what is responcible for LBM and strength gains.

     
  19. Gavin Laird

    Gavin Laird Junior Member

    Hold up a minute....

    Peer back through the mists of time to my first post in this thread which was along the lines of...

    "No stimulus (crap training program) = No potential for gains.

    No nutrition = no realisation of gains."

    Training is the most important as without a training stimulus there is no possibility of making gains. Nutrition is secondary as it merely determines what level of gains will be attained from the training stimulus.

    Isn't that what were all agreeing on now ? Ofcourse training is number 1 but ya still gotta eat (thank god).

    Gav.
     
  20. thick

    thick Junior Member

    what the hell was bob thinking starting this thread :confused: