PCT-My thoughts on Post cycle therapy ~ Phreezer

Discussion in 'Steroid Forum' started by Phreezer, Jun 9, 2004.

  1. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Ive recieved about a half dozen emails and pms this week about post cycle therapy, Ive also been seeing a lot of posts about it latelyso I decided to go digging through some of my old archives Here are a couple of posts about Post cycle therapy.One by myself and the other by HoggI hope this helps! (REMEMBR! THIS IS ONLY MY OPPINION...AND NO ONE ELSE'S)

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    Date: 03/15/03 11:40 PM
    Author: Phreezer
    Subject: Post cycle therapy

    Now, I don't want to get into ANOTHER big debate on hcg admistration, but of all the posts I've seen about it the one that sticks out in my mind the most, and offers the most credibility is by Hogg. From my own experience I've run HCG anywhere from 7 - 10 days out and had very good results. So I'm inclined not to believe some of the posts that say take HCG two weeks or ten days BEFORE your last shot. However, those guys that say to start ten days before your last shot, have obviously had good results doing it their way...SO the question thats been floating around the board lately...Who is Right? Two weeks before last shot? Ten days before Last shot? Day after your last shot? ten days after your last shot?

    Apparently there is some kind of window here that allows for a somewhat larger error curve with HCG. Optimally you want to recover from testicular atrophy and have testosterone suppression end corresponding with the time that natural testosterone production comes back online. So from doing a great deal of studying on my own, and reading over the other guys posts, I start HCG administration the Day AFTER my last shot. (Ultimately I don't think you are going to be wrong if you wait a week) With the different opinions (that are adamant) there has to be a greater window for HCG administration than was once believed...

    1,000IU's ED for Ten days STARTING the day after my last shot.

    A lot of the timing with HCG has a great deal to do with what form of aas you are using..It would take too long to get into everything (you can easily do a search and find out) but with simple testosterone there are a lot of blood level calculators that can make the work a lot easier...

    Since Test is pretty much test. I'm making a guess (a fairly educated guess) as to the time the test will clear and how long it will take to recover from testicular atrophy.

    Now [Since your my size], I'm saying to run 1000IU's ed for ten days starting the day after your last shot.If this is your first time using HCG I would suggest 500Iu's ED for your first time...Once you get more experienced you'll know if 500IU's is enough for you, or if it doesn't really do much and then you can up your dosage to 1000IU's.

    the reason I say to start off with 500IU's ED for first time us is because HCG can desensitise your Leydig cells,,,then you'll be on HRT full time for the rest of your life (Hello viagra) There isn't really a reason to use more than necessary here. HCG is great at bringing the boys back to full size, but like anything else, too much can seriously harm you..
    But you say "Phreezer, why 1000IU's, I see a lot of people say that they only do 500IU's?" Well, I've always done a 1000, and a 1000 works for me, So if it ain't broke, I don't need to fix it. Since your pretty much the same size as I am, I am recommending you do the same amount as me. Now, some guys do respond well to 500IU's..I don't know, I can only speak for myself and you may respond nicely to 500IU's ED and your boys may drop back down to their full size off of that amount...This is something only you can know, and something your going to have to find out on your own.

    WRT to injection sites, HCG can be administered SubQ or IM, I always go subQ for the simple convenience of it. Hogg suggests that you go IM because of absorption time. (if your only getting 1000IU's per ML I think IM is the way to go) So if you choose to go IM then Delts, glutes and quads should be just fine for your injections. You'll be using a slin pin (most likely) so there's no real pain involved....If you choose to go subQ a good place is just to pinch a little bit of fat around your navel and inject there (you'll feel a slightly warm sensation) love handles are also a good place (Just like if you were shooting insulin)..

    The time of day doesn't really matter, I prefer to keep a consistent injection schedule. Say I do my first shot in the am, in all likely hood I will continue all my shots in the am..and the same with pm shots. However if you miss a shot in the morning it's perfectly fine to do your next shot in the evening, it's what ever you decide.

    I've done clomid on the same day I've started HCG. I've started clomid when I finished HCG. If I don't do clomid on the same day I start HCG I'll do nolvadex..Although I would have to think arimidex may be better than Nolvadex after learning that arimidex increases igf-1 levels. But I always keep Nolvadex on hand because I'm old school and I'm scared of gyno. And Nolvadex has worked for me in the past to stop gyno...Again, if it ain't broke, don't fuck with it!

    HCG: 1000IU's Day After last AAS shot. Run for Ten days with Nolvadex @ 20mg ED throughout, if itchy or painful nipps start to appear try uping that dosage to 40mg ED or all they way up to 80mg ED.

    Now I'm an old school clomid administrator also....If it ain't broke, (you allready know the second part of that) So I start high and taper off. A good time to take Clomid as at bed time.. this helps avoid a lot of the PMS feeling.. .you'll be asleep when these emotions peek...(If your pron to this that is... a lot of people take clomid and never experience any of the mood swings and wide range of emotions associated with clomid)

    150mg Clomid day (Only)

    day 2-8 100mg ED

    day 9-16 50mg ED -

    day 17-24 50mg EOD...

    HCG 1000IU'S ED for ten days, 20mg Nolvadex ED along with the HCG, The day after my last HCG shot I start clomid therapy. This is just over a month long, so you should be able to start another cycle within 5-6 weeks after finishing your last. [assuming everything is back on line] If your doing longer cycles, you may need to administer clomid for another 10-21 days.

    Phreezer

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    Originally Posted by Hogg

    You look at your cycle and try to assess your clearance period. Basically, if you are using say enanthate and eq, you can make a simple spreadsheet wherein you take each injection and cut it in half every 6 days.....so you would have a bunch of columns representing day 6,12,18,24,30,36,41 and the first entry under day 6 would be 500 corresponding to 500mg injected on day 6, under the day 12 column, the number would be 250, then 125 at 18, 62.5 at day 24, etc. The next line would be the next injection - say you injected another 500mg on day 12, so then day 18 would be 250, 125 on day 24 etc.

    This is the simple way of calculating out how much gear is in your system and how long it will take to clear. You are basically treating test as a 6 day ester, some say 5, others say 7, split the difference and you will be pretty close.....we cant actually pinpoint the actual time since everybody metabolizes gear slightly different but certainly faster than rats for some strange reason.
    Now, once you go through this process, you realize that if you were using a gram or more per week of test, it takes a little while for it to clear....actually, like 3-4 weeks to really clear. BUT, oddly enough, it seems that clearance occurs faster than this in reality. In practice, it would be difficult to determine the remainder of ester-bound test in vitro ...typically, they measure free T and T/epitestosterone which does not paint an accurate picture of the ester-bound testosterone remaining in your system.

    So, on paper, 3-4 weeks, in practice, 'by feel', it seems like roughly 2-3 weeks for a gram of test. Ok, well, if we structure the clearance to cover such a discrepancy end to end, than we are likely to avoid the rut and retain a higher percentage of gains. So, let us say that we stop our cycle on week 16, then week 17 is the week to begin HCG. Personally, 500iu doesnt do a darn thing for me....I've tried it and perhaps for some, it works, for me, it takes 1000iu. After 5 days of using HCG, my testes drop and they begin to fill, by day 10, my testes are full and swinging. That is what HCG is suppose to do and that is why I upped from 500iu to 1000. Bear in mind, the 500iu number comes from an article on *-*** wherein **** ****** said "Take 500iu ed throughout your whole cycle" Well, somehow *** and people like ***** twisted that down to 2 weeks of 500iu. It doesnt work. Now, why not 1500iu ed??? Well, the initial contemporary estimates on the dosage that would cause damage to the leydig cells was 2000iu I believe, but then **** ****** lowered his number to 1500iu.....why? Because in truth, he really doesnt know. Bear in mind, a physician will consult the PDR and prescribe a 5000-7500iu shot to a man but usually, it is seldom that such is actually practiced....and HCG is seldom prescribed long term to increase T levels.....fertility is already shot in the ass and it becomes much simpler to prescribe testosterone gels and creams ...Anyway, so the 1000iu number is 'probably' safe.....I've used it and have had a response to both HCG and clomid after coming off numerous times which is a sign that my leydig cells are still operational....its anecdotal but I doubt you will find any AMA studies which establish the damage threshhold......hopefully I have argued my point for 1000iu adequately.

    While running HCG for 10 days at 1000iu, we take nolvadex concurrently for 2 reasons - 1.) Since HCG aromatizes in the testes, we want to prevent gyno which can occur during HCG usage even with those who are able to take large amounts of test without anti-e and 2.) We want to shroud the htpa and block estrogen-induced inhibition.

    The purpose of HCG is to stimulate the testes to full production by mimicking natural gonadotropin release. If the testes are atrophied, they tend to slowly regain the ability to produce normal levels of T with clomid alone. By using HCG, we are restoring the testes ability to resume full production....and our only problem remaining is to restore gonadotropin release after using HCG.

    So,we run HCG for 10 days....we will come up 4 days short of a full 2 weeks. HCG is non-estrified and mimics LH. Its half life is thought to be hours though some cite the half life as being days. As the body typically secretes GnRH in pulses, numerous times throughout the day, it seems odd that LH would have a half life of days....simply put, it would mean that the body is capable of stacking up with endogenous T and we know that is not the case, we can crop endogenous T levels within hours by using certain substances. Anyway, so the 4 days is time for the HCG to clear and estrogen levels to subside. At the conclusion of this 4 day period, we are 3 weeks past our last injection of testosterone.....see how this all dovetails nicely together.

    So, since we started the HCG week 17 and have completed the 10 days, plus the remaining 4 days of week 18, we are now on week 19. Time for clomid.
    Personally, I use 100mg ed of clomid for 2 weeks, then 50mg ed for another 2 weeks. That stretches my total post cycle plan out to 6 weeks but my percentage of retained gains has been very good using this method. Since you ran clomid for weeks 19,20,21,and 22, you are now ready to think about either training naturally, or starting another cycle, or bridging. If you go completely natural, it is critical to use some type of cortisol blocker. Hulk raves about phosphatydine....or whatever the hell it is called. A light bridge of say 10mg ed of Anavar or 200mg/wk of primobolan is another smart way to go. With such a light bridge, you can still maintain endogenous T production while warding off catabolism. GH and slin is another good idea though if you were going to conclude a steroid cycle and use GH during recovery, I'd start Gh and slin right after the HCG......absolutely.....because GH and insulin will not interfere with recovery of endogenous T and .....GH will cause you to retain a positive nitrogen balance, thereby warding off catabolism.
    So that my friend is recovery in a nutshell
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2004
    Maxlass likes this.
  2. Tank01

    Tank01 Junior Member

    Good post Phreezer, good to have posts like this resurface every once in a while so people know how to do shit right...

    lata bro,
     
  3. jocko

    jocko Junior Member

    good post thanks man
     
  4. dzl66

    dzl66 Junior Member

    thanks for taking the time to post that info. phreezer.
     
  5. bigmik44

    bigmik44 Junior Member

    Ok I gotta question. What if you are on some test that takes 3 weeks to clear?
    When do you start the hcg? Week 18 for ten days, wait 4 days then start clomid on week 20?
    Oh yeah, I forgot my nads never shrink, so do I even need hcg?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2004
  6. VDC

    VDC Junior Member

    I found that doing 500iu's of hcg every 16 hours works best,,,I prefer doing HCG throughout the cycle,,,Workout your own therapy,,,I believe the HTPA can recover within a week, but the testes take longer,,,The longer the cycle the longer they take to recover(unless you've been doing HCG throughout, hint hint),,,VDC
     
  7. NDK

    NDK Junior Member

    I agree with VDC on every day use. Except I use 250 IU ed through out my cycles now. I have been doing this with my Test, tren cutter for 7 weeks now and I have no atrophy at all. Normally I would have shrunk by now. In the past waiting until the testes shrunk was too late, recovery took much longer. NDK
     
  8. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    Personaly, I think ED hcg administration is wholely unnecessary. If doing longer cycles HCG administration every few weeks does seem to keep testicular atrophy from becoming a problem.. Remember, we are men, and as such we must worry about Leydig cell desensitization.. because of this I would refrain from doing any injections that were not necessary.. Personaly, I would prefer to avoid placing myself in a situation where I would have to be on hRT for the rest of my life.
     
  9. MJM

    MJM Junior Member

    Good post Phreezer.Helped me with my theory on pct.I appreciate it.
     
  10. jboldman

    jboldman Junior Member

    i am with phreezer, the half-life of hcg is 32 hours so ed injects should not be necessary.

    jb
     
  11. cracka

    cracka Junior Member

    good read thanks ...
     
  12. 4545

    4545 Junior Member

    Great post
     
  13. Biggriz

    Biggriz Junior Member

    I'd like to hear what Einstein thinks>>>>>
     
  14. VDC

    VDC Junior Member

    Phreezer ever talk to Swale about those thoughts???VDC
     
  15. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member

    I have not discussed hcg administration with swale vdc.. However, I have used HCG for many years and through some trial and error and research of my own I've been able to learn what works best for me..

    WRT to swale's methods...You need to remember that he is dealing with older men who are permanantly supressed and on full time HRT... Most of the members of this board do not fall into this category.. I think it unwise to adminster the same treatment method for two entirely different demographics of people... There is a big difference between a 50 yr old man who has been permanantly shut down and that of a healthy 25 yr old who is only TEMPORARILY repressed. As this thread title stated.. this is MY oppinion... What do you base your previous statements on VDC?

    And I'd Also like to say, that since I have been an avid lifter for well over a decade, I believe that I have learned some very effective methods for keeping the muscular gains I makefrom my cycles...

    Does your HCG administration protocol allow you to keep a great majority of the muscular mass that you gain from your cycles?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2004
  16. NDK

    NDK Junior Member

    If I don't use hcg daily I will get atrophy in a few weeks every cycle. Once this happens it takes forever for size to get restored. My take on the ED use is from Swale. BTW he does have a large number of steroid using athletes, not just HRT guys. I dunno, waiting until the atrophy is a problem is way to late for me. I usually run 12 week cycles and I have tried almost every other method of HCG administration, daily seems to work best for me as long as it is only 250 I
     
  17. donniedarko

    donniedarko Junior Member

    What about the practice of using hcg on the weekend during the cycle, before it causes a problem? My understanding is that it does jumpstart T production, but is still suppressive. This means delaying recovery time despite having the appearence of recovering (your balls have dropped back down).

    I have yet to do a cycle, this just comes from research I have read on other sites. But the most common protocol I saw was to take it on the weekend 500iu on Sat. and Sun. from week 3 of the cycle until the end of the cycle.

    Curious about the science,
    DD
     
  18. VDC

    VDC Junior Member

    Phreezer,,,You should know by now that I am not a BBer,,,but am on HRT,,,I do have some experience with many different cycles and hcg dosing schedules,,,I always recommend that people experiment to find out what works best for them,,,As far a Swale goes what NDK pointed out is true,,,He does have many patients that are BBers,,,Why do you think he came to these boards in the first place???This is not criticism or arguement here,,,I'm just trying to clarify some points,,,Gee Phreez you're one of my fav mods:),,,VDC
     
  19. Phreezer

    Phreezer Member


    I know you're not trying to pick a fight VDC... I've known you for years... I did forget that you don't lift, and only use aas for HRT..... sometimes my mind doesn't work that well especially late at night... But thanks for that last comment :D I appreciate it!!!!!

    Max rep made a great point in another thread.... I'll cut and paste it here...

    This statement is VERY true.. and despite the use of HCG (which IMO if you over use HCG you'll land in the same boat) you will still be suppressed because you are continuing to inject AAS into your system.. so I'd just like to keep this in everyone's mind.. More often than not....LESS IS MORE...
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2004
  20. VDC

    VDC Junior Member

    I want to thank Enro for digging this up for me:



    Your own humble SWALE was the very first to recognize that hcg stimulates the production of all three hormonal pathways which use CHOL as starting point (mineralcorticoids, glucocorticoids and sex hormones) in ways beneficial to HPTA suppressed males. That is because its analog, LH, stimulates the P450SCC enzyme, which converts CHOL to pregnenolone, then onto the others. In HPTA suppressed males--and ALL who supplement testosterone are suppressed to some extent--this tends to restore a more healthful balance within, and across, these pathways.

    Nearly everyone who adds my HCG protocol to their TRT reports back they feel MUCH better on it. That is, in and of itself, a good thing. The only complaint so far? they aren't able to get as much work done because they are then spending so much time exercising their libido.

    We are finding more and more tissues where LH is active. I just do not like the idea of living long term with reduced LH, and HCG helps this.

    There just seems to be something very, very special about enhancing endogenous T production in HPTA-suppressed males, on a regular basis.
    This was written by swale I do not claim to have written this ENDRO.