PCT-My thoughts on Post cycle therapy ~ Phreezer

Naudo11

Junior Member
I am at week 10 right now but I want to get off the cycle because I know its bad with out test. I am about to order HCG. Where could I get the amp breaker? Next question, so when have you started the nolva and clomi after your cycles, I got the liquid forms from AR-R.
 

hackskii

Member
Naudo11 said:
I am at week 10 right now but I want to get off the cycle because I know its bad with out test. I am about to order HCG. Where could I get the amp breaker? Next question, so when have you started the nolva and clomi after your cycles, I got the liquid forms from AR-R.


No need for an amp breaker, just snap them with a quick firm grip.

What gear are you using and how much are you using?
This will determine when to start PCT.
 

bish35

Junior Member
Question if im running a short cycle of tren and winstrol for some lbs to be lost and throwing in some low dose test could I use hcg and clomid or hcg and nova or are all three needed for my pct
 

hackskii

Member
bish35 said:
Question if im running a short cycle of tren and winstrol for some lbs to be lost and throwing in some low dose test could I use hcg and clomid or hcg and nova or are all three needed for my pct

I always run clomid and nolva together and I run the nolva longer than the clomid.
Yes HCG can be used during the cycle to maintain testicular function.
Does not need much to maintain testicular function, somewhere around 350-500iu E3D is fine.
 

freezingsebastian

Junior Member
Having HCG, nolvadex and Clomid.

What would be a a good PCT if your running a cyccle of

Week 1-10 500mg sustanon (250mg monday and 250mg on FRIDAY)
Week 1-7 200mg of DECA (200mg on WEDnesday)
 

hackskii

Member
freezingsebastian said:
Having HCG, nolvadex and Clomid.

What would be a a good PCT if your running a cyccle of

Week 1-10 500mg sustanon (250mg monday and 250mg on FRIDAY)
Week 1-7 200mg of DECA (200mg on WEDnesday)

Yes, run the HCG throughout at around 350iu-500iu E3D and run that past the last sust shot.
Sustanon has a long ester in there so dont start your PCT till about 3 weeks from last jab.
I just got done with almost the exact same cycle @ 500 sust (2 shots), and some anavar, ran that 9 weeks.

I did notice thought that I did get testicular atrophy after I was done.
So, I should have ran that throughout at maybe about week 3.
Nuts still are a bit small but I am still running the HCG.
No problems really if you are taking a SERM with it.

I always run my nolva and clomid together.
I run my nolvadex @ 20mg for 45 days
Clomid 50mg twice a day (100 mg total) for 30 days.
Going to run them a little longer this time around as the nuts are not back to normal size, so no sense in stopping the HCG till full testicular function is achieved.
As of now I am 6 weeks from last jab.
I notice the sust stayed in my system a very long time, but this is the first time I have used sust.
I normally use enanthate or cypionate, or even propionate.
But, its all good, you should be fine.
 

bectism

Junior Member
was hoping someone could help with a couple of ?'s. been lifting for 15+ years. lifting and nutrition are good. new to gear. I have some second hand stuff and some ?'s how to use it. I have appox 2300-2400mg test prop. I have read and inquired about it use and received some input. This is all i have and it expires in may 07. I have decided to try it. Although some people think it is useless I'm going to try a cycle of 200/mg twice a week till it runs out. prob 5-6 weeks. It's all i got for now and i dont want it to expire. financially embarassed at moment. some think 500/wk is better for sorter period, i'm open as being a newbie. either way I was wondering if anti estrogen and pct is still needed. I also have a bottle of tamoxifen 11 mg caps and two vials of clomid 10000 IU cpd. Not sure if such a sort cycle warrants the use of this, and if the amounts would change. I made sure i was taking enough to not just replace my natural test but on a short cycle would my natural shut down enough to need pct. anti estrogen is a separate ?. dont know if the duration would cause gyno. anyway this is what i have and i really could use a hand with the best way to use it. I tried posting a thread on getbig with a much shorter thread and people seemed angry that i didnt do any research before asking for help. hence the long thread. I have read plenty on newbie cycles but none on such a short duration. others have said i would see gains and my theory is it cant hurt. but all research is on the 10-12 week cycle for newbies. I dont mind taking the abuse if needed. someone sent me a message, although would post (didnt want to be seen helping the newbie) and said someone here might be willing to help. thanks
 

musclepigg

Junior Member
Did a long cycle of T. Cyp and am shut down and atrophied (not too bad, they need to get back to normal).

I have about 9000iu of hcg available, plus toremifene, clomid and nolvadex.

Can anyone recommend a PCT that includes the toremifene? My last shot was 9 days ago.

Thanks in advance.
 

hackskii

Member
bectism, you will need to run a PCT with that, I notice atrophy within about 3 weeks time.
You could run short 17 day cycles with that with little supression
 

needtogetas

Junior Member
Phreezer said:
Ive recieved about a half dozen emails and pms this week about post cycle therapy, Ive also been seeing a lot of posts about it latelyso I decided to go digging through some of my old archives Here are a couple of posts about Post cycle therapy.One by myself and the other by HoggI hope this helps! (REMEMBR! THIS IS ONLY MY OPPINION...AND NO ONE ELSE'S)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 03/15/03 11:40 PM
Author: Phreezer
Subject: Post cycle therapy

Now, I don't want to get into ANOTHER big debate on HCG admistration, but of all the posts I've seen about it the one that sticks out in my mind the most, and offers the most credibility is by Hogg. From my own experience I've run HCG anywhere from 7 - 10 days out and had very good results. So I'm inclined not to believe some of the posts that say take HCG two weeks or ten days BEFORE your last shot. However, those guys that say to start ten days before your last shot, have obviously had good results doing it their way...SO the question thats been floating around the board lately...Who is Right? Two weeks before last shot? Ten days before Last shot? Day after your last shot? ten days after your last shot?

Apparently there is some kind of window here that allows for a somewhat larger error curve with HCG. Optimally you want to recover from testicular atrophy and have testosterone suppression end corresponding with the time that natural testosterone production comes back online. So from doing a great deal of studying on my own, and reading over the other guys posts, I start HCG administration the Day AFTER my last shot. (Ultimately I don't think you are going to be wrong if you wait a week) With the different opinions (that are adamant) there has to be a greater window for HCG administration than was once believed...

1,000IU's ED for Ten days STARTING the day after my last shot.

A lot of the timing with HCG has a great deal to do with what form of aas you are using..It would take too long to get into everything (you can easily do a search and find out) but with simple testosterone there are a lot of blood level calculators that can make the work a lot easier...

Since Test is pretty much test. I'm making a guess (a fairly educated guess) as to the time the test will clear and how long it will take to recover from testicular atrophy.

Now [Since your my size], I'm saying to run 1000IU's ed for ten days starting the day after your last shot.If this is your first time using HCG I would suggest 500Iu's ED for your first time...Once you get more experienced you'll know if 500IU's is enough for you, or if it doesn't really do much and then you can up your dosage to 1000IU's.

the reason I say to start off with 500IU's ED for first time us is because HCG can desensitise your Leydig cells,,,then you'll be on HRT full time for the rest of your life (Hello Viagra) There isn't really a reason to use more than necessary here. HCG is great at bringing the boys back to full size, but like anything else, too much can seriously harm you..
But you say "Phreezer, why 1000IU's, I see a lot of people say that they only do 500IU's?" Well, I've always done a 1000, and a 1000 works for me, So if it ain't broke, I don't need to fix it. Since your pretty much the same size as I am, I am recommending you do the same amount as me. Now, some guys do respond well to 500IU's..I don't know, I can only speak for myself and you may respond nicely to 500IU's ED and your boys may drop back down to their full size off of that amount...This is something only you can know, and something your going to have to find out on your own.

WRT to injection sites, HCG can be administered SubQ or IM, I always go subQ for the simple convenience of it. Hogg suggests that you go IM because of absorption time. (if your only getting 1000IU's per ML I think IM is the way to go) So if you choose to go IM then Delts, glutes and quads should be just fine for your injections. You'll be using a slin pin (most likely) so there's no real pain involved....If you choose to go subQ a good place is just to pinch a little bit of fat around your navel and inject there (you'll feel a slightly warm sensation) love handles are also a good place (Just like if you were shooting insulin)..

The time of day doesn't really matter, I prefer to keep a consistent injection schedule. Say I do my first shot in the am, in all likely hood I will continue all my shots in the am..and the same with pm shots. However if you miss a shot in the morning it's perfectly fine to do your next shot in the evening, it's what ever you decide.

I've done Clomid on the same day I've started HCG. I've started clomid when I finished HCG. If I don't do clomid on the same day I start HCG I'll do Nolvadex..Although I would have to think arimidex may be better than Nolvadex after learning that arimidex increases IGF-1 levels. But I always keep Nolvadex on hand because I'm old school and I'm scared of Gyno. And Nolvadex has worked for me in the past to stop gyno...Again, if it ain't broke, don't fuck with it!

HCG: 1000IU's Day After last AAS shot. Run for Ten days with Nolvadex @ 20mg ED throughout, if itchy or painful nipps start to appear try uping that dosage to 40mg ED or all they way up to 80mg ED.

Now I'm an old school clomid administrator also....If it ain't broke, (you allready know the second part of that) So I start high and taper off. A good time to take Clomid as at bed time.. this helps avoid a lot of the PMS feeling.. .you'll be asleep when these emotions peek...(If your pron to this that is... a lot of people take clomid and never experience any of the mood swings and wide range of emotions associated with clomid)

150mg Clomid day (Only)

day 2-8 100mg ED

day 9-16 50mg ED -

day 17-24 50mg EOD...

HCG 1000IU'S ED for ten days, 20mg Nolvadex ED along with the HCG, The day after my last HCG shot I start clomid therapy. This is just over a month long, so you should be able to start another cycle within 5-6 weeks after finishing your last. [assuming everything is back on line] If your doing longer cycles, you may need to administer clomid for another 10-21 days.

Phreezer

----------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Hogg

You look at your cycle and try to assess your clearance period. Basically, if you are using say enanthate and eq, you can make a simple spreadsheet wherein you take each injection and cut it in half every 6 days.....so you would have a bunch of columns representing day 6,12,18,24,30,36,41 and the first entry under day 6 would be 500 corresponding to 500mg injected on day 6, under the day 12 column, the number would be 250, then 125 at 18, 62.5 at day 24, etc. The next line would be the next injection - say you injected another 500mg on day 12, so then day 18 would be 250, 125 on day 24 etc.

This is the simple way of calculating out how much gear is in your system and how long it will take to clear. You are basically treating test as a 6 day ester, some say 5, others say 7, split the difference and you will be pretty close.....we cant actually pinpoint the actual time since everybody metabolizes gear slightly different but certainly faster than rats for some strange reason.
Now, once you go through this process, you realize that if you were using a gram or more per week of test, it takes a little while for it to clear....actually, like 3-4 weeks to really clear. BUT, oddly enough, it seems that clearance occurs faster than this in reality. In practice, it would be difficult to determine the remainder of ester-bound test in vitro ...typically, they measure free T and T/epitestosterone which does not paint an accurate picture of the ester-bound testosterone remaining in your system.

So, on paper, 3-4 weeks, in practice, 'by feel', it seems like roughly 2-3 weeks for a gram of test. Ok, well, if we structure the clearance to cover such a discrepancy end to end, than we are likely to avoid the rut and retain a higher percentage of gains. So, let us say that we stop our cycle on week 16, then week 17 is the week to begin HCG. Personally, 500iu doesnt do a darn thing for me....I've tried it and perhaps for some, it works, for me, it takes 1000iu. After 5 days of using HCG, my testes drop and they begin to fill, by day 10, my testes are full and swinging. That is what HCG is suppose to do and that is why I upped from 500iu to 1000. Bear in mind, the 500iu number comes from an article on *-*** wherein **** ****** said "Take 500iu ed throughout your whole cycle" Well, somehow *** and people like ***** twisted that down to 2 weeks of 500iu. It doesnt work. Now, why not 1500iu ed??? Well, the initial contemporary estimates on the dosage that would cause damage to the leydig cells was 2000iu I believe, but then **** ****** lowered his number to 1500iu.....why? Because in truth, he really doesnt know. Bear in mind, a physician will consult the PDR and prescribe a 5000-7500iu shot to a man but usually, it is seldom that such is actually practiced....and HCG is seldom prescribed long term to increase T levels.....fertility is already shot in the ass and it becomes much simpler to prescribe testosterone gels and creams ...Anyway, so the 1000iu number is 'probably' safe.....I've used it and have had a response to both HCG and clomid after coming off numerous times which is a sign that my leydig cells are still operational....its anecdotal but I doubt you will find any AMA studies which establish the damage threshhold......hopefully I have argued my point for 1000iu adequately.

While running HCG for 10 days at 1000iu, we take nolvadex concurrently for 2 reasons - 1.) Since HCG aromatizes in the testes, we want to prevent gyno which can occur during HCG usage even with those who are able to take large amounts of test without anti-e and 2.) We want to shroud the htpa and block estrogen-induced inhibition.

The purpose of HCG is to stimulate the testes to full production by mimicking natural gonadotropin release. If the testes are atrophied, they tend to slowly regain the ability to produce normal levels of T with clomid alone. By using HCG, we are restoring the testes ability to resume full production....and our only problem remaining is to restore gonadotropin release after using HCG.

So,we run HCG for 10 days....we will come up 4 days short of a full 2 weeks. HCG is non-estrified and mimics LH. Its half life is thought to be hours though some cite the half life as being days. As the body typically secretes GnRH in pulses, numerous times throughout the day, it seems odd that LH would have a half life of days....simply put, it would mean that the body is capable of stacking up with endogenous T and we know that is not the case, we can crop endogenous T levels within hours by using certain substances. Anyway, so the 4 days is time for the HCG to clear and estrogen levels to subside. At the conclusion of this 4 day period, we are 3 weeks past our last injection of testosterone.....see how this all dovetails nicely together.

So, since we started the HCG week 17 and have completed the 10 days, plus the remaining 4 days of week 18, we are now on week 19. Time for clomid.
Personally, I use 100mg ed of clomid for 2 weeks, then 50mg ed for another 2 weeks. That stretches my total post cycle plan out to 6 weeks but my percentage of retained gains has been very good using this method. Since you ran clomid for weeks 19,20,21,and 22, you are now ready to think about either training naturally, or starting another cycle, or bridging. If you go completely natural, it is critical to use some type of cortisol blocker. Hulk raves about phosphatydine....or whatever the hell it is called. A light bridge of say 10mg ed of anavar or 200mg/wk of primobolan is another smart way to go. With such a light bridge, you can still maintain endogenous T production while warding off catabolism. GH and slin is another good idea though if you were going to conclude a steroid cycle and use GH during recovery, I'd start Gh and slin right after the HCG......absolutely.....because GH and insulin will not interfere with recovery of endogenous T and .....GH will cause you to retain a positive nitrogen balance, thereby warding off catabolism.
So that my friend is recovery in a nutshell
I noticed that you make no reference to how long or short the cycle is......also you make no reference to types of ass.so you think time on cycle and type of aas has no baring on whether some one should run hcg during last weeks of cycle or after......
 

needtogetas

Junior Member
needtogetas said:
I noticed that you make no reference to how long or short the cycle is......also you make no reference to types of ass.so you think time on cycle and type of aas has no baring on whether some one should run hcg during last weeks of cycle or after......
I also feel briging is a loud of crap.ether you are going to be on or off make your choce.you ether want to be on for life you you dont.
 

Rugger5

Junior Member
Problem with Sex Drive

I have completed my last cycle and I did my PCT with 10 days 500IUs of HCG. I also was taking Nolvadex during the 10 days. I am currently still doing Clomid ED 50mg to complete 6 weeks.

The problem is I have never felt like this after a cycle. I have no sex drive. It seems the balls dropped. But I am not so sure they are producing anything. I get a hard-on almost. In other words it is a soft one. But it will come up. But I can not climax at all. I just don't feel it.

What the heck is wrong now. I had no problems before. Anything to help bring the sex drive back and more importantly the climax back?

Thanks for any assistance gents,
 

dennis

Member
Re: Problem with Sex Drive

Rugger5 said:
I have completed my last cycle and I did my PCT with 10 days 500IUs of HCG. I also was taking Nolvadex during the 10 days. I am currently still doing Clomid ED 50mg to complete 6 weeks.

The problem is I have never felt like this after a cycle. I have no sex drive. It seems the balls dropped. But I am not so sure they are producing anything. I get a hard-on almost. In other words it is a soft one. But it will come up. But I can not climax at all. I just don't feel it.

What the heck is wrong now. I had no problems before. Anything to help bring the sex drive back and more importantly the climax back?

Thanks for any assistance gents,
What did you cycle and how much ?
 

Rugger5

Junior Member
My cycle was as follows:

Week 1 1000 mgs of test

Week 1 600mgs deca

Week 1-6 50 mgs Dbol ED

Week 2-10 750 mgs test

Week 2-9 400mgs deca
 

dennis

Member
Rugger5 said:
My cycle was as follows:

Week 1 1000 mgs of test

Week 1 600mgs deca

Week 1-6 50 mgs Dbol ED

Week 2-10 750 mgs test

Week 2-9 400mgs deca

Looks like a well planned cycle to me bro.I have no scientific explanation for you about your condition other than this same exact thing happend to me after my test/deca cycle.From start of pct untill about 30 days i could not maintain a decent erection and did not climax.The doc gave me some cialias to help with the erection.I ate lots of zma,tribulus,yohimbee and all my multis and kept lifting hard as hell.The sex drive slowly came back along with natural erections..took about 45 days for everything to come back to normal levels for my age(43)...hang in there.
 

Reinheart

Member
dennis said:
Looks like a well planned cycle to me bro.I have no scientific explanation for you about your condition other than this same exact thing happend to me after my test/deca cycle.From start of pct untill about 30 days i could not maintain a decent erection and did not climax.The doc gave me some cialias to help with the erection.I ate lots of zma,tribulus,yohimbee and all my multis and kept lifting hard as hell.The sex drive slowly came back along with natural erections..took about 45 days for everything to come back to normal levels for my age(43)...hang in there.

:eek: That's so fucked up bro.
 

dennis

Member
Reinheart said:
:eek: That's so fucked up bro.
Yes it was Rein.....it was like i had no sensation at the head if you know what i mean.I talked to many vets about it and got no really good answer to why this was happening..other than it had happened to other vets too.I went to see my doc about it..he said it was all in my head..he did ask me if I was taking steroids..i denied that of course..he ordered blood work and everything was fine.he also mentioned the idea of putting me on low dose of test >>>>i told him I was not interested in that ! But you young guys need to remember this..you have great libido when you are young..erections and multi climax is a daily thing for you..wait till you hit 40..it does start to change.:mad:
 
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