Program thoughts?

Discussion in 'Training Forum' started by cfreetenor, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    Mid 20s
    195#, 12-16% bf (very rarely outside this range)
    200/265/~315/405 (straps)
    1.5 years of continuous training

    I built a program with the goals of strength and size. I plan to eat enough to weigh 220# by spring, aiming for 250+ G protein ED.

    I will not be on cycle for this program.

    I ran a novice linear progression a year ago and then fucked around. There is a lot left I can get out of that kind of programming if I eat enough. All of the 3x5 lifts are modeled that way, with 5lbs to the squat every reoccurrence and 2.5lbs to the bench, 5-10 (weekly) lbs to deadlift, 2-5lbs to rows.. something like that. Once I hit the limits for those I’ll reprogram for a weekly progression. Probably within a month.


    Squat 3x5
    Bench 3x5
    Deadlift 1x5


    Pyramid biceps curls (20,15,12,10,8,10,12..)
    Chins (30 total, at least 10 reps in a row)
    Weighted Dips 2x12
    Seated cable rows 3x10


    Squat 3x5
    OHP 3x5
    Power cleans 5x3
    Back extensions weighted 2-3x12
    Oblique extensions 2(for each side)x12

    Muay Thai class for 1.5 hours


    Biceps curl pyramid
    Cable upright rows 3x12
    DB lateral raises 3x10
    Rear delt flies 2x12


    Squats 3x5
    Bench 3x5
    Supine pendlay rows 3x5
    Prone seated cable rows 3x10


    Ab work

    Sunday off

    One question I also want to ask. I have some pain around my upper traps, it feels like I pulled something doing rack pulls a couple weeks ago. I’ve been getting a lot of headaches and it makes me need to use the pad when squatting. Anyone familiar with this and have a solution?
  2. tengtren

    tengtren Member

    I don't have anything to say for the program but your neck pain I recommend you get chiropractic and deep tissue work done. Make sure you tell them about this
  3. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    I was worried i would need a professional.

    I will get it looked at. One thing that helps for now is pushing my shoulders down. Almost like my traps stay too tight reflexively.

    Thanks brother.
  4. You are better of trying a program made from experts than trying to
    'brew' something of your own at the stage you are. One and a half year is quite young for someone in the gym to design their own programs. It takes a lot of experience under the bar and a lot of reading to try something that really works from you, for you.

    As far as the program is concerned it looks way too much from my experience. Given that you also take Muay Thai lessons I don't know if you will recover adequately. If you decide to stick with it, only trial and error will help you optimize it.
    Uttukuxul, brutus79 and Perrin Aybara like this.
  5. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    The best shape I was ever in was when I took Muay Thai 2-3 times a week and went to the gym 4-5 times a week while eating a lot. The only problem was I was losing weight pretty rapidly. I figure I can handle the load.

    I am hoping that the lightness of Thursday and quick recovery from ab work on saturdays effectively gives me 3 mostly “off” to recover.

    I start it today. I’ll keep updates on how it goes.
  6. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    OH! I should also say that as for the ‘skeleton’ of the program, which is essentially the SS linear progression, I’m going to do the same first day protocol that is suggested for that program for all of the lifts I’m doing for 5 reps - which means essentially I will start at whatever weight the bar slows down noticeably. This means the starting weight will be a fair bit below my maximal working sets, and I don’t intend to run this program for too long as I wouldn’t be able to anyway.

    I do think that another 15 pounds on my bench is likely if I eat well, and 20 or 25 is possible. This is why I’m benching twice a week instead of just alternating with OhP, given my press PR is 200 and I could hit 185 for a single any given day I should be benching a lot more, which tells me I’m going to get a lot out of increasing my body weight.
  7. Perrin Aybara

    Perrin Aybara Member

    You should really leave out all the extra. I've been where you are and thought more was better and I did make some progress, but once I eliminated the unnecessary elements and followed a real program my numbers went up much faster.
    Johnny442 and Eman like this.
  8. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    I feel like I’m limited by some factors that aren’t really adequately addressed in the basic program. Forearm strength, for example. My front delts are also extremely overdeveloped in comparison to my rear and medial delts, as they tend to be, and I’ve already gotten a much more natural and comfortable press by working them separately.

    I also notice immediate improvement in my squat and deadlift when I include core work, just something simple.

    I already got to the point where I couldn’t make the numbers go up anymore despite what I ate, and I have trouble believing there aren’t some more easy gains if I correct for some things. I feel really good about this actually, for a 2-3 month program. But like I said I’ll keep updates!!
  9. Eman

    Eman Member

    You're doing too much.

    I would cut out Wednesday entirely if you want to do muay thai.

    I would spread your base lifts out across the week instead of doing them all on Monday and then again throughout the week.

    4 days of lifting, plus one day of muay thai is more reasonable.
    Uttukuxul and Perrin Aybara like this.
  10. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    Well I don’t want to miss out on the added ab work. If I’m dragging ass by the end of the week, I will cut out the squats, find another place for the OHP, and do cleans instead of pendlay rows on Friday. That just leaves some minor core work on the same day as Muay Thai which is actually a pretty good warm up - does that sound reasonable?

    To put things in perspective, I stopped today where the bar slowed down at all. So I’m starting at a 185x5x3 squat, a 175x5x3 bench and a 285x5 deadlift.

    ETA: I appreciate the feedback!!!
  11. Eman

    Eman Member

    You could do a light warmup drill that involves abs, but I wouldn't do anything further than that.

    You don't need hang cleans.

    You need more food.
    cfreetenor likes this.
  12. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    I don’t mean to sound like I’m asking for advice and disregarding it. Truthfully I somewhat expect this program to be too much, I just want to see if I can eat through it. I have a good hunch that I can make some success that way.
    If I take the compounds out of Wednesday that would just leave six total sets comprised of back extensions and side bends, maybe holding 30-45 pounds which are basically nothing.

    The cleans I could probably leave out, I’d probably have better progress on them just getting stronger and testing them out once in a while.

    Definitely on the same page with the food.
  13. Eman

    Eman Member

    I'm not saying you shouldn't ever do them... I just think you should surpass the technical aspect of the deadlift, squat and bench. At your bodyweight, and the numbers you're achieving, I don't think you're there yet.

    Best of luck.
  14. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    I just read today to focus on the ceiling instead of the bar when I bench, and act like there’s a tennis ball under my chin when I squat. Never could bring myself to pay someone to teach me how to move a bar.
  15. Eman

    Eman Member

    The bench cue is pretty good, the squat cue might be okay for some people but not necessarily everyone. There is an old trick to actually put a towel under your chin for deadlifts.
  16. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    Keeping my chin tucked is probably the cue I need for all 3, that’s what’s helping the most for the trap pain.

    I heard top of the head and back hole both pointed at opposite sides of the room for deads at the bottom.
  17. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    I decided to add neck curls on a hunch, and they are by far the best thing I have tried so far to alleviate the trap pain I was talking about.
  18. cfreetenor

    cfreetenor Member

    I feel good so far, a couple more thoughts on the way I formatted this program.

    Once I get back into the ranges I was hitting at RPE 8+ for the major compounds, I tried to make it easy to strip some volume off. I aim to sort of make a peaking program out of this based on when I get diminishing returns on food and sleep in terms of recovery needs.

    I do have goals outside of strength, in order they would probably be:

    Conditioning, cardio
    Body comp

    On the compounds, I’ve chosen the highest weights I can perform explosively without any significant slow down of the bar speed. It’s going to be my goal to maintain that explosion as I go up in weight.
  19. brutus79

    brutus79 Member

    You might not mean to sound like you are asking for advice and disregarding it but that is EXACTLY what you are doing. The programming is way too much and way too ambitious. You could eliminate Wednesday and Thursday and just to MT for the 1.5 hours with stretching and foam rolling and you would have way more progress guaranteed.

    It's like you want to get bigger, smaller, faster, stronger, taller, shorter, smarter and do it all in one program.

    I promise- and I speak from extensive injury experience from doing this exact same thing of trying to create the ultimate program that does everything on every day so I don't even miss my eyebrow muscles- this is going to end badly. Torn pec, torn rotator cuff, torn tendon in the knee... your body will betray you. Gear might help for a bit but your muscle will pass your tendon strength and you would just get hurt quicker so it doesn't matter what you run.

    My issues started with pretty bad neck pain that originated in my traps. Migraines, chiropractors, etc.... you start to compensate and you get fucked up. You barely have a base. Rest, food and sleep are essential. Even without the muy thai I would still recommend turning those days into light duty days. With it? No prayer.

    Don't bother trying to convince me how you have tried this and that and this is perfect. You are in pain, piling two programs worth of work together and you want a meathead to tell you to add more cleans. Slow your roll. Or..... have a lot more time free on meso when you could have been in the gym if you listened.
  20. Demondosage

    Demondosage Member

    Too much compound work, you'll never recover with max weights used that often, and the majority of guy ON GEAR wouldn't let alone being off it.

    Also, gains are great but if you're not in the hormonal environment to utilize that extra food for growth you're going to get fat blowing up to 225 by spring. Just don't fool yourself and focus on the scale too much, I used to do this and I ended up with a fat 260 lbs I had to trim 40 lbs away from to look halfway decent
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