Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) diet?

Discussion in 'Nutrition / Supplements Forum' started by Structure, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. Structure

    Structure Member

    Jenkins DJ, Wong JM, Kendall CW, Esfahani A, Ng VW, Leong TC, Faulkner DA, Vidgen E, Greaves KA, Paul G, Singer W. The effect of a plant-based low-carbohydrate ("Eco-Atkins") diet on body weight and blood lipid concentrations in hyperlipidemic subjects. Arch Intern Med. 2009 Jun 8;169(11):1046-54.

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND: Low-carbohydrate, high-animal protein diets, which are advocated for weight loss, may not promote the desired reduction in low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C) concentration. The effect of exchanging the animal proteins and fats for those of vegetable origin has not been tested. Our objective was to determine the effect on weight loss and LDL-C concentration of a low-carbohydrate diet high in vegetable proteins from gluten, soy, nuts, fruits, vegetables, cereals, and vegetable oils compared with a high-carbohydrate diet based on low-fat dairy and whole grain products.

    METHODS: A total of 47 overweight hyperlipidemic men and women consumed either (1) a low-carbohydrate (26% of total calories), high-vegetable protein (31% from gluten, soy, nuts, fruit, vegetables, and cereals), and vegetable oil (43%) plant-based diet or (2) a high-carbohydrate lacto-ovo vegetarian diet (58% carbohydrate, 16% protein, and 25% fat) for 4 weeks each in a parallel study design. The study food was provided at 60% of calorie requirements.

    RESULTS: Of the 47 subjects, 44 (94%) (test, n = 22 [92%]; control, n = 22 [96%]) completed the study. Weight loss was similar for both diets (approximately 4.0 kg). However, reductions in LDL-C concentration and total cholesterol-HDL-C and apolipoprotein B-apolipoprotein AI ratios were greater for the low-carbohydrate compared with the high-carbohydrate diet (-8.1% [P = .002], -8.7% [P = .004], and -9.6% [P = .001], respectively). Reductions in systolic and diastolic blood pressure were also seen (-1.9% [P = .052] and -2.4% [P = .02], respectively).

    CONCLUSION: A low-carbohydrate plant-based diet has lipid-lowering advantages over a high-carbohydrate, low-fat weight-loss diet in improving heart disease risk factors not seen with conventional low-fat diets with animal products.
     
  2. zkt

    zkt Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    While the study is interesting it would have been a lot more relavent to the situation if they had kept CHO more similar and varied the source of SF as animal vs veg. I am considering veg rather than animal fats for the SF content.
    Did you give that HDL video a gander yet?
    As an aside, we have never consumed much sugar and the only simple CHO was multigrain bread and brown rice, so eliminating them hasnt been much of a problem and have substituted sauteed vegs with MCT oil for lunch and dinner. Breakfast is usually oats and flaxseed based cereal with protein powder and yogurt. Working on cataloging the W3,6,9 intake and adjusting for optimization.
    IMHO, we, the Atkins and Paleo folk are the tip of the iceberg of a mass movement which is fed up with the disease producing manufactured foods that have been crammed down our throats for too many years.
    Sign ya up?
     
  3. LW64

    LW64 Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    A diet that has 26% of its calories from carbs is NOT a low-carb diet. About 5 to 10 percent is more like it, so they're not even close.

    Also, the predominant fatty acid in vegetable matter is linoleic acid (O6), so you're right back to ingesting too much PUFA on this kind of diet. I.e., you're wandering too far away from the kind of diet we are best adapted to eat as a result of the way we evolved. I havent checked, but I dont believe its mathematically possible to get SFAs from vegetable matter AND keep your PUFA intake below 5%. At the very least, I imagine it could be quite difficult.
     
  4. zkt

    zkt Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Well that was to be my next line of investignation. You are probbaly right- seems to be so far. :)
    Red palm oil seems to have a lot of SF but havent looked ay the other parameters(W3,6) yet.

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_oil"]Palm oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:palm_oil_Ghana.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Palm_oil_Ghana.jpg/220px-Palm_oil_Ghana.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/ce/Palm_oil_Ghana.jpg/220px-Palm_oil_Ghana.jpg[/ame]

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    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
  5. Structure

    Structure Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    I'd also be interested in seeing how a very-low carb vegetarian diet would compare with an ordinary meat-based low carb diet. The part I found interesting was that, despite the study's shortcomings, the expected health benefits from low-carb dieting are showing up. This seems to lend credibility to the theory that the primary determinant of the benefits of the Atkins diet is its ketogenicity (as opposed to the diet being animal-protein based). Certainly warrants further exploration, IMO.

    I did take a look at that slideshow (Lustig's pdf). The chemistry is certainly impressive, but since I've never studied these reactions in detail, I can't really conclude much one way or the other. Lustig himself seems to argue that obesity is the problem, and opens the door to various explanations as to what causes the obesity. I have often wondered why it is that people don't just eat less and exercise more when their BMI starts going up. Your atherosclerosis is not BMI related, so I can see why you are less interested in metabolic syndrome, and are more interested in the other aspects of CVD. I, on the other hand, do have a family history of metabolic syndrome. My father has type II diabetes, both of my parents are obese, and my paternal grandfather died from type II diabetes-related complications. I have long wondered how my family would fare if they would just eat less and exercise more... So far, I seem to have avoided the family curse. (Knock on wood)

    However, I'm sure you believe me when I say that if my BMI started creeping upward, I'd move heaven and earth to make sure it came back down.
     
  6. cvictorg

    cvictorg Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Have you seen his video

    Sugar:The Bitter Truth

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM]YouTube - Sugar: The Bitter Truth[/ame]
     
  7. Structure

    Structure Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Yes. I have no argument with Lustig, or his theories. He acknowledges that we are all too fat, and that we are eating too many calories ("sure enough we are all eating more now than we did 20 years ago.").

    Both Lustig and I think that people should avoid all low glycemic foods because of the insulin response they induce (including all sugars, both monosaccharides and disaccharides). I say the only time one should consume a high glycemic food is when you've just worked out. Even then, I think fructose should be avoided. Oddly, I didn't come to this conclusion because of the reasons outlined by Lustig (he knows way more about the metabolism of fructose than I do), it was because I knew that people have a natural intolerance of fructose when given in large enough amounts; more than 50g of fructose, and you're going to have gastrointestinal problems and malabsorption. Better to go with simple starches after working out.

    Do I believe Lustig has nailed it with his theories regarding HFCS? Honestly, I don't know. However, there's more than one road leading to Rome; Lustig and I both want the same thing: to avoid low glycemic foods because of the insulin response they induce, and we both think that there is no excuse to consume fructose in significant amounts. Thus, even though I don't know if he is technically correct, I still say: more power to him.
     
  8. Structure

    Structure Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    You guys will get a kick out of this clip. Wait for the punchline at the end; it will make it all worth it.

    [ame="http://www.hulu.com/watch/223360/saturday-night-live-corn-syrup-commercial#s-p1-sr-i3"]Hulu - Saturday Night Live: Corn Syrup Commercial@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.hulu.com/embed/EHel5e5VyUxFhH7osCb1Hg@@AMEPARAM@@EHel5e5VyUxFhH7osCb1Hg[/ame]

    Enjoy
     
  9. LW64

    LW64 Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    There is no ketogenicity to a diet that gets 26% of it's calories from carbohydrates! Apart from maybe going into ketosis when you sleep (which can happen to almost everyone, even when they get 45% of their calories from carbs), you will not go into ketosis with that level of carb intake. Period.

    The benefits seen are simply coming from two unavoidable results:

    [1] the participants lowered their carbohydrate intake when compared to how they were eating prior to the study, and

    [2] They were ingesting lots of O6, which we've known for a long time can reduce your LDL.

    However, long-term ingestion of high levels of O6 is not a good idea due to the inflammatory effects.

    Many, many people do just that and the net effect they see is insigficant weight loss. Homeostasis is a bitch. You excercise more and your appetite goes up! So, if eating less and excercising more doesnt effect significant weight loss, then maybe eating too much and excercising too little is NOT the cause of weight gain - -they are merely associations. They correlate with weight gain but, as you know, correlation is not causality.

    Here I will steal two examples I've read from Taubes:

    [1] If you ask me why someone is an alcoholic and I say "Because they drink too much", have I answered your question?

    [2] When teenagers are in their growth phase, they are typically eating everything in sight. Are they growing because they're eating too much or are they eating too much because they're growing? Growth hormones, right? Well, why cant there be an analogous explanation when we 'grow' horizontally?

    Eating too much and excercising too little may be the EFFECTS, not the cause, of weight gain. The CAUSE is the hormonal shift toward fat storage that takes place when carbohydrates dis-regulate our fat accumulation. When that happens, your caloric intake is getting preferentially shuttled to the fat cells and the rest of you doesnt get the nutrients it needs, so your appetite goes up and you eat more and then the cycle repeats. In the meantime, you lose interest in excercising because your metabolism is being down-regulated (homeostasis) to compensate for your body's 'sense' that it isnt getting enough overall intake.

    So:

    You're NOT getting fat because you eat too much

    You're eating too much because you're getting fat.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  10. Structure

    Structure Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    This may be true, it may not be. Certainly I'd love to see another study with lower carbohydrate intake. You'll notice that I didn't conclude that they've proven their point; rather I say it hints at the possibility. I think it deserves further study.

    Point 1 is similar to what the authors intend to prove: that you can get the benefits of a low-carb diet even when the low-carb diet does not rely on animal products.

    Yet others do it and succeed. I haven't missed Taubes point about the weight problem being the result of a hormonal imbalance. He's not the first to bring up this point, and I think it is a valid point. However, there's free will to consider: even if your instincts (i.e. your hormones, your chemistry, etc.) are driving you to eat, you can still choose to not eat. Matter cannot be created or destroyed; the calories have to come from somewhere. Even people with terrible hormone imbalances can lose weight by choosing not to eat. It's just a whole lot harder for them.

    The point I was trying to make is that if I saw myself getting fatter, I'd eat less. Maybe I just take my health more seriously than the average person, but that is the point I was trying to make. I know that not everyone is the same, but I still get shocked when I see people throw their health away. Its true that it is unfair how society treats fat people, and it is true how it is unfair that their hormones make it unreasonably difficult to overcome it by will, but it is not impossible. I once gave up solid food for about a month (an elimination diet) and survived on powdered amino acids, sugar, and water. It was repulsive. But I still did it because I thought my health was at stake. Some people with severe ulcerative colitis have to do this just to survive. They don't have the option to cheat on their diets, so they don't. I still think that people take the consequences of overeating too lightly, and they just get in the habit of failing in their diets. Eventually, they get the news that they have diabetes. "But its not my fault." This is what I hear from my parents. Maybe not, but you can still do something about it, no matter how hard it is.


    Again, the point about fatness being an effect as opposed to a cause is not lost on me. But my points above are still valid. Everyone has a cross to bear, and it's not fair, but you just have to do what you have to do.

    I've been getting a bit off topic in this post (the topic being the ketogenic diet) because although the Atkins philosophy has been around for 40+ years, it wasn't what it is today until the last decade or so. The reason that I'm talking about weight loss as a matter of will power is because I watched my own parents destroy their health. It would have been great if they knew about the Atkins diet decades ago, but to be honest, I don't that think they have the discipline to not eat carbohydrates. After all, my dad's doctor is always telling him to cut out the carbs. "But I like bread" is what he tells me. Its like he just doesn't care. That's the part that blows my mind, that's what motivated my previous post.
     
  11. LW64

    LW64 Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Understood.

    I would say the people who are successful in the way you mention are because they've cut their carb intake - even as part of a low-fat diet it's just about impossible to not do that. What's interesting, funny, and a bit sad is that (AFAIK), no study has been done to look at that. Everyone assumes it's the calorie reduction, even though the one macronutrient that's been cut the most will very likely be the carbs.

    The only point I'd add is that applying willpower and dealing with cravings are different than dealing with hunger. You have a chance with the former, you'll almost always lose with the latter. This may be one reason why people who have strruggled with low-fat diets all their lives feel so liberated when they finally get around to trying low-carb,

    It's interesting you mentioned your parents. My father went on this way of eating when he saw how it helped my lipids, BP, etc., and now he's getting the same benefits. He also likes bread a lot, but probably likes sugar even more. I have to remind him often that nobody is going to starve by eliminating those two from their diet and the best way to overcome the temptation is to have them every now and then. So far, it seems to work; for him and me.
     
  12. zkt

    zkt Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    We here have found that the MCT oil replaces bread and rice, the only simple carbs we previously ate, quite nicely. But I can see how some people can almost get addicted to the sugar/simple carb rush, as it were. That could be hard to overcome for some.
    Stevia works well to replace sugar in the morning mocha too btw.
    The issue of inflammation is still of central concern to me.
    I`m really glad to see your input on this matter Structure, hope you stay tuned.
    I am spending my time looking for legitimite studies re inflammation in general and dietary influences in particular.
     
  13. cvictorg

    cvictorg Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Download this paper and look for the section on antinutrient content and inflammatory control - sb page 22

    The western diet and lifestyle and diseases of civilization

    The western diet and lifestyle and diseases of civilization
     
  14. zkt

    zkt Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d


    I dont mean to minimize the paper, I read the part you mentioned and it certainly has merit.
    But it is a meta-study. Meta-studys are very subject to bias. In all honesty they are usually published in to support a particular viewpoint. he first place.
    i would rather achieve an understanding of the science, read the research papers and make up my own mind.
    Dont misconstrue this comment as negation- keep em coming. Big audience out here.
    :tiphat
     
  15. cvictorg

    cvictorg Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Unsaturated fatty acids are inversely associated a... [Clin Chim Acta. 2010] - PubMed result

    Unsaturated fatty acids are inversely associated and n-6/n-3 ratios are positively related to inflammation and coagulation markers in plasma of apparently healthy adults.
    Kalogeropoulos N, Panagiotakos DB, Pitsavos C, Chrysohoou C, Rousinou G, Toutouza M, Stefanadis C.

    Department of Nutrition Science - Dietetics, Harokopio University, Athens, Greece. nickal@hua.gr

    Abstract

    BACKGROUND: Blood lipids and inflammatory markers levels have been associated with the development and progression of atherosclerosis. As the association of inflammatory markers with plasma fatty acids has not been extensively evaluated and understood, we sought to investigate the associations between dietary and plasma fatty acids with various inflammation and coagulation markers.

    METHODS: High sensitivity C-reactive protein (hsCRP), interleukin-6 (IL-6), tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha), fibrinogen, and homocysteine were measured in serum of 374 free-living, healthy men and women, randomly selected from the ATTICA's study database. Total plasma fatty acids were determined by gas chromatography. Dietary fatty acids were assessed through a semi-quantitative FFQ.

    RESULTS: Multi-adjusted regression analyses revealed that plasma n-3 fatty acids were inversely associated with CRP, IL-6 and TNF-alpha; plasma n-6 fatty acids were inversely associated with CRP, IL-6 and fibrinogen; monounsaturated fatty acids were inversely associated with CRP and IL-6 (all p-values<0.05). Interestingly, the n-6/n-3 ratios exhibited the strongest positive correlations with all the markers studied. No associations were observed between dietary fatty acids and the investigated markers.

    CONCLUSIONS: Measurements of total plasma fatty acids could provide insights into the relationships between diet and atherosclerotic disease. Moreover, the n-6/n-3 ratio may constitute a predictor of low-grade inflammation and coagulation.
     
  16. cvictorg

    cvictorg Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...30a.pdf&code=ae524c0a0ba2caca8eb4aa14d4bda045
    n-3 Fatty acids prevent whereas trans-fatty acids induce vascular
    in?ammation and sudden cardiac death


    Omega fatty acids and resolution of inflammation: A new twist in an old tale
    Omega fatty acids and resolution of inflammation: A new twist in an old tale

    Pathophysiology and Evolutionary Aspects of Dietary Fats and Long-Chain Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids across the Life Cycle - Fat Detection - NCBI Bookshelf
    Pathophysiology and Evolutionary Aspects of Dietary Fats and Long-Chain Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids across the Life Cycle

    http://www.healthwiseonline.com/pdf/stuart_tomc_nordic_naturals_new_twist.pdf
    Polyunsaturated fatty acids and in?ammatory processes: New twists in an old tale

    Elsevier
    Dietary docosahexaenoic and eicosapentaenoic acid: Emerging mediators of inflammation

    http://journals.cambridge.org/downl...20a.pdf&code=e9ac360d72ff54db5367dab8427fc72d
    Dietary modification of inflammation with lipids

    Saturated Fatty Acid-Mediated Inflammation and Insulin Resistance in Adipose Tissue: Mechanisms of Action and Implications
    Saturated Fatty Acid-Mediated Inflammation and Insulin Resistance in Adipose Tissue: Mechanisms of Action and Implications
     
  17. cvictorg

    cvictorg Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Fatty acids and postprandial inflammation : Current Opinion in Clinical Nutrition & Metabolic Care
    Fatty acids and postprandial inflammation

    Fish Consumption Among Healthy Adults Is Associated With Decreased Levels of Inflammatory Markers Related to Cardiovascular Disease: The ATTICA Study -- Zampelas et al. 46 (1): 120 -- Journal of the American College of Cardiology
    Fish Consumption Among Healthy Adults Is Associated With Decreased Levels of Inflammatory Markers Related to Cardiovascular Disease

    daily consumption of 0.6 g of omega-3 fatty acids seems to be the optimal level that is associated with the maximum reduction in inflammatory markers levels.

    http://www.thorne.com/media/alterna...1996/Volume_1/Number_3/Fatty_Acid_Balance.pdf

    http://jhs.pharm.or.jp/data/56(5)/56_473.pdf

    http://can.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__9592280.pdf
    Dietary Fatty Acids, Hemostasis, and Cardiovascular Disease Risk

    PUFAs Review References

    The Tsim Tsoum Approaches for Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease
    The Tsim Tsoum Approaches for Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease
     
  18. Structure

    Structure Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Likewise. Plenty of food for thought (no pun intended). There certainly is plenty of information to sort out...

    Here's a link to an interesting interview with Taubes: CNN.com - Transcripts
     
  19. zkt

    zkt Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    Be careful what you wish for- you might get it, eh?
    I`m readin, I`m readin
     
  20. cvictorg

    cvictorg Member

    Re: Study: Animal products necessary to reap the benefits of the ketogenic (Atkins) d

    The Importance of the Omega-6/Omega-3 Fatty Acid Ratio in Cardiovascular Disease and Other Chronic Diseases -- Simopoulos 233 (6): 674 -- Experimental Biology and Medicine

    The Importance of the Omega-6/Omega-3 Fatty Acid Ratio in Cardiovascular Disease and Other Chronic Diseases


    Both omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids influence gene expression. EPA and DHA have the most potent anti-inflammatory effects. Inflammation is at the base of many chronic diseases, including coronary heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, cancer, osteoporosis, mental health, dry eye disease and age-related macular degeneration. Dietary intake of omega-3 fatty acids may prevent the development of disease, particularly in persons with genetic variation, as for example in individuals with genetic variants at the 5-LO and the development of coronary heart disease.

    Chronic diseases are multigenic and multifactorial. It is quite possible that the therapeutic dose of omega-3 fatty acids will depend on the degree or severity of disease resulting from the genetic predisposition.

    In carrying out clinical intervention trials, it is essential to increase the omega-3 and decrease the omega-6 fatty acid intake in order to have a balanced omega-6 and omega-3 intake in the background diet. Both the dietary intake and plasma levels should be determined before and after the intervention study.