Supplement Overkill

Discussion in 'Nutrition / Supplements Forum' started by kendallkmw, May 27, 2018.

  1. kendallkmw

    kendallkmw Member

    I'm just tired of opening several bottles and taking a handful of stuff everyday. Am I just over doing it and wasting my money. I've been taking CLA, MCT, ZMA, Omega 3-6-9, Omega 3 Oil, L-Carnitine Tartrate, Magnesium Glycinate, Kre-Alkaylyn, BCAAs, protein, multivitamin, and protein. Think some of this stuff is probably just too much. Thoughts?
    Copperhead1965 likes this.
  2. Copperhead1965

    Copperhead1965 Junior Member

    Feel exactly the same. To much crap to even list. Personally I am going to try to reduce to the essentials. To much money and possibly even putting extra strain on the liver.
    kendallkmw likes this.
  3. Btcowboy

    Btcowboy Member

    I agree and have limited my supps to maybe 4 not including multi vitamins. I counted one day and was taking 90ish pills a day. Thays excessive and expensive.
    kendallkmw likes this.
  4. ickyrica

    ickyrica Member Supporter

    o_O wow
  5. Btcowboy

    Btcowboy Member

    I know was ridiculous to say the least
    ickyrica likes this.
  6. kendallkmw

    kendallkmw Member

    This is only a copy and paste a news feed that cane up today. I take no credit.

    For decades the vitamin industry has been promoting their products as generally good for health, and as a result 90% of the general public think taking vitamins is a good idea (although in the same survey 80% recognize that vitamins do not replace a healthful diet). A 2016 study found that 52% of the population take some form of supplementation. Use of multivitamins (MVI) did decrease a bit from 37% to 31% from 2000-2012.

    Still, that is a huge portion of the general population. The supplement industry continues to grow every year, reaching $36.1 billion a year in the US in 2017. How much health benefit are we getting from that $36.1 billion? A new meta-analysis suggests – not much if any at all, and maybe even some harm. The new study, published in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology, is a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials looking at a variety of vitamins, both multivitamins and specific vitamins, and their relationship to cardiovascular disease, stroke, and all-cause mortality. Because this is a recap of prior research, the results are not surprising to anyone familiar with that research.

    What they found is that:

    • Multivitamins, vitamins D, C, A, B6, E, calcium, β-carotene, zinc, iron, magnesium, and selenium had no benefit or harm for vascular disease or all-cause mortality.
    • Folic acid and B-complex (Folic acid, B6 and B12) reduced stroke risk
    • Antioxidants and niacin increased all-cause mortality.
    Or to show this visually:
    All of these findings were supported by moderate level evidence. The most dramatic result was the reduction in stroke risk by folic acid (20%), however there is an important caveat to this finding. These results were largely driven by CSPPT (China Stroke Primary Prevention Trial). In most areas China does not fortify any food with folic acid, and therefore the population may be generally deficient. This benefit, therefore, may not translate to Western countries with fortification.

    I have written about antioxidants before – the evidence shows that, not only are they of no routine benefit, they may cause harm by disrupting the natural mechanisms of internal homeostasis. The authors also note that while there was a clear benefit to folic acid, some studies show a potential increase in cancer risk (specifically prostate cancer, but this may extend to other cancers).

    There are limits to this data. The quality of evidence was mostly moderate. Also, one could argue that longer term studies and larger studies might detect a smaller benefit. However, this data does set limits on the magnitude of any possible remaining benefit. Further, the exact same argument can be made about potential harms.

    This meta-analysis is a good opportunity to step back and reconsider our basic approach to vitamins and supplements, in terms of both practical implications and underlying philosophy. In terms of philosophy, there are various assumptions (encouraged by the supplement industry, who stands to gain from these assumptions) that do not make sense when analyzed, and have not been supported by the evidence.

    The first is that vitamins are all good. This stems further from the more fundamental approach to nutrition that there are good foods you should eat and bad foods you should avoid. Vitamins, in this view, are healthful in-and-of themselves. This leads to two further beliefs: that if some is good, more is better, and that vitamins can do no harm. In this view there is little downside and no risk to taking vitamins “as insurance,” even if they are not strictly needed.

    This heavily marketed approach runs contrary to standard clinical logic, which recognizes that dose is everything, and all interventions should be looked at from the perspective of risk vs benefit.

    Every vitamin has a toxic dose. Further, there is likely a ceiling effect, meaning that there is a level of intake that is sufficient and anything beyond that is of no further benefit. In this view, maximal nutritional benefit comes from taking the appropriate amount of each vitamin, rather than simply taking more. Most vitamins do have a very large range over which they are essentially harmless, which creates the false impression that all vitamins are completely harmless. Some vitamins have a narrower range, and it is possible to experience toxic effects from routine supplementation, or even from an extreme diet. Vitamins A and B6 toxicity are not rare. I have diagnosed B6 toxicity myself, which can cause nerve damage. There is also good reason to conclude that large doses of antioxidants can be harmful, supported further by the current study.

    Aside from direct harm, there is the potential for even greater indirect harm. The $36 billion and growing supplement industry represents a massive opportunity cost for health care. Some people might forgo needed medications, or better nutrition, because they are spending some of their limited budget on vitamins and supplements they think will help them, but won’t.

    Further, there is the potential of using supplementation as an excuse for an otherwise poor diet. The evidence clearly shows that vitamins do not replace a well-rounded and nutritious diet.

    The bottom line message for the average person is this:

    There is essentially no benefit to routine supplementation, and there may be some risks. You are far better off saving your money, and spending it on fresh produce. Have a varied diet with plenty of fruits and vegetables and you are overwhelmingly likely to get all the nutrition you need.

    For those with special needs or if you have any questions, simply consult your physician. Targeted supplementation based on specific needs and measured blood levels is the way to go. You probably should be taking prenatal vitamins if you are trying to get pregnant, and should be under the care of an OB. If you are trying to reduce your stroke and vascular risk, again you should be doing this under the supervision of an appropriate physician. This may include folic acid supplementation.

    Also, while we are at it – do not believe supplement hype (antioxidant or otherwise), do not believe nutrition gurus, do not take megadoses, and there is no such thing as a “superfood.”
  7. CJames

    CJames Member

    Cla? Srsly?
  8. kendallkmw

    kendallkmw Member

    Started taking it a long time ago when I was trying to loose a serious amount of body fat and never stopped.
  9. CJames

    CJames Member

    Unfortunately, It does do nothing. You are wasting alot of money on things that you can get it from food. Save your money for food and gear.
    Dr JIM likes this.
  10. kendallkmw

    kendallkmw Member

    For the most part that's all I do now. For at the least week they've all just sat collecting dust. Im over it.
  11. Dr JIM

    Dr JIM Member

    Although manufacturers would argue more is better, its difficult if not impossible to locate scientific evidence you or anyone else benefits from dietary supplements, esp in the absence of an established deficiency.

    One possible exception, the use of protein supps on behalf of competitive athletes
    DrankSlangin and kendallkmw like this.
  12. kendallkmw

    kendallkmw Member

    I do take a prescribed Vitamin D at 50,000iu a week for a deficiency. Other than that I'm done with everything else except the Omega 3 oil.
  13. RThoads

    RThoads Member

    For everyone -- year round general health:
    A good multi (I use orange triad but only 4 pills a day spread out)
    High quality fish oil (I use Omegalyze as directed on the bottle)
    Vit-D3 (I use 5000iu ED)
    Superbio curcumin by LEF 1 ED
    Ubiquinol 100mg ED

    On cycle I recommend (if needed):
    European milk thistle (LEF)
    TUDCA (if harsh orals are being used)

    If your lipids are bad:
    Citrus bergamot
    Niacin (work up to 2 to 2.5g ED , I do it all at once before bed)
    Obviously diet plays a massive role here so that must be in check as well.

    For performance in the gym and gains:
    creatine monohydrate micronized
    kendallkmw likes this.
  14. Dr JIM

    Dr JIM Member

    Once again scientific evidence supporting this stuff is lacking.
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
    kendallkmw likes this.
  15. RThoads

    RThoads Member

    Maybe on some, but my blood work has shown excellent results.
    I would have to dig up the results but my LDL was something like 150+ and I got it down to something such as 70 (in the course of only 3 months) with the bergamot + Niacin (and a couple other minor additions such as olive leaf and policosanol) and avoided my MD recommending a statin.

    Research is not lacking on vitamins (they are indeed essential to life), NAC and TUDCA are used in clinics to treat the liver (NAC is without a doubt a precursor to endogenous glutathione production). Research has been done on the Omega-3 fatty acids DHA and EPA found in fish oil and there positive health effects. An understanding on CoQ10's role supports the benefits of ubiquinol. Many studies support the anti-inflammatory and other health benefits of curcumin.
    Finally, creatine is one of the most studied ergogenic aids of all time

    Not sure what more evidence you need.

    But obviously you are free to skip them all -- for myself, I will endure the small cost and roll the dice; if I am right then I enjoy great benifits at a low cost, but if I am wrong then I lost a little bit of money.

    Still better than being on statins or some of the other poisons big pharma pushes.
  16. kendallkmw

    kendallkmw Member

    Another story on my feed today. Can't make this shit up.

    Vitamin — the first four letters come from the Latin word for “life.” To sustain that, we need these organic compounds in small amounts, but it seems their purpose ends there.

    New research reaffirms the counterintuitive notion that vitamin and mineral supplements aren’t the magical panacea we’ve been led to believe. It’s something that researchers have been finding for years, and a meta-analysis, summarizing the findings of 179 individual studies, published on Monday in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology found that most common vitamins provide precisely zero benefit to those taking them.

    Non-vital Vitamins
    Specifically, the study concluded that multivitamins, as well as calcium, and vitamins C and D are essentially powerless. They do no harm, but they might as well be placebos. These findings run contrary to popular wisdom, which instructs us to load up on supplements to reduce the risk of heart disease, cancer and premature death.

    This isn’t the first time science has refuted vitamin worship. In 2013 a series of studiesin the Annals of Internal Medicine, collectively including hundreds of thousands of participants, concurred that vitamins do not lead to any boost in health. In fact, the studies found that beta-carotene, vitamin E and possibly high doses of vitamin A actually slightly increase mortality.

    The only supplement that may live up to its reputation, according to the new study, is folic acid. This, with or without vitamin B, may prevent cardiovascular disease and stroke.

    The tradition of using vitamins and minerals for nutrient deficiencies dates back to 1747, when the British naval surgeon James Lind treated scurvy with citrus fruit, rich in vitamin C. Physicians routinely make such prescriptions, though usually only in cases where the patient has a demonstrated deficiency of a particular vitamin or nutrient.

    Supplement Crazy
    In recent years, though, we’ve come to view supplements as the gateway to general health and longevity. A Gallup poll in 2013 showed that 50 percent of Americans regularly take vitamins or multivitamins.

    On the flip side, a comparison of Gallup polls in 1975 and 2016 reveals plunging public trust in the mainstream American medical system. This phenomenon may have contributed to the ascent of “natural” vitamin and mineral supplements.

    But it probably also stems from rampant marketing and advertising. Thanks to the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994, manufacturers don’t have to prove the to the Food and Drug Administration that their supplements work. They can claim their products work, though, as long as they keep it vague (“strengthens the body”) and don’t profess to truly treat anything.

    Call it a healthcare failure, call it a marketing miracle. Either way, call a doctor before you pop another vitamin. Odds are they’ll tell you to stick to fruits and veggies
  17. DrankSlangin

    DrankSlangin Member Supporter

    Try to get as much as you can with real food. Fruits and vegetables have tons of the micronutrients you are seeking from multivitamin pills, which aren’t fully absorbed by the body anyway. Don’t need BCAA supps, there are plenty in the proteins you eat throughout the day. Also plenty of BCAAs in your whey protein, which is a supplement you should have for immediate, fast acting protein to go with your simple carbs post workout. Maybe use some whey to flavor your oatmeal, but again get the vast majority of your micros and macros from real food.

    Creatine is also a supplement worth having in your arsenal. Fish oil if you don’t eat a lot of salmon, but you can get your omega-3s from seafood, eggs, hell even grass fed beef has omega-3s.

    I’m speaking in terms of nutrition only, certainly there are many supps that can be helpful with bad sides from whatever compounds you are running.
    kendallkmw and RThoads like this.
  18. RThoads

    RThoads Member

    The last place I will go for advice is an MD -- odds are not that they will tell you to stick with fruits and veggies (at none I have seen) but you will leave with a prescription (they are indoctrinated by the pharma industry which controls their education and they are lobbied by pharma reps who keep them "up to date" with "information").
  19. kendallkmw

    kendallkmw Member

    I use a high grade fish oil so I get that. Im going to stick with my multi. I take prescribed Vitamin D.

    And I'm well aware of big pharma. I've spent the last 4 years working for a company that wipes big pharma ass and the doctors they cater to.
    RThoads likes this.