Theory on testosterone and HCG bridging (Bill, Dr.Scally)

Discussion in 'Steroid Forum' started by Reinheart, Sep 14, 2011.

  1. Reinheart

    Reinheart Member

    If hcg works to help the HPTA keep producing an X amount of LH and FSH during a steroid cycle, can it be also be used at 250-300iu's e4d along with a low dose of testosterone (say 200-250mgs per week) as a bridge to the next cycle?

    Simply put, can someone blast and cruise without risking recovery too much? If yes, how long can someone do this for?

    Does HCG have to be used in the 6 weeks on/ two weeks off fashion at no more than 600iu's per week or it will cause the testes to desensitize or is it just bro talk?

    Thanks in advance!
     
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  2. heavyiron

    heavyiron Member

    hcg is kind of like administering LH. It doesn't really cause an LH signal, it is LH in a manner of speaking.

    Your HCG doses and frequency look good. I was on that protocol for years. LOL!
     
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  3. Reinheart

    Reinheart Member

    Thanks for the input bro! Did you ever do a proper pct after following this protocol for years or did you stay on TRT?
     
  4. heavyiron

    heavyiron Member

    I have done both but the PCT failed because I already had low T.
     
  5. Bill Roberts

    Bill Roberts Steroid Forum Leader

    Well, you can do that. The hcg dosage (250-300 IU every 4 days) comes out to an average of 437-525 IU per week, which is somewhat below what is the arbitrary minimum figure that I have of 700 IU per week. It's kind of on the low side. You could move it to 350 IU twice per week.

    There is no significant long term testicular desensitization issue with HCG when used to doses such as this or up to at least the 2000 IU/week level.

    The testosterone dosage is high enough that even without the HCG, the "bridge" is pretty much one never-ending steroid regimen so far as your hypothalamus and pituitary are concerned. Basically, the "off" periods are full-dosage TRT rather than being actually off. An average result for using 200 mg/week testosterone is two-thirds suppression of LH production.

    LH is likely to never recover on this program, if recovery is defined as re-attaining mid-normal production.
     
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  6. Reinheart

    Reinheart Member

    Excellent post! Thank you very much! You have been most helpful! What if I used a small dosage or aromasin all year long? I was thinking of doing 10mgs eod. If I can't be on TRT, at least I would like to keep my estrogen levels under control and optimize my testosterone production.

    Is this going to hammer my liver or cause any long term HPTA side effects?
     
    drowning likes this.
  7. heavyiron

    heavyiron Member

    Here is a cool study you can check out;

    This study demonstrates that around 300iu hcg every other day is needed to raise ITT levels to baseline while administering testosterone. That's 1,050iu HCG weekly.



    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression

    Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory, Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin and Jonathan P. Jarow
    Center for Research in Reproduction and Contraception, Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Veteran Affairs Puget Sound Health Care System (A.M.M.), and Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine (A.D.C., W.J.B., J.K.A., B.D.A., P.R.S.), Seattle, Washington 98195; Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University (K.L.H.), Los Angeles, California 90059; Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine (X.Y., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21287; and Division of Reproductive Biology, Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health (W.W.W., T.R.B., X.Y., B.R.Z., J.P.J.), Baltimore, Maryland 21205

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Andrea D. Coviello, Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Tarry 15-751, 303 East Chicago Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60611-3008. E-mail: a-coviello@northwestern.edu.

    In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

    full study;
    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
     
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  8. Jack Herer

    Jack Herer Junior Member

    Bill,

    when you say: LH is likely to never recover on this program, if recovery is defined as re-attaining mid-normal production

    you mean while he is still using exogenous testosterone at 200~250mg/week, right?

    For argument, if he stays on that bridge at 200mg/week for 1 year or more using hcg at 1000iu weekly (2 shots) to keep the testicles working.

    What if he tried to come off for good, after that time, is it likely that he ended up causing permanent damage to his hypothalamus and pituitary, meaning he would not have a normal, good production of LH, FSH? Can we say that hypothalamus and pituitary lose they capacity for production after a long time shutdown as the testicles when not on a hcg regimen?
     
  9. Bill Roberts

    Bill Roberts Steroid Forum Leader

    That wouldn't be a problem for the liver.

    It would be a good idea to measure blood level of estradiol after a couple of weeks of usage and adjust dose if necessary. Testing is not expensive.

    I would expect no adverse HPTA effect at all.
     
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  10. Bill Roberts

    Bill Roberts Steroid Forum Leader

    Yes.

    Probably not, if the duration is 1 year. Dr Scally could say better. My opinion is that all too often, in the absence of good advice users wind up resorting to lifetime full replacement of testosterone when their natural production probably could have been recovered. So the frequent outcome of users "having" to go on TRT doesn't actually show that it is so often actually required.

    I haven't for quite some time worked with anyone in that situation, but back when I did do so fairly often, no one ever failed to get their natural production back, assuming that they had good natural T in the first place prior to the steroid usage and this was not more than about 1 year in the past.

    Didn't ever have anyone who was suppressed for substantially more than 1 year and was looking to recover natural T production. So whether that can usually be done, I can't say from experience but no doubt Dr Scally can.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2011
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  11. Jack Herer

    Jack Herer Junior Member

    Thank you Bill!

    I still relatively young and not willing to go on TRT before I'm at least 35. For now I think I'm gonna keep my cycle protocol as you teach...ON for 8~10 weeks, OFF for 8~12 weeks, repeat. I'm in favor of using only quick esters like test prop, tren ace, masteron, and orals (not often).

    Bump for Dr.Scally answer, if possible.
    :)