Weird response to testosterone, feel better on HCG. Help, I need answers!

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by CVidrine, Jul 28, 2009.

  1. #1
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    Alright. I'm completely lost here and I need some answers.

    I'm 23 year old male and I have a testosterone level at around 200. I also have Addison's and high reverse t3.

    Androgel/Compounded testosterone gel makes me noticeably more lethargic, tired, and depressed. Depending on how much I take it can come close to making me cry for no reason whatsoever. It's a horrible experience and I don't know why it's causing it. I may also have this effect with shots to some extent.

    I took hcg for a month and I felt much better. A lot of low testosterone symptoms improved. I had blood work today so we'll see how much it raised my T levels.

    But why is testosterone causing such horrible results, while the HCG isn't? What is going on?
    Why is the T completely counterproductive and causing me to basically "crash" and feel horrible.

    BTW, I think I've started noticing a dramatic drop in Novarel potency near the end of the month... but at the start of the therapy I was waking up with a hard on every morning, which I haven't done in a long... long... time. Something I've never done on Androgel/shots.
     
  2. #2
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    I'd also like to add that I had this reaction on a larger scale with a Sustestryl (Sustanon) 250mg injection a couple months back on a larger scale. That time I literally broke down and cried. I was extremely depressed for absolutely no reason. It took a few days to wear off....

    I need to get to the bottom of this. Is it because my testosterone levels are "wild" and are swinging far too much?
     
  3. #3
    HeadDoc

    HeadDoc Psychologist; Super Moderator

    are you working with a doc who will work thru each of the hormonal systems and balance each in order?
     
  4. #4
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    Probably not but we'll know on the 6th when I go to see him.

    Who is hardasnails and is he an actual doctor? II've seen a few posts recommending him but I don't think my doctor will be qualified to handle my case. I've had to "experiment" with a few different meds to see which have worked and which haven't, but there's a lot going on which is pretty baffling.

    I have a suspicion that the doctor I'm going to see on the 6th is going to be very by the book. He was already extremely against T shots last time I brought it up, so I had to get the hcg from another Doc. Hopefully my current test results will show that I'm responding better to the HCG and he may reconsider but I don't know.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  5. #5
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    There's no question about it. Tried to wean myself onto yesterday/today Androgel and it made me extremely lethargic, tired, moody, weak, and I swear it is a complete reversal. Makes me want to slump my shoulders and curl up.

    It definitely has a noted, remarkably negative effect. Is this an estrogen problem? Am I converting all of my testosterone to estrogen? If so, what causes that? Is there a fix besides medication? Is there a way to be sure besides going on Androgel ... again and getting my blood tested?

    Why is the hcg working?

    I almost forgot to mention, I've had an enlarged prostate for the last couple of years. It's nonbacterial and non cancerous and the urologist doesn't really know what's going on. I've read that it's a symptom of high Estradiol levels?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2009
  6. #6
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    But also at the same time if it was really an estradiol problem would it really be so pronounced and immediate?

    I notice the negative reaction within less than 15 minutes with the gels, with the shot I felt good starting at around hour 1-3 after the shot by within 3-5 hours I started feeling REALLY bad.
     
  7. #7
    pcgizzmo

    pcgizzmo Junior Member

    My guess is you are not absorbing the T-Gel completely and your T levels are going even lower then they are. Possibly look at T injections. Also thyroid issues some say can cause the problem of not absorbing gels well.

    You need to get your Thyroid and Adrenal issues in order before you try and replace testosterone or you could have probelms. Do you really have full blow Addision's or just adrenal fatigue?
     
  8. #8
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    Full blown Addison's.

    I'm taking t3 and Cortef so they should be properly supported. The more testosterone I take, the worse I feel.

    5mg of Androgel makes me feel bad.
    10mg of Androgel makes me feel really bad.
    15mg of Androgel makes me feel horrendous.

    Testosterone shots make me feel the worst.
     
  9. #9
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    See what's weird about this is I do feel normal if I increase my cortef (cortisol) dose to 'stress dose' levels when I take the testosterone. People normally report a sense of wellbeing and energy following testosterone administration, maybe in normal people the testosterone reacts on the adrenal glands and gets them to produce extra cortisol and that may be responsible for the energy and wellbeing and in people with adrenal insufficiency the adrenal glands can't cope so the body can't handle it? I don't know... there's no literature on anything like that and it's pure speculation.

    Other than that it HAS to be that I'm converting far too much to estradiol? right?
     
  10. #10
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    Also of note, I have no problem getting/keeping it up when not on medication and my sex drive is pretty good.... but when I take the testosterone, I lose my sex drive.
     
  11. #11
    pcgizzmo

    pcgizzmo Junior Member

    Have you had your levels checked like for an average level daily?

    It's possible that when you add T your body will also need more Cortisol and this is why you feel bad. I can't point to this in any scientific study but I have known for a while that those with adrenal problems actually feel worse when adding T if their levels aren't correct.

    Is it possible that your levels just need to be a little higher than they are now?

    Paul
     
  12. #12
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    I don't think it's related to cortisol levels. I have to increase my dose to very high levels, stress dose = x3 so 90mg a day to feel normal again.

    Not only that but I'm absolutely positive the Androgel is making me feel more feminine. I like working out but loathe it after a packet of Androgel, I feel like curling up and I start noticing a lot of weird things like I find myself putting my hands backwards on my hip, or my toes curling up...

    I just took a shot of .3ml of 250mg Sustanon SubQ and so far I feel good. Dr. Shippen has a protocol where he says small doses of testosterone oils subq several times a week can minimize the estrogen effect... so we'll see how that goes.
     
  13. #13
    Dopamineloveaffair

    Dopamineloveaffair Junior Member

    There are two things that may be occuring. There is too much conversion of testosterone to estrogen causing the above symptoms, or the testosterone is reducing your adrenal function.

    Cortisol and DHEA levels tend to lower after testosterone replacement. You may need to supplement with pregnenolone and/or DHEA to circumvent this.

    The reason this may not happen with hcg is that it keeps adrenal function going by maintaining pregnenolone levels. DHEA and cortisol are both metabolites of pregnenolone.

    Therefore since this is only a testosterone related problem and not HCG and since you already have adrenal issue I'm thinking it may be the second scenario.

    I'd ask your doctor for a pregnenolone and DHEA work up to see where they're at.
     
  14. #14
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    I take DHEA 25mg daily. I notice a slight benefit in mood but it seems to have no effect on what I've been feeling.
     
  15. #15
    pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Junior Member

    I can tell you what I think your not getting your levels up on Androgel most of us don't do good on it it dose not get through the skin yet will make your Estradiol levels go up higher killing your wood and making you feel like you have PMS. Your doing good on Novarel so just keep doing this I would say do 100 IU's everyday. Or do Depo testosterone shots with your hcg I do a Testosterone shot every 3 days like Dr. Shippen does and I do HCG the 2 days each in between my T shots. I also take .25mgs of 1/4 of a pill of arimidex every 2 or 3 days to keep my Estradiol E2 levels down.

    Us men on TRT or HCG need to check E2 levels and keep them down to about 20 pg/ml or we feel dam bad like your feeling. When E2 goes up to high for me I get itchy between my little toe on my right foot odd I now but if I let this go I break out in hives and Rush's. Not in a big area but spotted then I lose wood and get some bad dam bad ED with I say wood I am talking about night time and morning wood for rem sleep. I gage my E2 levels by this wood if on arimidex and I lose it I know I am going to low so I just stop the Arimidex until the wood comes back that day I go back on it but do less. If I was taking it every 2 days I go to every 3 days. E2 never stays the same for me from month to month some times I need to take Arimidex .25 mgs everyday.

    As for novarel getting weak by the end of the month here is what I do about this and it happens I double my dose by the 25 th day and pitch it on the 30th day.
     
  16. #16
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    I don't know how many times I have to say it.

    I took a shot of 250mg of Sustanon yesterday and this is the WORST i've felt in months. I feel absolutely horrible. This morning I had trouble even picking up my arm, I felt like a ton of bricks, lost all motivation, and just felt extremely, extremely bad.

    The hcg made me feel good but the testosterone, whether transdermal or injection has been making it worse. And not just a little worse, it is making me feel like I'm dying.

    I had morning wood on HCG but never on testosterone. I can't get arimadex for a couple of weeks so I bought some Novedex XT, an OTC from GNC hoping that may help with what I suspect is my e2 levels.
     
  17. #17
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    My prostate also definitely worsened after this last shot.
     
  18. #18
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    I really need help. You guys are far more experienced with this than I am. Somebody has to be having the same effects that I am...

    What's also really weird is that I've lost my appetite since on the hcg and dropped a lot of weight.

    172 to 163 in 3 weeks. Well my appetite hasn't returned and I have to force myself to eat. This is also an indicator my adrenal dosage is too low, but even when I'm stress dosing 25mg of cortisol and 5mg of pred, I still have no appetite.

    And what the fuck, why do I feel so weak after this injection? If it was estrogen then why was I doing better on the HCG?

    Edit: Normally when not on any TRT, I have a LOT of body hair and I don't have a problem with my sex drive. Yet my test levels at 200 when I'm 23. So it's almost like I may be asymptomatic to some degree. When I first started taking testosterone, I felt better... and more active but that feeling has subsided with one of lethargy everytime I take it now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2009
  19. #19
    pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Junior Member

    That type of shot is not a good way to treat this and we in the USA don't Even use it. Try getting on the Gel they have over there Testogel I think the name of it is. You need to listen to me your taking this dam big shot and driving up your Estradiol levels high estradiol upset me so bad I get Panic attacks from it. You need to wait this out it will take a good week to lower your levels.

    Get on Testogel starting at 5 grams /day test again in 2 weeks to be sure it's working if not do 10 grams keep on eye on your Estradiol is your not getting night time or morning wood your levels are to high get them down when your wood comes back you at a good level.
     
  20. #20
    CVidrine

    CVidrine Junior Member

    So I should definitely try adex? Would you suspect that it's my e2 levels?

    I feel much better today, but I definitely don't feel like I took a test shot a couple days ago. I just feel less bad.
     

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