When can doctors refuse to treat?

Discussion in 'Men's Health Forum' started by Michael Scally MD, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. Michael Scally MD

    Michael Scally MD Doctor of Medicine

    Not so conscientious objection: When can doctors refuse to treat?
    Not so conscientious objection: When can doctors refuse to treat? - STAT

    In overturning the Trump administration’s attempt to expand the so-called conscience rule for health care workers this week, a federal judge has brought renewed attention to a long-simmering debate in medicine over when doctors can decline to provide treatment to patients without abdicating their professional responsibilities.

    The revised rule, issued last spring by the Department of Health and Human Services, was aimed at protecting doctors, nurses, and others from, in the words of HHS, being “bullied out of the health care field” for refusing to participate in abortions, gender reassignment surgery, or other medical procedures based on religious beliefs or conscience. Critics of the rule charge that it would enable discrimination by allowing providers to deny health care to certain patients, particularly women and LGBTQ+ individuals.

    U.S. District Judge Paul Engelmayer ruled that HHS overstepped its authority, though the rule sought to “recognize and protect undeniably important rights.” But what are those rights, and in what circumstances can physicians ethically withhold treatment that a patient wants?

    There are three general contexts in which it is permissible and sometimes obligatory to refuse care: when doctors are subjected to abusive treatment, when the treatment requested is outside a doctor’s scope of practice, or when providing the requested treatment would otherwise violate one’s duties as a physician, such as the Hippocratic mandate to “first do no harm.” But none of these rationales can justify physicians denying care based on their personal beliefs.
  2. Soren

    Soren Member

    At this point healthcare has much bigger problems then worrying about abortion. The religious nutjobs have hijacked and diverted the attention away from what really matters.

    If Trump wants true freedom, he should allow everyone to customize their insurance and limit payout amounts. He should force hospitals and clinics to tell each patient what a procedure will cost up front, including drugs and labwork.

    If you could buy insurance policies that limit payouts to say $100,000. This would radically alter the landscape of insurance, bring cost down and force hospitals to accept this $100,000 and write off the rest in case of catastrophe. The greed of insurance and healthcare industry has to be eliminated, but of course these scumbags have lobbyists and lawyers to make sure americans keep getting screwed over.
    Fryguy likes this.
  3. Sworder

    Sworder Member

    Doctors and hospitals don't NEED to do many things. It is a business in a Capitalistic America. We do business better than anybody else. However, we don't treat people the best... Can't be the best at everything now... Eh.............

    There are some good Samaritan laws that you need to follow. But can you be punished if you suddenly get a massive headache and need to go home for the day?

    I would make a very strong argument that as a Doctor if you prescribe "gender reassignment" drugs that you are DOING HARM. The world is upside down, it's disgusting... Or maybe it is right side up, and I am the disgusting one... Damn...

    I reread the OP, it is all about money. They don't care about the persons at all. They are just figures in an equation. Those "people" represent something non-profitable and that's why everybody's panties are in a bunch.
    Old likes this.
  4. Soren

    Soren Member

    Capitalism is fine as long as it's a true free market and no predatory. So if the hospitals can charge astronomical amounts of money for their services, I should be able to walk away from paying the bill with no record of this having ever happened.

    It can't just work one way. If they feel they can charge whatever they want, I feel I can pay whatever I want.

    I'm simply asking for true freedom. Get the laws off the patients back. A provider can charge whatever they want, $1 million for a baby aspirin if they want, and I can pay them with the lent in my pocket that I value at $1million as well.

    This is the same for education. If people were dumb enough to hand over $50K for someone to go to school, then it's their problem and only the lenders problem when the borrower walks away, there should be no record of this as well.

    There should be no laws regarding credit scores, there should be no data ever collected in regards to credit ever. No one should be able to collect any data on you at all and share that information.

    What happens when you create an economy like this. People become much more cautious about who they lend money, who they provide services to. It becomes an more realistic picture of the value these services provide because it will be paid up front, perhaps collateral will be required.

    It's one thing to have a chest pain and go to the hospital and be told we need to admit you for observation and lots of tests and be handed a massive bill six weeks later, it's another if they tell you exactly what it will cost and that you will have to have 25% down before we can proceed. People will walk away and go home to either suffer or die. That's true capitalism.
    dd340 likes this.
  5. Sworder

    Sworder Member

    That's the problem with Capitalism, theoretically it may sound nice however in real life the powers at be won't let it happen.

    Here is my main issue:
    If I want to sell a product, I need to create a need for that product. If there is no need for my product, nobody will buy it. So, if I am selling testosterone or I can do this for anything, let's take lip gloss.

    So how am I going to sell my lip gloss? If nobody knew what lip gloss was and I was going to try to sell it. HOW?! Well, I will tell you how.

    First, I need to show that lips are important. I will put prominent and respected figures in the Mainstream with big lips. We have a natural tendency to look up to others and admire them. You can't escape that. So, after showing how great people are whom have big plump lips. I throw in my lip gloss after I established that these people are idolized. If a girl sees another woman that she respects wearing lip gloss and the portrayal of the lip gloss is something "sexy and attractive." I have won my battle.
    From there on out it is easy picking making money off these "fools" that think lip gloss is special. I created the idea that lip gloss is special so now these "idiots" buy my product and think it makes them look better. When in fact they have just been tricked into buying my product.. There was nothing special about the lip gloss in the first place.

    I can take another example, I can do this with anything. Kratom, I sell kratom and have been doing so for 8-10 years. Here is the thing, people want to be exclusive. They project their exclusivity onto the kratom and what do I do as a business owner?
    I give it to them! I make up "strains" which don't even exist in the first place to appease the customer. They want something more exclusive? I will raise the price with 30% and rename the "strain" and put "private reserve" or any term that will make my customers think they are getting something exclusive. Am I wrong for doing this? Is it correct to sit my customer down and explain to them how the world works and that there are no strains that they have been fooled and that the only reason things are exclusive is because they imagined it was. It is all marketing.

    Another example. What's your favorite fast food restaurant?
    McDonalds? In-N-Out? Chick-Fil-A?
    Okay good, let me preface this by saying. You don't know what tastes good. You don't have the slightest clue what good is, what bad is. McDonald's and the big corporations created an idea in your head about what "good" is. If you were born in the middle of no where and hadn't seen any modern civilization and then you stumbled across a "Big Mac." What do you think you would do with it?

    Anyway, you get my point. Also, I am speaking as if I know what good is. And I don't, all I know is that these corporations have projected images and ideas onto me.

    What is beautiful?
    Well, let's take prominent figures in our society(actors etc) and display them with an unnatural body. What will that do? It will make people strive for that body of course! But striving after a body that is photoshopped, surgically enhanced and hormonally enhanced seems pretty difficult if you don't have the same tools. And the proper tools aren't revealed. They just show you an image and then expect you to chase the dream. And you do! You chase the dream until it makes you depressed, and then you go to the Doctor, who has a pill for you. Don't worry insurance will cover it so you don't have to be "sick." And if the "medication" you got has some nasty side effects. FRET NOT! DOC HAS ANOTHER PILL ;)
    Disgusting cycle...

    Obviously you know why they do what they do. And it works. The healthcare sure as he!! are not complaining about it. It is the 95%+ of the people whom have to deal with the abuse that are complaining.

    If you were in total control over a country. Would you implement rules that favored you, or rules that didn't favor you? Or do you believe in the notion that the world is a just place and you should do what is "right?"

    You can get a false sense of freedom. That's basically what you have gotten. Get a politician to talk to you for an hour about if you are free or not and surely you will be convinced you are free. At least for the time you are talking to him or her.

    America, home of the free.. Statue of Liberty. Freedom of speech, freedom freedom. For a country that is so FUDGING FREE. They sure need to use that word a lot to prove that we are free...? Wait what..

    Woah! Who is dumb here? It is definitely NOT the people whom are lending the money. If you file for bankruptcy you can't wash away your student debt. Debt is for life baby!

    Btw, you do know that everybody needs to college right?
    If you don't go to college you won't have a good wife, you will have an ugly poor car, small house, crappy job. Your wife will be sucking her boss off during lunches because she can't stand being with a man that doesn't have a college degree... Etc etc. You see what I am doing.

    In today's society, we seem to NEED a lot. It confuses me though, am pretty happy with food in my belly, a running car, some good friends and shelter above my head. Wait do I even need a car? Oh yeah I do.. I need a lot..

    When you make the rules you can do as you please.

    Do you have an example of a country or an economy that has adopted capitalism to your liking?

    Anyway all this is IMO!
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  6. Soren

    Soren Member

    Sworder I'll I'm asking for is a system that isn't a system.

    I'll be honest, I consider myself an anarchist, but I'd accept a true libertarian system as a compromise.

    Here's the problem, healthcare has armies of lobbyists and lawyers, politicians are bought off. That's not true free market, that's cronyism.

    So what we have is a system where everything benefits the businesses that bought off politicians. When the people ask for a system that is at least open to debate, they are quickly ignored. I find it funny that the masses keep falling for this over and over. Granted you are free to go where you like, and I do believe that the right to be left alone is one of our greatest rights(of course we don't have the right or anything close to it in the USA).

    The proposal is that if you are brought into a hospital and you are charged for those services, it's a very simple request. You are told exactly what you will be changed for every service, your bill(menu) if you like will be drawn up and all costs will be outlined on this bill. You will be free to decline the offer or possibly allowed to modify your bill by picking and choosing what you want done. Of course we'd have to modify risks and liability to the care provider for your refusal of certain recommended services, which you could sign away the doctors liability.

    Ultimately we're talking about complete transparency.....something the medical establishment and insurance industry fights long and hard to deny the public.

    As for education, yes it's very important, but how you obtain that education, how you test your knowledge, who you can obtain this knowledge from, is all very much controlled by elites that state you "must" go through them to pass from A to B. If knowledge was really the point of education, then testing, both to prove your knowledge and an IQ test would be much more important then what is essentially what we have today, diplomas from schools sending signals to employers that you are invested in a certain field of work and you will be easily controlled by your future employer while you pay off student loan debt.

    And for the record I graduated from college 24 years ago and tuition back then was much cheaper then what it is today. I think it took me less then six months to pay off my education after I graduated, and I stayed in dorms for four years as well, all paid for with summer jobs.
  7. Sworder

    Sworder Member

    Yes, I know I can feel your frustration. That comment made me laugh out loud.

    I agree, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

    Trust me, the masses don't have a chance. People like me and you have lived a very different life than them. I have told you before that you are very fortunate to have the capacity to think in these ways even. The masses, they are working 9-9 7 days a week and barely making ends meet. They don't have the capacity or time to think like this.

    Also, if you would give me any child or animal I can program them to think or behave in any way you choose. Well some animals are exceptions, wolves are very difficult to condition. Lions are easier.

    Transparency yeah :) Would be nice huh?

    There are so many layers to the onion that needs to be peeled to even get to that point.

    I was thinking about this during my walk earlier.

    I don't know if I am for the current higher educational system.

    I was thinking about an alternative perhaps including that aptitude training would be completed after high school or maybe before. Then from there a person would choose their career path and an employer would take over the training and set up something beneficial for the worker. It is a very immature thought of mine and I usually don't share half baked thoughts.
    What I would like to accomplish with this type of alternative educational system would be more security for the employee. I can see negatives already for sure, it would almost be as if companies would own the entire person if that were to take place. Which I think can be good or bad. Depends on how we would regulate those types of contracts. I do not think it is alright that a company can hire a worker for 20 years and then fire them at any given point.

    Of course things were better back then. Things will only get worse too. Especially with all this new self learning AI and neural networks. Not to mention integrating computers into our bodies is coming too.

    Watch in a couple years you will see prominent figures in our society use biochips in their body which corporations can collect data from. And then there is going to be some great disaster that results from people not having these biochips and then regulations will be put in place that all citizens must have biochips. At that point I eat a slug from my shotgun, figuratively speaking. I will come back to this thread when all this happens :)

    All that data collection is extreme power. I don't think people realize how much power there is in data and algorithms. It worries me seeing what direction the world is heading!

    You said something to the effect that you didn't know how much longer you wanted to be in this country and I feel the same. I own a business so I can take advantage of the "great market" and make a very easy living for myself. But do I want to be in this country for the rest of my life?
    A country that is hellbent on pushing more minutes out of the day for you to work. The more I learn about the world the less I want to be apart of it. But, it is all about perspective. There are good people out there. Just got to go away from the bitter window and look out of the happy window :)
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019