Ask Bill Roberts #10

Timing of Orals

Dear Bill,

I have heard you mention the value of taking orals at different times during the day. What would you recommend for say 45-50mgs of Anavar? All at once in the morning, or spaced out evenly?

Juan

For maximum gains at the cost of inhibition, spaced evenly.

For minimum inhibition at the cost of less gains, all at once in the morning.

 

Steady Levels vs. Peaks

Bill,

I’d think that steady levels of a non-gonads inhibiting anabolic would be better than 2 peaks of short term dbol. Where am I going wrong?

Joan

Because there is no such thing as a non-inhibitory anabolic/androgenic steroid. Inhibition of the hypothalamus and pituitary occurs not only via the estrogen receptor but via the androgen receptor. You can’t have something that works on the ARs of muscles but not on the ARs of the hypothalamus and pituitary.

Winstrol vs. Anadrol Controversy (from Nelson Montana)

Hi Bill,

Let me first say that I enjoy your work at Meso. It’s a good site.

Aw shucks! Now I’m feeling bad about the A50 comment!

I think it interesting, also, that even though we’re coming from different backgrounds, we have come to many of the same conclusions concerning steroid use. I was unaware of your 2 week cycle concept when I wrote about a 3 week program in the “Steroids For Health” article and I’m sure you were unaware of my work when you wrote yours. It’s funny. I’ve been advocating short cycles (to much criticism) for so long it seems strange that I would recommend a LONGER cycle than someone else!

The information about LHRH responsiveness worsening after 2 weeks is a little-known thing.

Then again, that includes a decreasing dosage, Nevertheless, the two principles are very similar.

Yes. Especially because your dosages were lower and thus inhibition is less of a problem.

I did want to address the Anadrol vs. Winstrol controversy if I may. My assertion wasn’t that an equal amount of Winstrol was necessarily more “powerful” than Anadrol per se.

I must have misread your article. I thought it was stating precisely that.

My effort just now to find the article in the archives atTestosterone.net failed entirely.

If you had not made the statement that Winstrol was, mg for mg, comparably effective to Anadrol® or more effective, I apologize for saying that you did.

There is the variable concerning Winstrol that it’s effectiveness seems to vary greatly among individuals, but I maintain my position that in most cases 50mgs of Winstrol a day

will provide more SOLID -longer lasting -gains in MUSCLE TISSUE, than 50mgs of Anadrol® a day. Anadrol® will cause more of a strength and weight gain but as you know there is a dramatic loss of both strength and size shortly after intake is discontinued.

There is more of a water gain, which is lost: that much is certain.

Another factor is that I was considering the more common scenario of combining Anadrol® with other steroids – steroids that have high affinity for the AR, which oxymetholone does not. By itself it is not drastically superior to a comparable amount of stanozolol. Added to many stacks, though, 50 mg of Anadrol® makes a most noticeable difference, while 50 mg even of injected Winstrol is not that dramatic.

I think it odd also that considering your penchant toward health that you would recommend Anadrol® at all.

Nelson Montana

I agree with Michael Mooney’s point, and the evidence in many clinical studies, that Anadrol® used by itself is nowhere near as nasty (scientific term) as it is when stacked with testosterone. It is also quite mild with regards to side effects when combined with Winstrol Depot, by the way.

It’s not my first choice but I think I was answering a question from someone who wanted the most bang for their buck. You sure can’t buy 50 mg of Winstrol tabs for $2, as you know.

Thanks for writing! I’m flattered.

 

Deca and 2 on / 4 off

Dear Mr. Roberts,

I read that you recommended that a person take 500mg of Sustanon on day 1, consider himself “on” for the next 2 weeks, after that, wait 4 weeks, and restart the process.

Not precisely. I said that if one wanted to do the 2 on / 4 off concept with Sustanon, 500 mg would probably not lead to inhibition in week 3 but 1000 mg either might or might not. I didn’t recommend this as a proven way to do this and in fact said that if that were the only AAS used then not much gains could be expected.

How much would you recommend one should take of Deca, specifically Norandren 50, to achieve optimal 2 week results? The reason I mention Deca is that I am concerned about my current thinning hair situation.

Neil

400 mg/week would be reasonable (800 in the first week because that much or more is needed to give levels equal to subsequent weeks, which unlike week 1 have residual drug from previous weeks.) This would be for a longer cycle plan.

 

Nutritional Plan for Jim’s Experiment

Hello,

I find Jim’s experiment very interesting however, could you elaborate a little bit more on the nutrition plan that was used during this cycle.

Larry

Unlike the first report on the 2 on / 4 off cycle where the individual was precise in what he did, I don’t know exactly what Jim did nutrition-wise. I did advise him to be sure to keep protein at least 200 g/day over his usual amount. He used Met-Rx, Met-Rx Protein Plus, and Designer Protein to do this, along with what was (knowing him) probably otherwise an approximately isocaloric diet with equal amounts of carbs, protein, and fat. I also know that he did not eat enough in the first week and actually got leaner, then pigged out in the second week and therefore wound up at about the same bodyfat as he started with.

I will ask Jim to give some information on his diet in his next cycle, which, hopefully, he will be starting in a week — the MRI says that his knees are okay but they still have him hobbling. Doing too much high-impact aerobics such as basketball is a really bad idea, as this example proves. Especially because he is now hell-bent on proving to the world that his legs will soon no longer be the “Federal disaster area” that people have been saying that they are! That will require some serious leg training, which requires healthy knees.

 

Triacana: A Nutritional Supplement?

Bill,

I’m currently looking into a product called Regental and it has 35mg. of ephedrine and 1 mg. of Triacana. What is Triacana and what does it do?

David

Triacana is tiratricol, a prescription thyroid hormone drug used overseas, and which has been used as part of a combination thyroid drug in the US. I expect that those distributing it as a “nutritional supplement” will soon find themselves staying at the Iron Bar Hotel.

The fact that it is a natural product drug is not sufficient to make legal non-FDA-authorized manufacture, or non-prescription sales. E.g., testosterone is a natural product drug also. So is penicillin. Sorry, you can’t sell them as nutritional supplements. They are classified as drugs, as is tiratricol.

The Hatch-Richardson Act will be no protection because this compound is not being introduced for the first time by a supplement company, but was first introduced by the pharmaceutical industry, namely by Glaxo. It remains a drug.

Tiratricol suppresses TSH in the same manner and to the same degree (for same effect on metabolism) that T3 does, so the claims of it not causing inhibition are false. It is possible to cause yourself just as much problems with tiratricol as with T3. Thyroid hormones are prescription drugs for good reason.

 

HCG Past Expiration Date?

Bill,

I need some help here. I obtained some HCG (Gonadotropyl C) from Mexico. I have read in a couple of different places that HCG expires in 6-8 weeks, even when you haven’t mixed the dry powder with the sterile water solution. I hope this isn’t completely true because it was about 5 months ago that I was there.

Marcus

It is also supposed to be refrigerated even before mixing. I personally would not inject this stuff.

 

Liquid Androstenedione?

Bill,

Is there a company that makes liquid androstenedione? If there is, is it absorbed better sublingually that through the stomach?

Mack

Andostenedione is insoluble in water. It is soluble in pure ethanol but that would burn your tongue badly. Relatively little can be absorbed sublingually if a cyclodextrin carrier is not used.

In any case you would be better off with an androstenediol product (note: same thing as Androdiol).

 

Androstenedione: Muscle Builder or Acne Inducer?

Dear Bill,

I’m disillusioned. I read in MM for months that androstenedione was the next big thing. I’ve tried it for 2 years with the only result being an increase in pimples. And being a Ph.D. holding, senior business person, that’s exactly what I don’t need at the age of 43! Was it all hype?

Duff

I’ve never used androstenedione, and wouldn’t because of the relatively high amount of conversion to estrone (an estrogen).

I often use Androdiol before workouts and like it. However, for those prone to acne, it simply is a fact that any testosterone product, or one that converts to testosterone, will cause problems, perhaps before significant muscle-building effects are noted.

It seems unlikely that a modest increase in testosterone levels for a few hours per day could lead to big gains. I use the Androdiol just because it gives better training drive via temporary effect on the nervous system, not because I think it is an effective anabolic when used only occasionally.

 

An Objector to Meso-Rx

Mr. Roberts,

I was just thinking, “Why would someone build a site that encourages the use of steroids?” The fact is that God makes us who we are, he made me strong and street smart, but you don’t see me getting a microchip implanted in my brain so that I can go to MIT or Harvard. That is not what I was made for. Play the hand you were dealt, and you will succeed. Try and alter what you are given and nothing good can come of it.

Brad

I don’t think that encouraging the use of steroids is the purpose here. In fact, I know it is not.

Steroids are used whether one likes it or not and will continue to be used, and the purpose here is to provide accurate information, not to advocate their use. I hope you don’t feel it is better for people to self-administer drugs in ignorance, or worse yet with factually wrong information, rather than with at least a little accurate knowledge. If you feel that if no information is provided, then no one will use these drugs, experience says you are wrong.

Considering how many people e-mail me telling me that now, thanks to what they learned on Meso-Rx, they finally have their natural testosterone production back, when their doctor was unable to do anything and was about to put them on lifetime replacement therapy, I tend to think that some good is being done here.

 

“Quality” Muscle: Different for Different Steroids?

Bill,

I have been following your articles re: androgen receptors, anabolic/androgenic steroids. Accordingly, wouldn’t it be accurate to state that the assertion that using Deca will create “higher quality muscle gain” is bunk? Or the statement that using Deca at the end of a cycle will make one’s gains “more permanent” or “less likely to dissipate” at the end of a cycle also bunk?

A.D.

It isn’t bunk if the point is that one may think one has made a lot of muscle gains from an aromatizing steroid, but actually a lot of the weight is water, and therefore not “quality” and lost quickly after the cycle.

However, contrary to popular myth, I don’t think Deca is particularly good for ending a cycle. It is quite inhibitory.

 

Gaining 15 lb. with Winstrol Tablets or Primobolan Depot

Bill:

I am 29, 5’10’, 204. I’ve been lifting for 15 years and am fairly strong. I would like to put on 10-15 pounds and cut up. I have been told that I should get the results I want by simply taking Oral Winstrol, 2mg tabs… say 10mg/day. I also have access to Primobolan Depot.

What do I need to do? I need to know daily dosages, should I just do all injectable stuff and how long do I go on, then off. I have not used anabolics before. Thanks for your help.

Chuck

For modest effect, one might use just that amount of Winstrol tablets in the morning only e.g. on arising and at noon. It will do no harm and may increase gains a little. Maybe after a while you would achieve your goal. You will not find rate of gains to be anything amazing at that dose. That is a female fitness competitor dose in many cases, or a low-level amateur female bodybuilder dose. (Actually, I agree with Dan Duchaine that women with good genetics really don’t need high doses to do well in the lighter weight divisions, but that is another topic entirely.)

You could probably get where you want with 6-8 weeks of Primobolan Depot at 400 mg/week, with 800 mg in the first week, and then take at least 4 weeks off before the next cycle, preferably at least six weeks.

 

What Supplements Do You Use?

Dear Bill,

I was wondering, what supplements do you personally use?

Thanks,

JCR

Generally speaking I don’t believe that supplements are very effective for adding muscle naturally, and are more or less useless as muscle builders for those on steroids.

The exceptions are:

Protein and meal replacement products: Supplement protein is easily digested and it is a convenient way to get the amount of protein one is planning to use. I personally use Met-Rx and Met-Rx Protein Plus, because I like the taste. I also think that the inclusion of casein is a good thing. Meal replacement products are also useful for supplying added vitamins and minerals. I also use the food bars when a shake cannot be used, e.g., when at the movie theater if the next scheduled mealtime is in the middle of the movie.

Ephedrine. Useful for increasing training drive and for fat loss.

Adipokinetix: Useful for fat loss.

Caffeine: Useful for training and for fat loss.

Creatine: Somewhat useful for being a few pounds larger than one would otherwise be and perhaps improving training. At bulk prices, buying a kilo at a time, it is cost-effective.

Thyrolean: I have only just begun using this product and can’t give an absolute recommendation, but so far while using it I have very easily gotten leaner than I have ever been before, dropping in one week from the eight percent bodyfat range into the seven percent range. Simultaneous use of Adipokinetix, however, might be responsible. I think this is a product worth looking into.

DHEA: I don’t use this, and it will probably do no good for a young natural trainer, but an older person or a steroid user might find it worthwhile because both of these populations typically have low DHEA levels. 50 mg/day would suffice.

Antioxidants: I personally don’t use them but that is not because I think it is wise not to do so, but simply out of failure to do so.

When To Take Clomid

Bill,

Does it matter when I take Clomid? Would it be better to take it at night, since the night-time is more important to testosterone production?

Dave

It doesn’t matter, because the half life is so long (five days) that levels will be essentially constant throughout the day regardless of the time of day that the drug is taken.

 

Tribulus

Dear Bill,

What do you think about Tribulus?

Nicholas

I tried it myself and got nothing out of it. On the other hand, I know of two individuals who had been on low dose hormone replacement therapy who did feel that it helped them.

The claims of amazing percentage increases made elsewhere by those selling this product are a little tricky and deceptive. All the individuals started out with severely depressed testosterone levels, not normal levels. They don’t tell you this, and want you to assume that your normal levels will be likewise increased by some similar amazing percentage.

How did these individuals all happen to wind up with depressed testosterone levels? Maybe you can guess.

If you take an individual who has just finished a steroid cycle and have him drink orange juice (or whatever) you will see the same kind of results if recovery is normal, and you could just as well attribute the amazing increases in testosterone to the orange juice. You could then hype your special orange juice and perhaps make killer profits from the gullible. Substitute Tribulus for orange juice, and you can sell that instead.

 

Norandrostenedione vs. Norandrostenediol For Men

Bill,

You wrote “The diones are good choices for women but not for men. Norandrostenedione is probably a very good choice for you, perhaps the best one.”

I was curious as to why norandrostenedione isn’t a good choice for a man to use. Are there certain undesirable side effects involved and what happens on a biochemical level?

Keith

More conversion to estrogen compared to norandrodiol, which is not much problem for women but is undesirable for men. This is because the norandrostenedione can convert directly to estrone, but norandrodiol cannot.

Besides this, the diols are more effective, particularly for men. Women have higher levels of 17b -HSD, and perhaps for this reason the diones are reasonably effective for them. Either that, or because women don’t need to see anywhere near as large an increase in testosterone to achieve a noticeable effect as men do.

 

Why Are Steroids Being Used in “Off” Weeks?

Hi Bill,

First I’d like to say thanks for the good information. The question I have is about Jim’s 2 week on 4 week off cycle. I noticed that his dosage was high for 2 weeks than low for 3 weeks. Is this just to help keep gains? I was thinking it was for 2 weeks at a heavy dose then off completely for four weeks.

Fred

From the standpoint of recovery of the HPTA, the “off”weeks were indeed off, despite the fact that 40 mg/day total of orals were being used. Testosterone was higher than the starting value. From the standpoint of the liver, this was also effectively being “off” steroids according to the lab test.

These results were expected based on previous experiences. The morning-only usage is presumably responsible.

The purpose, indeed, is to help keep gains.

The main reason that the fourth “off” week was completely clean was psychological. The low dose use could have been continued. However, if very many cycles were planned to be done together, having a week that is entirely clean each cycle is a conservative idea.