Ask Bill Roberts #11

A Letter from Bruce Kneller

Bill,

You’re right on the money with Triacana (tiratricol) being a bona fide drug and not a supplement. For starters, tiratricol is considered an orphan drug by the FDA (which of course, means it is a “drug”). A French company holds the orphan drug patent for this compound and the patent does not expire until the year 2015. Also, of interesting note is there are at least three patents that I located at the US Patent Office that cover tiratricol used in ANY topical form.

It is exactly as you say.

While I am not utterly convinced that Triacana is absolutely worse than Cytomel or Synthroid per se (nota bene – ALL OF THEM have the potential to cause permanent damage to the thyroid if used irresponsibly over the long term), I am convinced that selling Triacana as a “food supplement” is foolish and shortsighted.

I agree. Not only will this probably be shut down by the government, but it may bring scrutiny to the bodybuilding supplement business in general. We have the freedom to buy and use a whole lot of weird stuff that medical science knows very little about. Now most of the stuff is junk of course, but still I think it is good that we have that freedom. Those days may end as a result of the supplement industry selling thyroid drugs to the public, which will inevitably result in some users suffering lifetime impairment of natural thyroid function.

I also realize that some individuals, who for the time being will remain nameless, want to try to market the mono- and di-iodinated precursors to T-4 and T-3 under the guise they are “prohormones.” Again, another foolish move.

Something that most of your readers might want to realize is just because something is “found in nature” does not mean it can automatically be sold as a food supplement with Hatch Act protection.

Human Growth Hormone, Insulin, EPO, PGP2, are all “naturally occurring” and most certainly can’t be sold as food supplements. Additionally, all one needs to do is look towards the biotechnology companies that have sprouted up over the last decade (there are 1500+ in the USA alone now) and one realizes that they are often exploiting naturally occurring biomolecules for use to treat various conditions. Despite being naturally occurring, these compounds are drugs (if they were not, these companies would have very little reason to test their ideas/biomolecules under FDA scrutiny).

I would also like to state that just because you make/market something naturally occurring and you don’t make any overt claims regarding it does not get you off the hook in the eyes of the law. Ignorance (feigned or real) is never an excuse with law enforcement.

This is all true.

Thanks for providing an honest and informative column at the Meso site. You certainly do your readers proud.

Warmest regards,

Bruce Kneller

Thanks, Bruce! At this point all we can do is hope that the individuals thinking of selling these products will wise up. Unfortunately they appear to be driven more by ego and a need to be seen by bodybuilders as “innovators” than by good judgment.

Escaping from the HIT Trap

Dear Mr Roberts,

I used to train the way that I learned from my friends – doing maybe 20-30 sets per workout four times per week – and I made good gains. Then I bought some books on HIT and switched over to that. At first it seemed great, I gained maybe five lbs. in the first few weeks and my strength went up. But, nothing really in the year since then!

I tried to go back to training like I used to, but now I am shot after no more than 10 or 12 sets and don’t feel like I am ready to get back into the gym for three or four more days. I just don’t have the training energy or stamina I used to, and I think I need to get that back to make further gains.

Can you give me a training idea that will SHOCK MY SYSTEM for a few weeks, then get me back on track?

Thanks,

Alex

If you want to improve your work capacity, here is a program that is “different” indeed. Actually, as heretical as it sounds, most Olympic lifting titles are won by lifters who train somewhat similarly. So it is by no means an unworkable program.

Pick a few basic exercises, for example, pullups, squat, overhead press, deadlift, bench press, Yates row (see description I gave in Jim’s workout program), and dips. Do two sets with a weight that allows say 10 reps each time, being able to complete the last rep successfully. If you’re too fatigued to do two sets, you can quit with one, but work up to two as time goes on. Do complete all the exercises each time.

Now do this six days per week! That’s right, train every bodypart, whole body, six times in a row.

What you will find is, your performance will be drastically inferior on the second day of the program, but by the sixth day you are probably matching your original rested performance, despite being “in the hole” from all the previous workouts. Take a day off, and repeat for another week, the next week being 5% heavier.

Now go to more conventional training which will seem easy by comparison.

The split I am using now is:

• Chest then shoulders
• Hack Squat, Leg Press, Leg Extensions, calves
• Chins, Rows, triceps, serratus, abs
• Rest
• Shoulders then chest
• Hamstrings, lower back, and calves
• Pullups, different selection of rows, triceps, serratus, abs
• Rest

This is with about 20 sets average for each of those days, which actually is split into two workouts a few hours apart.

If I were to change this, I might move back to the same day as chest, and move shoulders to the back day. Another possible change would be to add an extra day of rest in-between the three workouts.

A Not-So-Good Cycle

Hi Bill

Considering the following “first” cycle in 12 years…

sus250 250 mg every 14 days
deca 200 mg every 4 days
dbol 50mg every 2 days
anavar 25mg every day

all for 6-7 weeks; rest 4 weeks, then repeat at +25% dosage level, replacing dbol with Winstrol. Any comments??

Tim

This is a weird cycle. I don’t know if you mean 200 mg Deca every 14 days (which would seem to fit in with the overall low-dose infrequent use) or per 4 days as you actually wrote.

If 200 mg every 4 days, then that is reasonable: it works out to 350 mg/week on average. If 200 mg every 14 days, then that is too little.

Keep in mind that your first 100 mg per week of testosterone, and perhaps the first 200 mg/week of Deca, is (as an approximation) just going towards replacing the natural testosterone you lose from being on cycle and gives no net gains. Someone with low natural testosterone might do pretty well on just 250 mg/week of testosterone, but 500 mg/week is a more reasonable minimum.

Taking Dianabol only every other day makes relatively little sense either.

I think there has been a lot of discussion on sensible cycles already, so I’d check out the archives.

Androdiol: Length of Time in System?

Bill,

How long does androstenediol stay in your system? I am planning on taking 100 mg. a day for a four week period or so and I am concerned about this showing up in a urine test (specifically designed for athletic purposes). Speculation tells me androdiol can stay in your system up to a year, yet I hear of people ‘staying on’ steroids at lower levels and passing. As far as I know, the tests check testosterone levels compared to epitestosterone levels. How much time should I stay away from androdiol to pass and what preventative measures can I take to help me pass?

Thank you.

Dave

Virtually all androdiol will be out of your system within a day, and what remains is indistinguishable from natural androgen. The only thing to worry about, as you mentioned, is the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio. Basically you are not going to fail this if you have not had androdiol in the last 24 hours and have not used testosterone drugs.

Winstrol Depot and Drug Tests

Bill,

I was wondering about Winstrol Depot and its detection time on drug tests. Since it does not have a ‘half-life’, how does one determine when they are clean? I realize everyone has different metabolisms, percent bodyfat, activity levels, body weight, I don’t know which if any of these effect Winstrol’s clearance time in the body. If you could even give me a ballpark estimate on clearance time for Winstrol or how to calculate it I would deeply appreciate it. Any info would be appreciated greatly thanks

Nate

It is a good question to which I don’t have a definite answer. I have second-hand knowledge of some athletes being caught a couple of weeks after use, but I can’t say for sure when one is clean. If it’s really important, I’d suggest doing an experiment: you can get a urine test done from the Medlean website. (Nope, I don’t even like Dr Cohen, thanks to him slapping $30 each for overnight mailing which I didn’t even ask for onto two orders, but that’s the only source I know.)

So you could try taking the test at say 3 weeks, and if you fail, then at the 4th week, etc.

Protein

Mr. Roberts:

I am new to this field as far as protein and supplements. I would like some advice on a good protein and some building supplements. I am 45-year-old police officer trying to keep up with the youngsters, and the bad guys.

Brian

I don’t think there is any tremendous difference between the proteins that are available to bodybuilders now, with the exception that proteins that have casein (such as Met-Rx) don’t rush through your system as quickly as the whey-only proteins do. This is because the stomach senses a particular protein which is in casein and takes this as a signal to release its contents slowly even though there is only a liquid in it. Thus, mother’s milk is well-digested. If there is no casein, it exits the stomach as if it were a liquid containing no protein.

Besides this, the most important thing is taste, and this is very much a personal preference. What I think tastes best, you may not like at all. However, my personal preference is Met-Rx meal replacement packets (Vanilla, Berry Blast, or Peach) mixed with Met-Rx Protein Plus (Vanilla Ice Cream flavor).

If you don’t actually like how the product tastes, you probably won’t use it long-term, even if it is cheap.

PGF-2

Dear Bill,

I recently was able to order 10 bottles of PGF2 from a vet supply place and was curious what your thoughts on its use are? I only want to use it for as short a time as possible to bring up my calves, which have failed to respond to any amount of training and steroid use. My main concern is simply long term safety issues, I don’t want to come down with some weird disease in ten years. I realize prostaglandins are already in your body, but I have no ideas what the effects of supraphysiological doses are, besides muscle growth of course. Also, how would you recommend taking it to bring my calves up, and could I combine it with my current cycle given that I am only going to use it in one bodypart?

Joel

I don’t think anyone knows the answer to safety questions regarding chronic use of PGF-2. This is an interesting idea, but it is impossible to tell in principle whether the claims made by Dharkam are right or not: only experience will tell that, and not so many people have done it yet. My guess is that doses not large enough to give much systemic effect used for only a few weeks is probably not very risky, but I can’t guarantee it.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Evaluation of Cycle

Bill:

One individual has told me that he garnered wonderful results from the following cycle:

Week 1:
Sunday: 200 mg of test suspension in H20
Monday: 1 I.U. of GH & 200 mg of test enanthate
Tues. – Fri: 1 I.U. of GH
Sat – Sun: Null

Week 2:
Mon. – Tue: 1 I.U. GH
Wed: 200 mg test suspension in H20 & 1 I.U. of GH
Thur: 200 mg of test enanthate & 1 I.U. of GH
Fri: 1 I.U. GH
Sat & Sun: Null

Week 3:
Monday – Fri: 1 I.U. GH
Sat & Sun: Null

Weeks 4 – 6:
Monday – Fri: 1 I.U. GH
Sat & Sun: Null

On the Sunday of Week 6 repeat entire cycle beginning from Week 1.

The cycle, with the AAS, is repeated as often as desired. When not using any AAS, I know my friend to use 1 I.U. of GH year round.

My friend’s logic is “…GH needs high androgens to be an effective anabolic” thus the use of test. He claims the water based is a fast acting test that gets in and out of the system while he is waiting for the enanthate to “kick in.” Additionally, it is my friends conviction that the “bursts of test” do not inhibit his own natural test production. Although I am inclined to believe my friend, as I have seen the results, I know that the size of one’s arm is no indication of the level of one’s knowledge regarding the substances used/abused.

1. Do you believe this to be a beneficial method of GH/AAS administration or is there, in your opinion, a better way to achieve the desired result of gaining 15lbs of muscle mass?

I don’t think it is ideal by any means. The dosage of enanthate, contrary to your friend’s theory, most certainly will inhibit his natural testosterone production, especially since it is taken again near the end of week 2. So this is by no means a 2 on / 4 off cycle: rather it is perhaps a 3 ½ on / 2 ½ off cycle or something like that. Going past two weeks means that the pituitary also will become inhibited, and if that’s the case I think one might as well go on to 6-8 weeks.

I find it hard to believe that your friend would gain 15 lb. of retained muscle from one of these cycles you have described, but if he did, that is terrific for only 0.8 grams of steroid, to say the least.

2. I read in a previous column that you feel 1 I.U. of GH is insufficient for results. Do you think the “GH needs androgens” theory is valid and can substantiate my friend’s claims?

Yes, for GH to have the most effect, you need AAS.

I’m glad you brought up the GH dosing point, because after writing it I realized that I did so in a way that probably would be understood differently than what I meant. I meant to say that for really obvious, rapid results one needs 2 IU twice per day, and 1 IU twice per day will not do that. That is not to say that 1 I.U twice per day is useless: just that it doesn’t give dramatic fast results: you might not even be sure that there is any effect until quite some time has gone by.

So actually Dave Palumbo and I don’t disagree on that at all: we were talking about different things.

3. Cost considerations not withstanding, do you feel GH to be a more effective and safe muscle-builder than AAS?

Casey

Not more effective by itself, no, and not safer unless the dose is quite low, as with your friend.

Sustanon and Dianabol?

Hi Bill

I wonder if you could help me …..I would like to take Dianabol and Sustanon. Do you think this is a good course? What dosage do you recommend? How will I stack them etc…?

I am 75kg and would like to get to 80-85kg

Kevin

Dianabol: 25-50 mg/day in divided doses (one or two tabs four or five times per day).

Sustanon: 500-1000 mg/week

If you want to be very conservative, then you could use 500 mg Sustanon on the first day, and continue Dianabol for another two weeks, then take at least three weeks off.

Or you could go 8 weeks.

For gyno protection, I’d recommend taking Clomid, 50 mg/day at the lower steroid dose range, or 100 mg/day at the higher dose range, continuing at least four weeks after the last injection or until you are sure your natural testosterone production is back. This is something you can gauge by the ease with which you “raise wood” and the quality thereof.

Anadrol® Question

Hello Mr. Roberts

I plan on going on a short cycle (my first). I only can get Anadrol®-50 of which I will buy fifty. Would it be better to take 1 tab every 12 hours for consistent blood levels versus taking two every morning to potentially minimize Test negative feedback?

If by short cycle, you mean two weeks at a time, I would take it twice per day to get better results while “on.” Actually, I would take a quarter tab four times per day, myself. (Assuming of course that I had a prescription.)

Also, would it be smart to take 1-2 weeks off in between, and would “stacking” it with 4-AndroDiol be beneficial to hopefully get some AR-mediated effects. How will this effect my glucose and thyroid levels?

Dariusz

Off time is always a good idea for health reasons.

I’m not aware of there being any effect on thyroid levels, but hyperglucagonemia (high glucagon level) has been observed in some cases with oxymetholone, though at higher doses than you are planning.

Stacking with Androdiol is an interesting idea and might have a lot of merit for the reason you say. Only potential problem is, oxymetholone seems to potentiate the estrogenic effects of testosterone rather severely.

P.S. These new mixed-agonist/antagonist estrogen drugs such as Evista are very interesting, any potential bodybuilding uses?

Evista (raloxifene) is identical in action to Clomid, except that its slightly different molecular shape causes it to be an estrogen antagonist in the uterus as well as in breast tissue, while clomiphene and tamoxifen are agonists there and therefore increase risk of uterine cancer. But raloxifene, like Clomid, is still an estrogen in bone tissue and with regard to effect on blood “cholesterol” levels, not an anti-estrogen, so it is quite a good drug for postmenopausal women or women at risk for breast cancer. For these populations, is superior to tamoxifen or clomiphene, for the reason mentioned of not increasing risk of uterine cancer.

For male bodybuilders it should be comparable to Clomid.

Cypionate Cycle Question

Mr Roberts,

I currently have three 10 mL bottles of Test-Cyp at 200mg/ mL. I also have Clomid, Proviron and HCG. This is the only AAS I can get. How would I cycle this product to gain good lean mass? Is it possible to stay lean during this androgen cycle?

Al

That is 6 grams of steroid, which is sufficient for 6 weeks at the very effective dose of 1 gram per week, or 12 weeks at the moderately effective dose of 500 mg/week.

I would not go 12 weeks straight, but would make two cycles out of it if I preferred the lower dose.

See above question for how much Clomid to use.

I think it takes quite a bit of Proviron to be effective (50 mg/day at a minimum) and really am not a big fan of it. It’s worth adding in though when using lots of aromatizables.

The HCG should not be used after the cycle, but using it during the cycle every three weeks or so is a good idea, at 4000-5000 IU two or three times during that week. Keep in mind that it will increase risk of gyno, perhaps from upregulating aromatase.

You can certainly stay lean during a cycle: eat plenty of protein but keep your carbs moderate and the fat low. I recommend 200 g/day more protein than your usual and 1000 total calories more than usual if on a gram per week, and at least 120 g/day extra protein and 600 total calories extra if on ½ gram per week.

Norandrodiol

I read in one of your responses to a reader that you do not recommend any of the prohormones other than androstenediol. It seems that a lot of articles are saying that nordiol is more potent. Why do you not recommend this nordiol?

Ken

It’s not that I think it is particularly bad or anything — I just don’t see where it gives as much bang for the buck. If someone were very concerned with hair loss, though, it would be a better choice.

A disadvantage of it is that some users come down with “limp noodle syndrome” from using it. Obviously if it doesn’t happen to a given individual then that is irrelevant, but for those it does happen to, it’s an undesired side effect.

5a -Reductase Inhibition

Mr. Roberts:

Do you know of anything that inhibits 5 alpha reductase type I? (I know that Finasteride works for type II. Glaxo and Merck are have some drugs in research but they won’t be available for some time.)

The only ones I know about are experimental ones. Now, finasteride does work on type I, just not particularly well.

Would Deca inhibit DHT production by binding to 5aR?

Kay

To some extent.

Clomid and Bone

Dear Bill,

Does Clomid act as estrogen on bone or an anti-estrogen?

An estrogen.

If it acts as estrogen does it block out stronger estrogen thus slowing bone age? Or does it speed up bone age maturation?

It acts against osteoporosis. I do not know if it would speed the closing of the epiphysial plates or not. Without medical advice that it does not, if it does not, I would think that those who still have some vertical growing to do, or growth of clavicles, should not use it.

Does Primobolan increase IGF-1 since it’s not a 17alka?

I’m not aware of 17-alkylation being relevant – also, if this has ever been measured for methenolone (Primobolan) I’m not aware of it.

Also does Primobolan convert to estrogen like Deca does via other pathways besides aromatase?

Stan

No, it cannot.

GHB

Dear Mr. Roberts

I’m a 20 year old male who just started to workout a couple of months ago, and been looking for supplements to take to help me bulk up faster. Some of my friends were telling me about GHB, and the benefits from it. I was wondering what your thoughts about GHB were and if it is safe to take? Also if there is any dangerous side effects?

Luke

GHB will not help you gain muscle mass, except indirectly if it helps you get the sleep you need if you otherwise would not get it. It may increase GH levels somewhat but this doesn’t translate into noticeably faster muscle gains for natural trainers.

If it were not a controlled substance where I live, I would want to have some because my sleeping schedule sometimes gets disrupted, and it could help if it’s 3 or 4 AM and I’m not able to sleep.

Used conservatively it is a safe substance. As with any drug, overdose can give problems, including coma or death. This generally takes massive overdose or combination with other drugs.

By the way, except where they may help you to eat frequently enough (preferably 6 or 7 times per day) and to get enough protein (at least 1 gram per lb. of bodyweight) supplements won’t make a big difference in gaining mass. Careful nutrition and intelligent, consistent, and hard training is what adds the mass.

Which Two of the Three: Primo, Deca, and Dianabol?

Bill,

If you had the option of either using Nandrolone, Primobolan, and Dianabol, which combination would you use and why? What type of dosages would be used taking into regard low side effects, restarting natural production, and maintaining the majority of lean muscular gains made? Would Clomid, Cytraden or anti-estrogen be needed ?

Stavan

Either Deca plus Dianabol or Primobolan plus Dianabol can give the same results. Primobolan could be gotten away with on a short cycle approach: one could inject a gram of it on the first day (assuming one can afford that!) and this would work fine. For a longer cycle, a gram per week would be preferable. For Deca, 400 mg/week. Dianabol, 25-50 mg/day.

With the Primobolan, one could use just Clomid or just Cytadren to compensate for using the Dianabol. With Deca, I would use both, or use 100 mg/day Clomid.

I would prefer the Primobolan plan, but those who are more concerned about their hair would prefer the Deca plan.

Duration of Action of Sustanon, and Finasteride Use

Bill,

How long does Sustanon and or enanthate stay in the system? There appears to be conflicting reports. Some say two weeks and others four?

There is no light-switch on/off effect.

By the way, it is possible to search Meso-Rx though there is no search engine built in. Go to:

http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=aq&what=web

and, in the “Enter boolean expression” box, type in:

Meso-Rx and (whatever word or words you are interested in)

For example, here you would type in:

Meso-Rx and half-life and (enanthate or Sustanon)

and you would find quite a bit of information.

Lastly, should a higher dose of finasteride be jacked up from 1.25 mg a day maintenance to twice that or more during the on weeks. I know you don’t like the systemic effects of Propecia, but then again I don’t want to get the dick loss effects of deca either.

Ryan

Perhaps you mean you don’t want to use Deca, so therefore you need Propecia? I suspect you were not thinking that Propecia would do anything for the “dick loss effects” of Deca – it won’t.

For use in cycles with testosterone, I don’t think it is bad at all. One simply doesn’t want less DHT than normal. As the amount of testosterone in the system increases, the amount of finasteride needed to keep levels down to normal increases. I consider 5 mg/day reasonable at the gram per week level, and proportionally less at lower dosages of testosterone.

Less than 4 Weeks Off-time on Short Cycles?

Dear Bill Roberts,

I have a question concerning the 2 on 4 off cycle. I noticed in your 4 week report that Jim’s testosterone levels where not only restored but actually somewhat higher in week four. Is it safe to assume that if someone was interested in maximum gains that they could possibly just do 2 on 2 off?

If that were done, I suspect that testicular atrophy would slowly develop, since they’d be shut down for probably 18-20 days out of every 28.

HCG during the on weeks could fix that of course.

But you have a good point. Four weeks is probably a little more than is really needed. On the other hand, I don’t know how to design a good recurring training cycle that is less than 6 weeks long anyway. If a 2 on / 3 off program were tried, or 2 on / 2 off with HCG, I think there would need to be two “on” periods during each 8 or 10 week training cycle.

I have another question concerning a hypothetical stack. I have a hypothetical solution with 75mg/ml of trenbolone acetate…

Indeed hypothetical, if you mean 75 mg/mL in oil. About fifty is all that can be achieved. Now in propylene glycol, I wouldn’t be surprised if you could get that, but I don’t know.

… and also a hypothetical solution of testosterone(no esters) in oil that is 200 mg/ml.

Strictly hypothetical: I don’t recall offhand the solubility of unesterified testosterone in oil, but I know it is in the 25-50 mg/mL range.

I have also some hypothetical Dianabol, Proviron and some Clomid. I was wondering if you would suggest a hypothetical stack for a 2 or 4 off, or if my first question was correct for a 2 on 2 off cycle. And could you possibly suggest any additional compounds to add to this hypothetical stack.

Unesterified testosterone in oil is simply a bad idea. It was found when this was tried as a potential pharmaceutical that the drug was eliminated from the system in a matter of hours. There is indeed a reason why you cannot buy this drug.

As for the other substances, the answer would be, similar to the cycle plans already written about.

If this 2 on 2 off stack interests you, and you would like to have another experiment then I would be more than happy to volunteer. I would be glad to get the blood work, take pictures, and do anything else to help the cause of bodybuilding science.

James

Well, thank you! But sacrifices for science – not necessarily doing what might give one the best gains at the moment, but making only a single change to a program so as to learn its effect – simply is not what most people really want to do. I am only acting as a journalist reporting the experiments of others whom I know personally – naturally I have nothing to do with devising their cycles. Usually they pick up the ideas from eavesdropping on the lunch-time chatting of the grocery workers in the local meat and deli department.