Ask Bill Roberts #13

Winstrol and Primobolan oral

Bill,

What would be a good cycle for an oral Winstrol-Primobolan stack?

50 mg/day Winstrol plus 100 mg/day Primo. It would be a lot more efficient to use the injectables.

Would I see the same gains if I replaced Winstrol with Anavar?

Ted

I’d expect so.

You do realize that either of these would be very expensive cycles.

Mild cycle

Dear Bill,

I’m able to get Winstrol, Anavar, and Primobolan. I don’t know if I should stack them or use one individually. This will be my first time using and I’m looking to gain a few pounds but also get leaner. What would you suggest for the maximum and safest results? If you suggest to stack them, could you please suggest a 6 week cycle.

Hiram

50 mg/day Winstrol Depot plus Primobolan Depot 400 mg/week. With these drugs there really is no need to switch drugs in mid-cycle, or use other drugs to counter side effects. This dose would give substantial results.

For an even safer cycle that would still give significant results, the Primo alone would do the job. One could start with that, and if satisfied with rate of progress, stick with it, and if not, add in the Winstrol Depot.

Anavar is too expensive generally speaking.

Winstrol Depot

Bill,

I was planning on taking a cycle of Winsrol Depot and was wondering what type of results this particular steroid gives. I was also wondering how I should cycle it like how much, how often, and how long the cycle should last. I have heard it needs to be injected daily many times but others say every three days. Any information on the topic would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Derek

The reason to take it every day is simply that to get a pretty good dose, you need 350 mg/week, which would work out to 50 mg/day. You could get the same results injecting 100 mg every other day though.

Results vary greatly with any steroid, particularly depending on how far below or above one is from one’s natural limit.

However a natural trainer might typically gain 15-20 lb. muscle in 6-8 weeks on that dose of Winstrol.

It can be used either in a straight cycle, e.g. 6-8 weeks, or an alternating cycle, making the last injection on day 10.

Continuous use of Nolvadex or Proviron

Dear Bill,

Is O.K. to take Nolvadex and/or Proviron all year long…even when not on steroids???

Wil

Nolvadex will generally be fine for continuous use.

Proviron however inhibits natural testosterone production.

Deca and Propecia

Hi Bill,

You were kind enough to answer my question this week and post it on Meso-Rx. Thanks. Now here’s the problem. From what I’ve read (By Patrick Arnold and someone else who I can’t recall) mixing any Nor-hormones (Deca, Nor-Andros, etc.) with Finasteride exacerbates hair loss! Is this true?

Denis

Yes, although I would not put it that way. Rather, if you do not use finasteride, then nandrolone is converted in the scalp to a less-potent compound. So to a very substantial extent it is deactivated. But if you use finasteride then this deactivation does not take place and the scalp sees full strength nandrolone. Nandrolone then becomes comparable to other synthetics with regard to effect on hair.

Cycle help and clomid

Bill,

If for instance I had 2 grams of test. enanthate, 2 grams of Norandren 200, one 50cc bottle of Reforvit, and 40 tabs of Clomid what would be the best way to cycle those. I was also wanting to do a more traditional 8-10 week cycle with the above drugs. Also would it be more effective to use the clomid at 100mg for 2 weeks and then 50mg for the last week or 100,50,50?

Would that give my body enough rest to do another cycle in another 6 weeks?

Thanks,

Nick

Four grams total means you have enough for 8 weeks at 500 mg/week.

As I’ve mentioned before, in later weeks if you have been taking say 500 mg/week, when you inject 500 mg you don’t have just the amount you just injected, but also a comparable amount still remaining from previous weeks, or about 1000 mg total in the system. So for the first week to have the same levels that later weeks will, it needs a double dose, assuming that the drug has a half life equal to the interval of injections.

So, we’d be talking about 1000 mg in week 1 and then 500 mg seven more times. There would be enough carryover drug in week 8 for this definitely to still be an “on” week.

I haven’t seen any real benefit from most schemes involving switching drugs during the cycle, with the exceptions being switching to Primo at the end of a cycle, and using Anadrol® only at the start, if it is to be used at all. I know it’s widely claimed but frankly many of the claims are silly, particularly when people talk about how well it worked to switch from enanthate to cypionate, etc. This is definitely placebo effect or coincidence since in either case the same drug reaches the receptors.

Anyway, this would mean using 250 mg/week of each steroid, but 500 mg of each on day one. 50 tabs of Clomid doesn’t give you enough for both gyno protection and improved recovery post cycle. So I would suggest either getting more, or saving it for recovery.

For the same reasons as mentioned above concerning half life and initial loading dose, one needs six times the maintenance dose for the first day on Clomid, in divided doses. After this one tab would suffice. You won’t have any real recovery beginning until the start of week 9 at best, so you might as well save the Clomid for then. The exception would be if nipple soreness results: then twelve tabs on the first day and two tabs per day afterwards would be called for. Once nipple soreness ends this could be reduced to one tab per day, and if this occurs then I would never use an aromatizable steroid again without Clomid or Nolvadex.

Six weeks off should do fine, but judge it by how many weeks your natural testosterone production has been fully back as judged by sexual performance and how you feel. Four weeks is a reasonable minimum.

Equipoise and drug tests

Bill

Can you tell me how long Equipoise can be detected in drug tests after injection? I realize this amount of time may vary but I would like to know a ballpark figure for a healthy, active athlete. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Bob

I’d expect it to be just as bad as Deca Durabolin with regard to taking many months to drop to undetectable levels: this because the ester has a long half life, and because the steroid (unlike testosterone) is not one naturally found in the body, so even the smallest trace is grounds for test failure.

It is however not a popular drug with Olympic athletes (if it is used at all) and I don’t have specific information on exactly how long it takes to clear the system to pass an IOC drug test. But it is certain that it would be quite some time.

Tribulus and a suspected loss of testosterone

Hi,

I thought your explanation of andros was very good. I live in Canada, and do not have access to these supplements. I take tribulus, which is available in Canada. I was wondering what you think of tribulus, and what tips you might have.

I don’t think it reliably increases testosterone levels. It does seem to give some people easier erections, sometimes.

There is no real evidence that it increases LH or testosterone, not even what I would call good anecdotal evidence. I personally got nothing from it.

But my main question, that I haven’t been able to get answered is How does “ejaculation” affect testosterone levels as they apply to muscle increases.

There is no significant amount of testosterone is semen.

I’m concerned with the “once a day ejaculation” and if it is lowering my testosterone levels as they apply to anabolic response.

Ryan

It isn’t, and don’t worry about it.

Propecia and gyno

Bill,

Do you think this is this normal? I have some background in bio-chem.. and on paper its possible but I’m wondering how common this is.. I’m going to try and give you as much info as possible so you have a good info base to work with.

I had been taking Propecia the 5-AR inhibitor for about a year.. I’m a competitive bodybuilder.. (natural) I was taking the drug because baldness runs in my family.. I have never used AAS before.. but have heard that finasteride can increase the potency of a AAS cycle by keeping more of test from converting to DHT…

No, it just reduces the side effects of testosterone.

Only a very small percentage of testosterone is “lost” that way in the first place, so this is not a major effect at all.

But what I think has happened to me is that it increased my estrogen. I wound up with some problems with nipple soreness even though I was not using steroids.

Scott

Gynecomastia is a known potential side effect of finasteride. This probably is because DHT acts as an antiestrogen, and this antiestrogenic effect is reduced when DHT levels are reduced. Estrogen levels also increase somewhat, indirectly, as a result of increase in testosterone levels.

Was Bill wrong about Reforvit?

Mr. Roberts

While reading your responses in your previous Q&A, I was somewhat dismayed that you said there was no difference between Liquid Dianabol and tablets. Now while this may be true with regards to the chemical structure of the active AAS, the delivery system does effect blood levels of AAS considerably. How is this so? The main reason for the difference is the fact that liquid D-bol (which is in an oil base) will be absorbed more slowly and over a longer period of time resulting in more even blood levels of AAS.

David

The problems with your theory are:

1) Reforvit is not in an oil base, but in propylene glycol. You will find that upon addition to water, the propylene glycol dissolves into the water and any dissolved steroid will precipitate out into a suspension, giving you the same effect as with the tablet after the tablet breaks up into a fine powder.

2) Even if it were dissolved in oil, this would not give a slower release.

While this seems to be of little concern it affects mood swings and so called “roid rages” to a great degree by limiting the shift of AAS from low to high to low again. Perhaps this does not concern you, however I have found that among those using liquid D- while achieving similar result- they complain less of mood swings and are noticeably less irritable than those on tablets.

Blood levels don’t change much with the tablets if the Dianabol is taken every four hours or so as I have recommended. Really levels will change much more with the Reforvit, because people do not tend to take that five or so times per day as is commonly done with the tablets. So I think your theory is fundamentally flawed.

Help for first cycle

Dear Sir;

I’ve enjoyed your site very much, and also checked all issues there. I’m 20 years old and bodybuilding for 1 year. I’m going to starting a steroid cycle for the first time in next month (after a diet of fat burning). I want to get lean mass (bulking up). I’m 1.80 meters and 80 kg. What type of cycle could you offer to me?

Please write the dosages and all details? – I’m a rookie!!!-

Here in Turkey, we have only Primobolan depot, Dianabol, Virigen.

Muhsin

Virigen (Andriol, oral testosterone undecanoate) is not very effective. 240 mg/day is comparable to about 100 mg/week of injected testosterone.

Primobolan is a good choice, especially if it happens to be affordable, as it is in some countries (I don’t know the price in Turkey.) 400 mg/week has the advantage of giving a moderate anabolic effect without too severely reducing natural testosterone production. Dianabol can be used as mentioned in previous articles and stacks well with Primo.

For an 8 week cycle you might consider Primo at 400 mg/week with Dianabol used only in the morning, say 10 mg on arising and 10 mg at noon. This would be a very mild cycle that would not need any supplementary drugs—if any nipple soreness did occur (unlikely) all that would be necessary would be to stop using the Dianabol.

Steroids and the penis

Bill,

My question is do steroids have any effect on the penis, does it shrink or grow or is there ant effects on the penis that doesn’t have to do with the testes.

Devon

I’ve been told by a doctor that it is medically impossible for shrinkage to result from steroid use, but I am not sure that is true. A friend (who goes by the name Juice Lee, believe it or not) insists that he did actually did lose half an inch. He says that luckily he had enough to easily spare that, but would still rather have it back.

I suspect that this is a phenomenon similar to what is seen when one voluntarily contracts the PCG muscle: the penis shortens.

It is not I think that the penis itself really gets shorter, but that it can be pulled in by this muscle. Thus the effect might be reversible with stretching. JL will get on that right away and we’ll report the results.

HCG and Clomid

Hi Bill,

I’m Alex and I’m writing from Nord, Italy. So, when is the best time for using HCG and Clomid???? Bye and excuse for my bad English.

Alessandro

Clomid has two main uses in bodybuilding: to prevent gyno, or growths under the nipples, and to help recover natural testosterone production.

It is of use against gyno only if aromatizing drugs are being used: testosterone, Deca, Dianabol, or Equipoise are the most common such drugs, whereas Primobolan and Winstrol do not aromatize.

It helps recovery most when levels of steroids used have dropped, which might be a couple of weeks after the last injection if long acting drugs are used such as testosterone cypionate, enanthate, or Deca. Its use should be continued for several weeks until natural testosterone is back.

HCG is used to maintain testicle size or restore it if they have shrunk. It is best used during the cycle itself, perhaps every third week.

Alternate means of delivering injectable steroids?

Bill,

I am looking for options concerning the administration of injectables. I was taking about 150 mg of Brovel enanthate and 150 mg of Brovel Deca (I already figured in the fact that it is under-milligramed so it is the actual estimated dose) every nine days for 3 weeks and started getting good gains (that with a creatine load got me 15 pounds, everyone noticed I had gained weight and not fat). Anyway for some reason that is beyond me, all of the sudden injections hurt so much that I couldn’t get the needle in anymore- I use good aseptic techniques, have no abscesses, alternated cheeks, used the right upper quadrant of my glutes, never shot more than 2 cc’s at a time, let several days go between injections in the same spot, had good new product (sealed cap had not been broken or tampered with). I did end up sweating myself to sleep and having swollen lymph nodes though, and it was my first cycle.

Anyway I don’t want to waste the rest of my stuff so I am trying to come up with different ways to take it. Since it is in oil can I take it orally and get lymphatic uptake and miss first pass like the liquid d-bol or andriol?

Keep in mind that Andriol is extremely inefficient: 240 mg of it is comparable to perhaps 15 mg or so of injectable. And Dianabol is 17-alkylated whereas nandrolone is not.

Could I mix it in DMSO and get transdermal uptake or are the molecules too big or will the oil interfere?

Generally speaking nandrolone decanoate would offer terribly poor transdermal delivery, not because of the size of the molecule (that is not such a big factor, contrary to oversimplifications by others) but because it is almost entirely insoluble in water. However, with DMSO what you are doing is destroying the structural integrity of the stratum corneum of the skin, and the drug is carried along with the DMSO. Therefore solubility in DMSO is the major factor. Short chain steroids are highly soluble in DMSO, but oils are not. Whether a decanoate steroid has good solubility in DMSO, I don’t know.

I don’t recommend it though because it is hard on the skin and gives bad breath.

My last resort idea is as a suppository but will an oil based drug have uptake there?

Erik

It would if it had reasonable water solubility, but Deca does not, nor does testosterone enanthate.

If the product is good you could try injecting into another site, e.g. thigh, biceps, or triceps with a 29 gauge insulin needle.

However the problem with your lymph nodes suggests to me that you have bad stuff. I personally would be afraid to use it after that experience.

Dianabol and hair loss

Bill,

I have done one cycle of steroids in my life and it consisted of four Dianabol per day for four weeks. I made some good gains and was happy with the results (about 6lbs.) Here is my question: I have started to get a slightly receding hairline (it’s not from steroids though because it started happening before my first and only cycle); If I take another four week cycle of Dianabol will this increase hair loss?

Yes, somewhat.

If so, then do I have other options as for as steroids go?

Deca. Or with other steroids (actually, even with Deca for that matter) you could use topical spironolactone (available from http://www.minoxidil.com/).

This is an androgen receptor blocker. I have no affiliation with the above company except as a customer.

Also, if this will cause an increase in hair loss, then my other option was going to be to take some tribulus (tribestan) along with some phosphatidylserine (PS) for a change in my testosterone to cortisol ratio.

Mark

I would expect nothing from this.

Asymmetrical body parts

Bill,

I would just like to ask what is the best training technique to correct asymmetrical body parts. I have been training for quite some time now and generally, my whole left side is a bit bigger than my right side…. bigger left biceps, bigger left triceps, bigger left chest, wider left lats, etc.

I have done some researching on my own and I have read a few suggested training techniques such as using dumbbells exclusively or adding more reps to the smaller body part…. Are these suggestions valid or true? If they are, then is it safe to do single dumbbell flyes? Or single dumbbell presses?

Chito

Dumbbells are a good idea.

Usually all one has to do is stop the set when the weaker side can do no more.

However in some cases the muscle belly may actually be shorter on one side than on the other. In this case, to achieve the same size, it must be more highly developed than the muscle on the other side which has a longer muscle belly. This generally will only be achieved by holding back the development of the stronger side.

And yes, you can do one arm exercises except where your balance is thrown off. Flies are an example of an exercise where, if you can handle heavy weight, one arm work would not be a good idea.