Ask Bill Roberts #14

Reforvit Cycle

Dear Bill,

I have a question regarding a Reforvit-D cycle. I ‘might’ be doing a light but effective cycle:

Week1: 2cc=50 mg every 4 days
Week 2: 3cc=75mg every 4 days
Week 3 2cc= 50mg every 4 days
Week 4 1cc=25mg every 4 days
Week 5 1/2cc=12.5mg every 4 days.

Reforvit is better used orally, and these would be daily doses, not doses to be taken only every few days. If the dose were taken only in the morning, gains would be compromised but natural testosterone production would not be much inhibited. Dividing the dose equally every few hours (say every 4-5 hours) would improve gains but at the cost of reduced natural testosterone production.

Perhaps the best approach would be to alternate two weeks of divided doses with 3 to 4 weeks of morning-only dosing.

At the amounts I am taking I don’t think gyno will be a problem, I see no evidence that it will be at these low doses. This is good because I have no Clomid or Nolvadex available. I was considering starting a relatively intense cycle of norandrostenediol/ione (400mg to 800mg a day) on week 4 as I ‘might’ be tapering off of the cycle. My theory is that it will help me keep the gains I have made if not even give a little boost to them. My question is, would that delay the return of my natural testosterone production?

Not if you take it only in the day, up to perhaps 4-6 PM (some have done okay pushing it to 8 PM but others have not.)

If not, do you think it will do what I hope it will. If so, do you think mixing some high doses of Tribulus would make a difference?

Patrick

Tribulus does not seem to do anything to increase testosterone or speed recovery, in my opinion.

Deca and Winstrol Cycle

Bill:

I am doing a cycle soon because I lost 12 lb. due to an illness and haven’t been able to even go back to were I was, I will be using Deca, Winstrol v and Andriol. What dosages and pattern do you suggest and which one of these would be the best choice to taper?

Keep up the good work,

Luis

I’d leave off the Andriol (oral testosterone undecanoate) because it is not very effective at anything besides promoting hair loss and acne. Well, sometimes it can be effective in promoting erections, but that probably is not an issue. Let’s hope not, anyway.

Winstrol and Deca are a logical combination because nandrolone (Deca Durabolin) is effective at the androgen receptor and stanozolol (Winstrol) is effective in non-AR mediated mechanisms. Furthermore, stanozolol binds to the progesterone receptor but is not progestogenic, whereas nandrolone is progestogenic. Thus, Winstrol may very well block the progestogenic effect of Deca that can lead to bloating, gyno, and/or impotence.

I really should have realized this before, since I had reports of this combination working very well. But somehow I had not realized the rather obvious reason above for why Deca would show less side effects when Winstrol is used.

On the same subject, while it is true that nandrolone can aromatize and does aromatize to some extent, the usual claim that it aromatizes a great deal is not true. The progestogenic effects are mistakenly being called estrogenic effects.

Two pieces of evidence support this:

1) One study found that Deca at both 100 mg/week and 300 mg/week actually reduced serum estradiol levels by about 65% compared to starting values. This presumably is a consequence of the reduction in testosterone, which was by a comparable percentage, and with little nandrolone being converted to estrogen.

2) On a Deca-only cycle, Clomid is reported not to block bloating.

3) High levels of progesterone kill sex drive, and this problem has been observed with Deca. While it does not “convert” to progesterone, it acts like that hormone at the progesterone receptor. So, how to use the Deca and Winstrol? Why not try 800 mg Deca on the first injection, and then 400 mg once per week after that for four to six weeks, and use 50 mg/day Winstrol. It could then be continued at 50 mg/day for another two weeks, since there is still plenty of Deca in the system to promote gains and also to make recovery impractical anyway, and then reduced to 50 mg every other day in order to allow recovery.

The Winstrol can be injected with an insulin needle, which makes daily administrations of 1 cc quick, easy, and not unpleasant. Obviously, a muscle is chosen which has very little fat over it, and a location where you know there is no nerve, from knowledge of anatomy.

The other option, which might be superior, would be to continue at 50 mg/day but switch to taking the Winstrol V orally in the morning. Let me stress that I know only of use of the tablets at that dose, but in principle there is no reason why the injectable could not be used in the same manner. Anything that is pure enough for injection is most certainly pure enough to use orally.

Detecting Norandros in a Drug Test

Hi,

I handle the sale of supplements at a health club in South Dakota. There are many individuals who are curious about the andro-norandro products and what effects they have for drug testing. I’ve heard that the norandro can cause a positive test for nandrolone up to 2 years after use. Is this true?

No one that I know of has measured this. I’m dubious it could be quite that long.

The problem is that unlike testosterone, which is naturally present and therefore trace quantities prove nothing, nandrolone is not naturally present in humans (although there exists one unconfirmed French study back in the 1980s that claims to have detected it in pregnant women) and so if the analytical chemists can detect any trace whatsoever, the athlete is busted. And these days analytical chemistry is approaching the point of detecting single molecules.

And while the norandro products, or nandrolone itself, have short half lives and therefore literally the last molecule would be eliminated within weeks, unfortunately some of the nandrolone will be esterified within the body to forms which, like Deca Durabolin, are highly fat soluble and will remain in the body for quite some time.

I have no way of saying how much of this process occurs, but that the process does occur with steroids is a fact.

Thus it would not surprise me if it can be detected several months from use, and I cannot guarantee that it might not be longer than that.

Also would the athlete have to worry about elevated testosterone/epitestosterone ratios after cycling off of the andros particularly 4-diol? Thanks.

Jason

Norandro products can’t cause failure of the T/E ratio because they cause both testosterone and epitestosterone to be reduced in approximately equal proportion, due to lower LH production, if there is any reduction at all.

Antiestrogens for the Older Male

Dear Bill,

Which of the three drugs (anastrozole, clomiphene, or tamoxifen) do you think is best for maintaining sexual function in a 57 year old man?

Anastrazole (Arimidex) is indisputably the best of these because it corrects the actual problem of high levels of estrogen. In the older male this has particular value because estrogen contributes to development of prostate problems, and quite possibly could have that effect regardless of whether Clomid or Nolvadex were used. Certainly the free-radical promotion activity of estrogen metabolites, for example, is not blocked by Clomid, nor any other non-ER mediated activities of estrogen.

Do you think Arimidex can be effective at 0.5 mg per day and Clomid at 25 mg. per day (though obviously not as effective as a higher dose)?

For an older male not using anabolic steroids, quite possibly. Blood tests would tell the tale.

Or a saliva test would work if getting a blood test is a problem.

I’d previously given the Medlean website as a source for the saliva tests, but it is cheaper to have them done directly by the laboratory. The web address is http://www.bodybalance-online.com

Is tamoxifen a better antiestrogen than Clomid?

Jack

No. It doesn’t do anything Clomid doesn’t, whereas Clomid does appear superior in increasing testosterone production.

Oral Cycle

Bill,

I was wondering. I am a college athlete looking to take a cycle while home for the summer. I need something very effective yet also something quick in and out of the system. I was looking into the stack of Anavar and Primo, but do not know how well it will work. What do you suggest?

Greg

Anavar is not very effective. A friend just finished an experiment with no less than 150 mg/day (!) of oxandrolone and it did relatively little, only about half as much as could be obtained with only 50 mg/day each of trenbolone acetate and Dianabol.

He tried this experiment because of the report I had given that mentioned a study done by Forbes et al which included an athlete who gained over 40 lb. LBM in 10 weeks while self-administering, reportedly, only oxandrolone at that daily dosage. However, this unusual, or even bizarre result was not confirmed by my friend’s experiment. That does not mean that it did not happen, but I do suspect even more strongly now that the athlete may have lied to Forbes about what he was taking. That is, unfortunately, not an unusual thing.

If you are subject to drug testing, why not just stick with the androdiol products? But if not, and if you can afford Primo, then you can get some moderate results with it.

Cortisol Problems After Cycle?

Bill,

I understand that many factors come into play at the end of a cycle as to why gains made are partially lost. Towards the end of my cycle I plan on taking Cyclofenil and HCG to block excess estrogen and stimulate natural testosterone levels, respectively.

HCG increases estrogen levels greatly, probably by upregulating aromatase. Therefore it is much better to use it to avoid testicular atrophy during the cycle, rather than to wait until the end of the cycle and use it to reverse atrophy, since the latter plan also increases estrogen levels just when you are trying to recover natural testosterone production. It also increases testosterone levels which is somewhat counterproductive to increasing LH production.

However, I don’t know what to do about the excess amounts of cortisol that have built up in my body during the cycle.

This may not have happened and if you do not have a blood test showing abnormality there is no reason to be concerned.

The corticosteroids have short half-lives and do not “build up”.

It is my understanding that the high cortisol levels are present during the cycle, but are inhibited by the steroids binding to the receptors.

Not by that mechanism, but androgens do reduce the effect of corticosteroids.

Once the cycle has ended, the receptors are free, and the cortisol then attaches to the receptors.

It binds to the receptors in either case.

Have I misunderstood this process, and if not, what supplement or drug out there will help block my receptors so that the high cortisol levels won’t create this catabolic effect?

Dave

I feel that you are worrying about nothing. By reducing training volume by doing fewer sets and allowing an extra rest day or two before training a bodypart again (unless training was already only once per week) and perhaps doing quick negatives instead of slow controlled negatives, and using methods I have described before to keep androgen levels in approximately the normal range while recovering natural testosterone production, you should have no cortisol related problems. Blocking cortisol would be a bad idea and would lead to joint problems.

Furthermore, if you “blocked cortisol receptors” this would then cause your body to produce yet more ACTH, which would lead to yet higher cortisol levels, so the whole idea really needs to be forgotten.

I know it says what you are saying in WAR but I do not believe that they are correct.

Winstrol for the Track

Dear Sir:

I am a 19-year-old track athlete. I did a Dianabol/Winstrol stack last summer. It yielded some very impressive and quality gains. Now, here’s my question: can some of the left over D-Ball or Winny be used to help promote height increase? I know this may sound absurd, however I have heard of doctors prescribing certain steroids in low-doses and it promoting height increase.

That is in children, in young girls with Turner syndrome, etc.

I am just curious because this summer will be the first time I have not run in about 7 years (I think it has stunted me – I’m still about 5’9″) and it would be nice to grow. Do you have any suggestions?

Some people do grow after age 19 but most don’t. A drug that might help slightly would be Arimidex, since reducing estrogen levels would slow the rate of closing of the epiphyseal plates, if they have not closed already.

Also, I was thinking about doing a D-Ball only cycle this summer for upper-body mass…I read about a certain “2 on / 4 off” cycle you recommend. What is this? What is it good for? How? Thanks for all your help.

Daniel

Briefly, 2 on / 4 off is method of obtaining quick yet substantial gains (if dose is high enough) and then stopping at a point where the body is still able to recover testosterone production very rapidly, more rapidly than it can later, because the pituitary is at that point not only not inhibited but actually sensitized. It is not appropriate for use with long acting injectables, and not necessary for use with plans that don’t inhibit natural production much. It is also not appropriate for a person who wishes to make the absolute maximum gains possible in a given length of time: such a person would make more gains by being on 2/3 of the time, with for example an 8 week on / 4 week off pattern, with still longer “on” periods being appropriate if a contest is ahead.

Steroid Basics

Dear Bill,

I have never used steroids. And as a lot of readers of your column that I know, I wonder which ones would be most beneficial to my interests. I am 6’2″ and 215 lbs. with a solid build looking to increase mass, but most importantly to get cut. As I’ve read our columns, I’ve heard of many drugs such as Dianabol, Primo, Clomid, AAS, etc. This is like a foreign language, however. Could you give me some advice on what I could use and what kind of cycle to use it on? This will really help us newcomers.

Thanks,

Jake

Okay, I am going to put myself out of business by saying everything you need to know about steroids in very few words:

1) All anabolic steroids, at doses adjusted to be equivalently effective to each other, are fairly comparable in side effects with the following exceptions:

a) Deca is easier on the hair than others, including natural testosterone, because it is converted in the scalp to a steroid weaker than Deca is.

b) Testosterone is harder on the hair and skin than others because in the skin it is converted to a more potent steroid, DHT.

c) Steroids which aromatize (testosterone and Dianabol, for example) produce estrogen and lead to estrogenic side effects which non-aromatizing steroids (Winstrol and Primo, for example) do not. These effects include estrogenic bloating and estrogenic gyno.

d) Steroids which have progestogenic activity (Deca and Nilevar, for example, and, I expect, Anadrol) cause progestogenic side effects which other steroids do not. These include progestogenic bloating, progestogenic bloating, and can include loss of sex drive, though moderate levels of progestogenic activity can increase sex drive. Winstrol seems to reduce these progestogenic side effects substantially, if used at 50 mg/day.

2) Injectable esters last longer in the body. If you want the drug to clear quickly, an acetate, propionate, or phenylpropionate is appropriate. Levels will drop in half in a few days, to a quarter in about a week, and to about 1/16 in two weeks. If you want long acting results, use enanthate, cypionate, decanoate, laurate, etc., with the first being of medium duration, making injections at least once and preferably twice per week preferable, and the last being long acting, requiring injection at least every two weeks but preferably every week.

3) Anabolic steroids work by more than one mechanism: activating the androgen receptor is only one of them. Some steroids are effective in some ways but not in others. It is best to use a combination that covers both androgen receptor-mediated activity, and non-AR-mediated activity. Dianabol, Anadrol®, and Winstrol are examples of drugs that work principally by a non-AR-mediated mechanism, or more than one such mechanism. Deca and Primo are examples of drugs that presumably work mostly or only via the AR-mediated mechanism. Testosterone works both ways.

4) Natural testosterone production depends on how much LH is produced by the pituitary, which in turn depends both on how much estrogen and how much androgen is present in the system (among other things.) Therefore high androgen levels will shut down LH production. If androgen levels are allowed to fall to normal, and estrogen levels are either actually decreased, or estrogen is blocked from binding to the hypothalamus and pituitary by Clomid, then LH production usually increases. Therefore Clomid is useful for reestablishing testosterone production after a cycle. It is also useful during a cycle for blocking estrogen from causing gyno, or if a cycle is mild (for example, 250 mg/week of testosterone) will help keep LH production up during the cycle.

5) The longer you stay on a cycle, the harder it can be to get natural testosterone production back. Eight weeks usually works okay for most people.

6) I was going to talk about antiestrogens here but really there is not room and I have previously written a great deal about this and will do so in an upcoming article as well. I’d suggest checking the archives.

7) With testosterone it is desirable to inhibit the 5AR enzymes so that less is converted to DHT. Azelaic acid seems to be the best thing to apply to the skin for this. Azelaic acid cream is available by prescription for treating acne, and, for the scalp, a preparation that also includes minoxidil is available from http://www.minoxidil.com.

8) With any androgen, blocking the androgen receptors in the scalp or facial skin will help avoid male pattern baldness or acne, respectively. Spironolactone has the disadvantage of yielding a bit of a wet-dog odor on metabolism or decomposition as it yields thioacetic acid, but it seems to be the best thing currently available.

9) Typical uses: (total use would typically be in the 500 mg/week to a bit over a gram/week range for noncompeting users)

a) Testosterone: 500-1000 mg/week.

b) Deca Durabolin: 400 mg/week (progestogenic side effects can be bothersome with a higher dose).

c) Dianabol: 25-50 mg/day. If taken only in the morning it does not inhibit testosterone production much, but also does not give a great deal of gains with that dosing pattern.

d) Winstrol injectable: 50 mg/day.

e) Primobolan injectable: 400-1000 mg/week (if you can afford it!) At 400 mg/week, if it is the only steroid, it has the advantage of not inhibiting testosterone production too much.

f) Trenbolone acetate: 50 mg every other day, to 50 mg/day.

g) Anadrol: 50-150 mg/day but can be problematic combined with testosterone or Deca.

These are the main ones to consider.

10) Effective stacks and reasonably safe stacks (not all-inclusive):

a) Trenbolone plus testosterone, Dianabol, Winstrol, or Anadrol®.

b) Testosterone plus anything except Anadrol®.

c) Deca plus Winstrol, or Dianabol.

d) Primobolan plus Winstrol, Dianabol, or Anadrol®.

At first glance that looks like four stacks but actually there are 13 possibilities there. And that is not an all-inclusive list.

Well, it turns out that I can’t actually say everything you need to know about steroids in a small space, but hopefully that got you off to a reasonable start. I would really suggest reading the archives.