Ask Bill Roberts #15

What to stack with Primo?

Dear Mr. Roberts,

For my first cycle, can I use Primobolan injections alone? I know that with Primo, I will have little to no negative side effects, and only make moderate gains, but I have been told that I will hold almost all the size I gain.

Why can’t Primo be used on its own? Should I stack it with Deca or Test, or will it work singularly? What dosage would you recommend?

Joel

You can use Primobolan alone and get fairly good results with 400 mg/week, and some results with even as little as 200 mg/week.

The reasons that it has a reputation for producing gains that are more permanent than other steroids are, first, that steroids that aromatize result in some water retention, which gives the illusion of greater gains than actually occurred.

So when aromatizable steroids were used and the water is lost, there is the false impression that losses have occurred. With Primo you see less apparent gains since there is little or no water retention, and don’t see those water losses. So you have the impression that there were less losses.

And secondly, recovery of natural testosterone production is rarely a problem if Primo is the only steroid used, while with a heavier stack of other steroids, there may be real losses after the cycle when the injected drugs are gone from the system and natural testosterone levels remain temporarily depressed.

It’s okay to use with Deca, but it is not a particularly advantageous combination. Both of them have the same type of activity: they bind well to the androgen receptor but apparently aren’t very effective in stimulating non-androgen-receptor mediated mechanisms of growth.

With testosterone, I think it’s a little better to view it as, “Do I want to add some Primo to the testosterone?” rather than think of it as adding testosterone to the Primo.

It makes sense to add Primo to the testosterone if, because of side effects such as acne, you wish to use only a small amount of testosterone, such as 250 mg/week. Adding some Primo to that will add to results while adding little if anything to side effects.

Primo plus Dianabol would be another possibility if moderate estrogenic side effects are not a great concern.

Adding Winstrol to Primo will improve gains substantially while still keeping side effects to a minimum, except perhaps accelerated hairloss if you have the genetics for this. Like Primo, Winstrol does not convert to estrogen, so there is no need for any antiestrogenic drugs when this combination is used.

A reasonable dose range is 375-750 mg total (Primo plus Winstrol), injecting the Primo twice per week, and the Winstrol either every day or every other day. Or if Winstrol oral is used, the dose should be divided into at least four doses per day, in my opinion.

Oral Winstrol

Dear Bill,

I recently acquired 205 2 mg cetabon (stanozolol) tablets. I was going to use 30 mg a day for 2 weeks {roughly 2 tabs every 3 hours}. After reading through some of your Q&A’s, It looks like I shouldn’t expect too much from this dose.

Not too much in the sense that you should not be expecting 10 lb. of muscle from it. It is, after all, only 410 mg of steroids.

You recommended to a dancer that 25 mg a day should make a noticeable difference in his body fat.

Over time, yes.

Can I expect to gain any muscle from this dose?

In two weeks, with that dose, perhaps a pound or two.

If not, can I use it to shed some extra body fat while on the Body Opus diet?

Ed

Yes, it will help a little. But in two weeks that would probably be less than an extra pound of fat loss.

First cycle with Dianabol

Bill,

I read your articles all the time and respect you immensely. So I was hoping you could help me out with my first-ever cycle.

I’m 24, 5’10″, 190lbs, working out 2 ½ years.

I managed to get some Russian oral D-bol, but there seems to be no way to get a hold of any Clomid, HCG or anything similar. I don’t want to gain a ton of muscle, mostly just to add a bit more to make cutting down a little easier later. 5-10 lbs. of muscle would be fantastic.

My cycle would be:

• Weeks 1-4: 10 mg each morning + 5mg before afternoon workouts (every other day)
• Weeks 5-7: Very gradual taper from the above

My concerns are these:

• Avoid gyno, etc. while on the cycle.
• Being able to restore my own natural T production and balance afterward.
• Keeping some of the gains (50% would be nice)

Any thoughts on the above? Am I actually going to see 5-10lbs on this dose, or should I take more?

Edward

This is 105 mg/week, or 420 mg total in the first four weeks. It isn’t reasonable to expect more than a few pounds at best from such a small amount. For example, an 8 week cycle with 500 mg/week of anabolic steroids is 4 grams total, ten times more than this, and yet might well give no more than 20 lb. of muscle gain. (Obviously the exact amount would depend on the individual and his starting point, as well as nutrition and the training program.)

I wouldn’t be thinking of tapering down from the dose you mention. That already is a dose such as one uses in a taper!

The lack of Clomid is no problem, because you should not be suppressing natural testosterone significantly with this plan.

If your gains are better than a couple of pounds, which might well happen, it’s more from your workouts and nutrition being improved while on-cycle than from actual effect of the drug. Just as, for example, often happened with people on the Cybergenics program. So I hope you did wind up outperforming my prediction!

(Note: Since I a, unfortunately, behind by many hundreds of e-mails, Edward probably had done this cycle already before getting the response. So I was not ruining the placebo effect for him, I hope, with the above observations. And starting with the next Q&A column, I believe I will make sure to have at least half the responses be from the most current letters, so that advice won’t come after the cycle is over, which is, after all, sort of useless.)

What to stack with Winstrol

Dear Bill,

What other, less androgenic anabolics similar to Deca could be taken with stanozolol, perhaps only on the first week?

I don’t wish to criticize your usage of the word, which after is nothing different from what is commonly used in bodybuilding, but for the sake of making the matter more understandable, I’d like to clarify.

<scientific mumbo jumbo begins>

“Androgenic” refers either generally to the activity of developing or maintaining male sexual characteristics, or in assaying the activity of anabolic steroids, to the ability of the steroid to increase growth of the prostate or the seminal vesicles.

It is also logical to use “androgenic” to mean, “mediated via the androgen receptor.”

In bodybuilding many use the word with, it seems, no particular or consistent meaning in mind, but often apparently with the meaning “causing side effects of any kind, including estrogenic.”

So by that meaning, estrogen birth control pills would be called androgenic. Some even claim that anabolic steroids are only androgenic if they aromatize and convert to estrogen.

You can see that some have gotten the matter rather confused, and it is better not to use the word as they do.

It is better simply to refer to side effects by the specific side effects you want to talk about, which probably are not growth of the seminal vesicles, nor ability to develop or maintain male sexual characteristics. Only in the case of female bodybuilders wishing to avoid virilization, or Leonardo DiCaprio trying to make sure he doesn’t grow a beard, is androgenicity an undesired side effect.

Would any of these be appropriate: boldenone undecylenate, nandrolone phenylpropionate.

Okay, enough of the rant, and back to your question!

As mentioned in reply to a previous question, Primo stacks nicely with Winstrol and of course has low side effects.

Boldenone undecylenate (Equipoise) probably stacks well. I myself am not familiar with that particular combination. It ought to work well though.

For a two week cycle, only the nandrolone phenylpropionate would be a workable choice. The others have half-lives that are too long.

If so, what are the recommendations for use in a 2 on, 4 off cycle.

Tony

You have a talent for asking about unusual stacks! Again, this specific combination is not one that I have seen.

But a reasonable approach, based on their properties, would be Winstrol at 200 mg or so on the first day, followed by 50 mg/day through day 8 or 9. Nandrolone phenylpropionate at 400 mg or so on the first day (unfortunately, that would require injections at several sites) followed by 200 mg every third day through day 8 or 9.

Deca and Dianabol

Mr. Roberts,

Thank you so much for the response. I know you’re getting a ton of email, but I have to ask you one more question. I probably should have gotten the Primo, but I’ve already received the Deca and the dbol, so I’m planning on beginning my cycle in a few weeks. I am worried about suffering a major crash at the end of my cycle. If I took 25mg/day Clomid throughout the cycle, would it be easier to recover at the end of a 10 week cycle of 300mg/week Deca and 20 mg/day of dbol during the first 6 weeks?

Not really, no. The inhibition occurring then is mostly androgenic (via the androgen receptor) and Clomid can do nothing about that. Only when there is little androgenic inhibition, and estrogenic inhibition is the main factor, does Clomid really help.

Should I take the dbol alone for a few weeks and then start taking the Deca?

I would take both at the same time.

How would you plan this cycle so that I won’t permanently destroy my natural test production.

Paul

Permanently destroying testosterone production is a rare side effect and probably, when it occurs, does so more because of giving up and going on hormone replacement therapy than from the problem really being unsolvable.

If one keeps cycle length to 8 weeks and uses Clomid afterwards, in most cases recovery is no real problem.

Dianabol dose

Mr. Roberts,

For 5 or 6 weeks, what would you suggest as a safe and effective dose for Dianabol (5mg, pink pentagon tabs)?

25-50 mg day at 5-10 mg five times per day. Unless one is quite sensitive to gyno, this usually won’t cause problems in that regard. Those sensitive to gyno would want to use Clomid with it.

Would it be a good idea to stack Primobolan tabs along with the Dianabol? If so, how and how much?

Hiram

Yes, but only if the Primo tabs are quite cheap or you can afford them. It would take about 100 mg/day to be really worthwhile. Again, this would be in divided doses, at least four times per day in my opinion.

Prohormone questions

Dear Bill,

I have read your article on prohormones. I am starting up weightlifting after a two year absence, and am looking for some supplements take. Your article stated that diols are superior to diones, and norandro’s have less severe side effects than andro’s. Is this correct?

Yes, for male users anyway, the diols are certainly superior to the diones, and each nor product gives less side effects than the corresponding andro, with the possible exception that norandrodiol may have progestogenic side effects than androdiol does not. This is obviously minor though at typical doses, but when it manifests itself, it’s usually by causing temporary impotence.

If so, do you recommend taking “Nordiol 5” by Sports One. This is the only nor-androstene-diol that I could find from a reputable supplement manufacturer.

No, by no means. This compound, with the double bond in the 5 position, is estrogenic itself or is readily converted to estrogen.

Norandrodiol, in the -4 isomer, is available from many sources.

I am not interested in the severe side effects. Is this your top recommendation for which prohormone to take?

Androdiol and 4-norandrodiol are my top recommendations for men. For women I can’t really recommend any of them, but either of the nor compounds would be preferable to the andros.

In the year that I was off, I gained what I consider a beer belly along with loosing much muscle. Along with working out, I will get plenty of cardio work through hockey and jogging. Are the prohormones recommended when there will be considerable cardio work involved (any interaction with heart)?

No interaction except that if doses were high enough (which would be quite high) you could expect to see the effects of low dose anabolic steroids, which include worsened blood lipid profiles and can include hypertrophy in the heart similar to what occurs with aerobic training.

Are they effective for fat loss? I plan on taking Diet or Ripped Fuel, Whey Protein and a prohormone during my training.

Greg

They may make a small difference I think.

Anabolics for Mom

Mr. Roberts,

My mother recently called me to discuss a testosterone prescription her doctor had suggested. He also suggested Androstenedione. I went over briefly the pros and cons of the various prohormones with her, and why for a female androstenedione would probably not be the best choice. I also explained that as far as steroids for female athletes, I believed that Anavar was the drug of choice. Now, she is not an athlete, but she does care a lot for her health.

I was wondering if you could make any steroid recommendations for a woman of her age, who is somewhat overweight, and who has slight hypothyroidism

Finally, I told her if nothing else, go get the prescription and give ME the goods! I can’t believe my mom might get to juice before I do!

Matt S.

At age 52, an excellent choice might be tibolone. This steroid has some anabolic activity but also some progestogenic activity, and is simply amazing in how well it has worked for post-menopausal women, being effective in relieving climacteric symptoms and in maintaining skeletal integrity, reducing vasomotor symptoms,reducing vaginal dryness, and improving peripheral microcirculation. It has been found to improve sexual desire. Tibolone has been seen to lower lipoprotein (a), triglycerides, and LDL blood lipids. I would not be at all surprised to see it tend to reduce fat levels back towards pre-menopausal levels.

Another good choice, though it is not an anabolic steroid, would be raloxifene (Evista.) This will restore desirable estrogenic activity, such as on blood lipid profile andbone integrity, while not acting as an estrogen in the breast or uterus, which could promote cancers and is why you would not want to use estradiol itself or another estrogen.

Oxandrolone (Anavar) really would be a third choice in my opinion, and only after those two drugs had been tried and their effects clearly seen. Primobolan would be an equally good choice but unfortunately is not available in the US.