Ask Lyle McDonald #2

Dear Lyle,

I read your DNP experiences from MFW.  I started doing some research and I have come to the conclusion that DNP is not something I want to mess with.

I have almost the exact same lean body mass as you so this is not a flame, but why have you not increased you LBM to burn more fat and lower your bodyfat percentage. I think I would be happy at the 6-7% bodyfat you have achieved and not be any bigger than I am, BUT IF 10-20 LBS OF LEAN BODY MASS WOULD HELP ME REACH 6-7% BODYFAT.  I WOULD BE OK WITH THE ADDED SIZE (AND MAYBE HAPPY ABOUT IT).

Why did you choose to use DNP instead of a steriod cycle?

PS. I understood how a personal issue could trigger you to try something, but it would trigger me to try AS not DNP. Wouldn’t you consider a mild to moderate steriod cycle safer than DNP?

I still remember something I read about 6-8 months ago. “Why would you take all of these supplentments (HMB at the time, but androstene / norandrostene / DNP now) that no one knows the long term effects, when you can take anabolic steroids and be well aware of the short and long term effects.

Tom

The answer to your basic question (why did I choose to use DNP instead of adding more lean body mass or using AS) has several answers.

The first is a personal one. I was always a fat little kid. Raised by fat parents, no activity, shitty diet, etc, etc. When I got into high school, we had mandatory athletics and I started to get into shape. Thought “Hey, this is kind of cool, I’m not a fat ass anymore.” That led me to college to get a degree in Exercise Physiology. But despite everything I had done up to that point, I could never quite get as lean as I liked. In college I competed in cycling and in-line skating and was probably training 15-20 hours per week consistently. Yet I could never get leaner than about 15% bodfyat (too many carbs in hindsight). Then I found the Bodyopus diet.

And finally got below 10% for the first time in my life (even if I did make a LOT of screwups to get there). At that time in my life, I was much more concerned with being lean than anything else. In which case, DNP made more sense.

The second reason is an intellectual one. I am curious by nature. I like to read about stuff but that can never take the place of experiencing it. I have little tolerance for individuals who draw judgement on ANYTHING without ever trying it. DNP sounded like a fascinating substance but I wanted to experience it first hand. So I did. I’m not sure I’d ever use it again. To be honest, I would be interested in doing a cycle of AS. But I would only do it under the watchful supervision of an MD who would do the blood work for me and make sure the stuff was real. Very few MD’s would be willing to let me experiment with myself like that for such a superfluous reason (i.e. my own curiosity). Just realize that my goals for doing an AS cycle would have less to do with getting bigger or stronger as it would first hand experience. I hope at some point to work with elite athletes at some level. It’s a real fact of life that AS is a part of high level sport. I don’t want to be a dumb-ass coach who quotes the status-quo for AS “They’ll kill you boy, just eat meat.” without knowing first hand.

The third reason is a legal one. I can’t get sent to jail, have all my toys taken away from me, and become some guy’s girlfriend for the posession of DNP. Yeah, it would be illegal if I set up a fake company to get some but that’s not where I obtained it. The posession of AS (right or not) is punishable to the extent I described above. Yeah it’s been a while since I’ve gotten laid but I’m not into guys. By the same token, I have no way to know whether any AS I did get were real or not. I wasn’t connected to the underground in Nashville though I would probably have more luck where I’m living now.

I would imagine that similar reasons would apply to individuals who choose to go the supplement route rather than just get AS. AS are hard to find (well, real ones) and the potential penalties if you get busted are extremely high.

Oh yeah, I would probably agree that AS are relatively safer than DNP. DNP is one of those substances that you only get one screwup with. Someone who has a ‘more is better’ attitude (i.e. most bodybuilders) would get themselves into trouble because the lethal dose of DNP is only about three times the effective dose. But I am one to do major research into something before I use it. I knew the lethal dose of DNP, I knew the effective dose.

For someone who didn’t know what they were doing (or simply didn’t care), DNP would be incredibly dangerous. But maybe that’s not a bad thing. Thinning the herd, you know?

Oh yeah, one last thing. You ask why I didn’t focus on adding LBM to lose fat? While I agree in general with that strategy (boosting LBM to raise metabolic rate), I haven’t seen that automatically result in fat loss except in beginners, not without a diet. As I have discussed above, my goal at the time I used DNP was to get leaner, sub 10% bodyfat (though DNP wasn’t explicitly part of that goal).

That allowed me, over the last two years (during which time I have alternated periods of massing and dieting) to go from about 150 and ~8% bodyfat (138 lbs of LBM, where you are now) to 180 and about ~10% bodyfat (162 lbs of LBM). by leaning out first, I had ‘room to grow’ without letting my bodyfat get too high that I’d have to diet forever to get back to single digits. My goal for end year is 190 at 10% bodyfat (171 lbs LBM).

Dear Lyle,

I have been doing Bodyopus since Feb for a Bodybuilding contest in June, June 20th to be exact. I checked out your web site on precontest suggestions. I am down to 191.6lbs at 6.5% bodyfat. I am 5’8″ tall. On your web page you have some suggestions starting 8 days before the show.

What is your definition of low carbs? What would you do to define low carbs? What parameters would you look for to define low carb intake? During this low carb period are you in ketosis or out of it?

Do you have any other suggestions regarding the last 8 days before the show?

Since you’ve been on Bodyopus up to this point, I would generally suggest returning to it on Friday. Meaning take in a total of 30 grams of carbs across Friday (vegetables, not starches). You may or may not enter ketosis on Friday, especailly since you aren’t training on that day. But it’s no biggie. Basically you want to allow your body to drop any subcutaneous (under the skin) without losing muscular fullness. But at the same time you want to keep your blood volume up or your vasularity will suffer.

The only other things I can add are this:

Water intake: you should keep water intake high during the carb-up. This will ensure maximal fullness as well as keeping you body from upregulating Aldosterone (also called anti-diuretic hormone). Figure out how much water you drank per day during your carb-ups (which should be Tue and Wed, maybe Thu). Cut that in half on Thu, half again on Friday. So if you drank 2 liters of water on Wed, drink 1 liter on Thu, .5 liter on Fri. Sat is the day that can go either way. Basically sip on water as necessary. The diuretic should keep you peeing pretty well but you don’t want to dehydrate too much.

Sodium/potassium: I don’t beleive in sodium loading, have just heard too many bad things about it. But don’t do like many and cut your sodium too low too early or your body will hold water. Keep sodium at normal levels through your carb-up (it’s necessary to get glucose across the intestinal membrane) than decrease it on Friday and Saturday. This won’t leave you with many food choices and check everything for sodium intake.

Potassium is important to help avoid cramping but too much is as bad as too little. Generally 1000 mg taken in divided doses throughout the day will help. Again, don’t go crazy, too much potassium can be as dangerous as too little. calcium seems to help with cramping as well for some reason.

About 30′ before pre-judging, you’ll probably want to have some sort of quick digesting carbohydrate. this will bring up blood volume and bring out your vascularity. I’m aware that some have also used a shot of alcohol (what a healthy sport) to bring out vascularity but I”ve never had anyone try it so I can’t recommend doses. For carbs, 25-30 grams should be fine. Some like cookies, others powerbars and stuff.

Oh yeah, final thing. Even though we all *know* that placings are determined at prejudging, you don’t want to blow your look before the evening show. A female I worked with last year went out with her gym buddies and started her post-contest pig-out after pre-judging. Her stomach was way bloated at the evening show.

Sorry, one final final thing. DON’T PANIC!!! I coached a guy through email this year through the final 6 weeks of his contest. As he got closer to the contest time, I got more and more frequent panic emails. He wanted to badly to go off the plan we had set up for him. This is something that happens to all competitors. The last week they lose their minds a bit and try something weird (like sodium loading or doing a ton of cardio) and end up screwing themselves. This close to your contest, your getting close to as good as you’re gonna look. Any panic tactics you try at this point will likely do more harm than good. So stick with your plan and see what happens. If you aren’t happy with your performance at the contest, you can experiment during your next contest diet.

Dear Lyle,

I’ve read that you believe that trainers shouldn’t spend more than 4-5 hours in a gym per week. Can you explain why? I love the gym. I love going to the gym. I know that the body needs rest but only 4-5 hours a week? I go to the gym 4 or 5 times a week spending about 2hrs in there each time (although a good 1/2hr is devoted to abs). Every 8-10 weeks of training I take a a good 7-10 days off. This cycle has worked well for me for I have yet hit a plateau (20yrs old, training real seriously for 6 months). Do you think I should cut down? I do listen to my body. I dont have a rountine set in stone. I go on feel. Anyway your help is appreciated because I am serious about training and may some day compete (a while though…right now I’m 5’9 190lbs @12BF%).

My main reasoning is based on hormonal fluctuations which happen during training. There is supposdly research (tho’ I’ve never been able to find it) that testosterone levels begin to drop after about an hour of training. This is my reasoning for keeping workouts to below that time period. As well, most people can’t maintain a terribly high intensity of training for more than an hour. My current training partner used to do 3 hour back workouts (or was it 30 sets, I can’t recall). By the end of the workout, he was just going through the motions. Now I have him doing 5 maximum about 8 sets for back and he’s growing again (he’s been training 16 years and is near his genetic limits at this point).

As to no more than 4-5 days per week in the gym, it’s also hormonal. There is ample research that daily high intensity training will lower testosterone levels (bad) and raise cortisol levels (also bad). Endurance athletes, who typically train daily for several hours at a time (sound familiar) typically have very depressed hormonal levels. My general guideline is no more than 2 days training in a row without a day off for a natural lifter.

So, how are you making this type of training work? I would say that most of it is because of your age. At 20, you’ve still got high levels of anabolic hormones in your bloodstream (ah, if I only knew then what I know now) so you can get away with this type of training. As well, the fact that you’re bright enough to take 7-10 days off every so often is helping. Research has also shown a ‘rebound’ effect in hormone levels when training is stopped for a week.

However, this doesn’t mean that you can’t streamline your workouts and get even better results than you are now. First, I would ask why you are wasting 30 minutes per workout on abs. Having cut abs has to do with low bodyfat levels and doing crunches for 30′ doesn’t burn a lot of calories.

I trained a female bodbuilder for a show last year and she never did more than 3 minutes (yes, you read that right, three minutes) of abs at any given workout. Ok, maybe 6 minutes. I had her do heavy weighted crunches over a swiss ball in one workout and reverse crunches in another. Her abs were as cut and defined as the other girls in her class. So there’s 30′ you can eliminate from your workouts.

My general recommendations when I get questions like yours are this: you have nothing to lose by cutting back your training time in the gym. At worst you spend 8-10 weeks making a little less progress than you were making. At best you make better results (what I put my money on). As well, you learn something valuable about how *you* respond to training.

A couple of stories may help illustrate my point.

My current training partner (who I’m coaching for a show in September) has been training for about 16 years. He’s near his genetic limit but he also has very good recovery ability. He has trained up to 7 days per week twice a day every day. And he actually grew for a while on it. Then he cut back to training every day only once a day. I *finally* got him to cut back to training only three days out of every 5 (he trains 2 on/1 off on a rotating schedule through the week) for about an hour at each workout (very basic push/pull/legs split). He started growing again and he’s the heaviest he’s ever been, about 215 at 5’5″ and I would guess 12% bodyfat or so.

One of my clients has only been training for about 2 years. He was training like you are now, 4-6 days per week for up to 2 hours per workout. Had quit growing. I cut him back to about the same level as my partner above (he trains 3 days out of every 5 on a chest/back, legs/abs, delts/arms split, no workout longer than an hour). He is growing quite nicely now and, better yet, he can have a life outside of the gym.

Dear Lyle,

Great article on flax oil and protein intake. Could you please answere a couple of questions?

1. you recomended 1-3 TBSP of flax a day how do you know how much to take?

2. When you calculate protein intake are you using lean body mass or total body mass?

3. Could please give me an approximate caloric intake for my goals: BF% >7% LBW 170 by 7/30/98. [I committed to myself by entering the Ironman magazine challenge]. Presently my BF% 13.1% {four site formula used}, LBW 146, WT. 167 and 21 lbs. fat. I eat six /day, 30-40gms /meal, and train five days /week one body part a day. Cardio three days a week HR 130-140, for 30-45 mins. Also I’m a sales manager with lots of stress, I work 6-7days / week 9-12 hours / day and my wife is excpecting a baby any day now . I’d appreciate any help when you get a chance.

Thank you Bo Cunningham

1. I can’t recall seeing any guidelines for how to know if you’re taking enough EFA’s. I’ll be honest, 1-3 TBSP was pretty much a guess. I imagine it depends on bodyweight, how long you’ve been without sufficient EFA’s, etc. I’m sure someone will come up with a handy test for EFA deficiency here before too long. Maybe we could market it here on Mesomorphosis.

2. Due to some methodological problems in estimating true lean body mass (the assumptions that most body composition measurement methods are based on are all turning out to be incorrect), I generally use total body weight to determine protein needs. Now obviously if you’re carrying a LOT of excess bodyfat, this will drastically overestimate protein needs.

3. With regards to your lofty goals for your 12-week shapre up contest, we need to look at some numbers to see if your goal is even possible.

Current stats: Weight 167 lbs, body fat percentage 13.1%, fat mass 21 lbs

Goal: Lean body weight of 170 lbs and less than 7% bodyfat Accomplished by 7/30/98.

Let’s look at two things:

First, you bodyfat goals. Assuming no change in lean body mass, to get from 167 lbs and 13.1% bodyfat to 7% bodyfat would require a fat loss of 10 lbs (don’t ask about the calculations). That would put you at 11 lbs of fat and 157 lbs = 7% bodyfat.

In addition to 11 lbs of fat loss, you hope to add what looks like 14 lbs of lean body weight (from 146 lbs to 170 lbs).

In exactly 2 months. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but I don’t think it’s physiologically possible. Assuming you do everything correctly for fat loss, you should be able to lose 1.5-2 lbs of fat per week with minimal muscle loss. That means it will take 5 of the 8 weks you have available to lose the 10 lbs you need to get to 7% bodyfat. That only leaves three to put on 14 lbs of lean body mass.

Except for beginners (and I’m assuming you’re not one since you’re on a 5 day split routine), it’s nearly impossible to gain muscle while losing fat without the use of some type of partitioning drug. I think your best bet in this case would be to focus on fat loss for 4 weeks, during which time you should be able to lose 6-8 lbs of fat. A good place to start calorically is 10-12 cal/lb total bodyweight (1670 – 2000 cal/day) or so but don’t go any lower than that.

After 4 weeks, your fat loss will likely start to slow down and I’d suggest you swing into 1-2 weeks of slightly above maintenance eating (say 250 cal/day over maintenance). Say your bodyweight has dropped by 8 lbs from 167 to 159 lbs. Maintenance calories are roughly 15 cal/lb for most people which is 2380 cal/day for you. Add 250 calories more and you have 2635 cal/day. This will allow you to regain any muscle you may have lost and you might put on a bit. YOu could load creatine during this time period if you haven’t, that will put 5-6 lbs of lean body mass (not real muscle, just water) on your frame. Then spend the last 2 weeks dieting down to 7% for your post-contest photos.  Good luck!

Dear Lyle,

You seem to know a lot about bodybuilding nutrition so I guess you are a good one to ask this question. I am currently trying to put on as much lean fat-free muscle mass as possible. I want grow and expand while staying cut and ripped (no excess bodyfat). I was wondering, how should my caloric intake for a non-gym (rest) day differ from my caloric intake for a workout day? I would figure it would be lower but I have no clue.

Thanks a lot,

Nick Reising

First let me say that, in general, I think it’s nearly impossible to gain lean body mass without gaining at least some bodyfat. The reason is purely hormonal. To be optimally anabolic, you need moderate to high levels of insulin which impacts on protein synthesis, carb storage and (unfortunately) fat storage. It just seems that individuals who try to stay lean year round (either by doing cardio all the time or too meticulously counting calories) tend not to get much bigger from year to year. now I’m not saying that you should bulk up and get fat as hell while you’re gaining mass, just that trying to stay too lean may compromise mass gains. I use a cutoff point of about 10% bodyfat for male bodybuilders. Basically go on a mass phase until you hit 10% bodyfat, then cut back down to 7-8% then build back up. By doing this over the last 2 years, I’ve put on about 25 lbs of lean body mass while staying below 10% bodyfat. Not ripped but still lean.

Now that I’ve bored you to death with my philosophy, I’ll actually answer your question: I don’t know. Understand that the caloric reqirements for muscle gain have been poorly studied. We know that a pound of muscle contains something like 600-700 calories but it’s gonna take far more calories than that to cover protein synthesis, etc. Additionally, even during rest days, depending on your training structure, you may still be synthesizing muscle tissue. Protein synthesis stays elevated at least 36 hours after training and I’m willing to bet it stays up even longer. When you consider that it may take a muscle 4-7 days to recover from heavy training, I’m a bit leery of cutting calories during the recovery days since that may compromise growth. So if you’re training even twice a week, I think you will benefit from keeping calories above maintenance most days of the week. This will mean that you gain some bodyfat but I think you will grow better.

Dear Lyle,

I went over your personal bodyopus experience on the web. One question I had was what, if at all, was your final verdict on the drinking of water while dieting. Last I read(and maybe I missed something), was that water may flush out the blood stream of ketones, thus leaving one open to catabolism.

I ask this because I drink at least a gallon of water daily

Any verdict on this?

Thanks,

Rich Quinn

I haven’t made up my mind. To be honest, I think it would be nearly impossible to wash all the ketones out of the bloodstream. What happens is that excess ketones are filtered by the kidneys and excess water can push ketones out of the kidneys. But I doubt that would knock you out of ketosis. However, anecdotally some people tend to show lower levels of urinary ketones (less purple on the stix) when they drink a lot of water (this may simply be an artifact of the fact that Ketostix mesure ketone concentrations). And the epileptic children are kept slightly dehydrated so that they maintain VERY deep ketosis (like the darkest purple, which is necessary to prevent the seizures).

I guess I would say it’s a non-issue. As long as you’re showing trace ketones on the ketostix you are fine and getting the benefits (which have been overstated but I don’t have time to get into that here) of ketosis. And even then, the ketostix are problematic. It’s possible to be in ketosis (technically, ketonemia: ketones in the bloodstream) and not show urinary ketones (technically: ketonuria) because you’re not excreting any. I can usually tell when I’m in ketosis by how nasty my breath smells even if I’m no showing urinary ketones.

Dear Lyle,

I have a few questions about Dan’s body opus diet. First, has there been any feedback on using glycerol before a workout while on the diet??

I take a longer than usual time to reach ketosis and then only in the trace range. I eat 0 carbs & 70% fat, 30% protein. I use the ephedrine / caffeine / aspirin stack 2-3 times/day to help control hunger & lose fat. Is the caffeine interfering with ketosis???? Dan dosen’t mention not use the stack in the book, yet Both Dr. Atkins & Dr. Sears ban it from their diet because the caffeine supposedly raises insulin??? Do I also have to watch out for caffeine in diet soda???

I avoid sorbitol & mannitol sweeteners & I have stopped using garcinia cambogia & vanadyl sulfate, so I can deplete liver glycogen quicker

Also are you familiar with the studies that Dr. Lefavi quotes showing that vanadyl supplements reduce the uptake of amino acids into muscle tissue?? Is this correct & should I avoid vanadyl during the carb up period???

With regards to having trouble getting into ketosis quickly, you should look at your protein intake. Too much protein can interfere with the induction of ketosis (since approx. 58% of ingested protein turns into glucose in the liver). You don’t need more than about 0.9 grams of protein/lb of bodyweight per day. The rest of your diet should be fat.

Personally I’ve never had a problem with caffeine and ketosis and I don’ buy the argument that caffeine *by itself* raises insulin. I seem to recall studies that caffeine + carbs may cause a greater insulin release. Also the only way I can see caffeine raising insulin is by stimulating the liver to break down it’s glycogen. Thing is, this is a critical aspect of establishing ketosis, emptying liver glycogen. So if caffeine does raise insulin by helping to deplete liver glycogen, this is a good thing in terms of ketosis. The faster you can get liver glycogen emptied, the faster you can get into ketosis.

However, some people seem to be sensitive to the citrate in diet sodas, it kicks them out of ketosis. Try dropping diet soda from your diet and see if it makes a difference in terms of how quickly you get into ketosis. Outside of that, you might try cutting the length of your carb-up back a bit. When glycogen is restocked in the body, it goes to muscles first and the liver last.

I’ve found that keeping my carb-up to 24-30 hours makes it much easier for me to get into ketosis. It takes a good 24 hours for muscle glycogen to get restored to normal levels following depletion so my liver probably isn’t getting as fully restocked as when I used to carb for 48 hours.

Also, try to end your carb-up around 6pm in the evening (I carb from Friday midafternoon to Sat evening). It takes an average of 12-16 hours for liver glycogen to empty. By finishing your carb-up early in the evening, you have the rest of that evening and then your sleep for liver glycogen to dump. A little light cardio the next morning will get rid of the rest of your liver glycogen and you should be able to get into ketosis faster.

I’ll be honest that I haven’t had time to track down the vanadyl research that Dr. Lefavi cited. However he seems to be pretty good about only citing well done research so I’d tend to trust his interpretation of it.

Dear Lyle,

I am female and following the body opus diet. I eat no carbs from Sunday at 4 pm untill friday at 4pm following a depletion workout. I want to burn bodyfat but I am gaining weight over the recomp period from fri afternoon to sunday. I am sure some of it is water weight but it is frustrating none the less. I am 5 3 130 pounds eating around 1340 cal through the week . I get at least 4 cardio sessions during the week of 30 minutes or longer . and 3 weight lifting days.

Annie

Please toss out you scale, it will drive you nuts, especially on a cyclical ketogenic diet. I’ve seen weight shifts over a carb-up as little as 1 lb and as much as 14 lbs. But it’s all just water and glycogen (which makes up 5-7 lbs in an average person). Comparing your Fri (pre-carbup) to Mon (post-carbup) weights isn’t going to tell you anything meaningful about your body composition changes (the change in relative amounts of fat and lean body mass).

If you must use the scale, at least compare similar time points (such as pre-carbup to pre-carbup and post-carbup to post-carbup). That is, let’s say you’re driven (as I was during my Bodyopus experience) to weigh on Monday after your carb-up and Friday right before. YOu might see the following numbers over a few weeks.

Mon: 130 lbs

Fri: 125 lbs (most of which is dehydration, but some true fat loss)

Mon: 129 lbs (down 1 lb from previous Monday)

Fri: 124 lbs (down 1 lb from previous Friday)

Mon: 128 lbs

Fri: 123 lbs

Obviously comparing Mon to Fri is giving false values. But the overall trend is a downward loss of weight which is more accurate. I would suggest you invest in some bodyfat calipers (the best for the price are Slimguide calipers available from Health for Life) and take measurements of a few key skinfolds (such as abdominal, thigh and iliac, you’ll have to get a friend to measure your tricep). That will tell you what’s happening with your bodyfat levels.

Finally (whew), I would suggest you raise your calories during the week slightly to no less than 12 calories/lb. At 130 lbs, that would be 1560 calories. I’ve found that taking calories too low will result in a slowing of fat loss.

Ok here’s a pretty broad question:

What supplements(if any) do you feel are worth taking?

I supplement with:

Liquid creatine (from MMUSA, supposingly stable and doesnt break down into waste product creatinine) every work out day.

Vast2 (vanadyl sulfate, taurine, and selenium in selenate form) monthly cycles.

Mutiviamin / mineral / training nutrient packs.

100% Ion exchanged whey

And I’ve been thinking about either stacking the creatine with glutamine or disregarding both and the Vast2 and do a 6 week cycle of a norandro/androdiol stack

Weather it be a placebo effect or not I feel the current supplements help. Anyhow I would like to hear your opinions on supplements, especially the ones mentioned.

Thanks again

Jimmy

Basically you hit all of the ones that I think are worth taking (i.e. the only ones that have shown any real physiological effect in humans). Creatine works in most people (works = increases strength and bodyweight although most of it is water). I think a good multi-vitamin/mineral is good nutritional ‘insurance’ since nobody eats perfectly all the time. Whey protein is good, especially post workout, although I’m not convinced it will show a huge effect over a cheaper protein in a mass gaining phase. I think whey’s greatest potential will be on a dieting phase. Outside of that, I don’t think any of the other supplements currently available have any real use for bodybuilders or mass gains.

Oh, except for FRAC stacked with Gamma Oryzanol. Sorry, just kidding, had to throw that one in for any lifters who remember the supplements of the 80’s. Add some boron and you’ve got something.