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You are here: Home / Steroid Articles / Semaglutide and Tirzepatide are More Than Just Weight Loss Drugs

Semaglutide and Tirzepatide are More Than Just Weight Loss Drugs

November 8, 2023 by Type-IIx 166 Comments

Ozempic and Wegovy (semaglutide)

Estimated reading time: 9 minutes

Table of contents

  • Terminology (Key)
  • Recomp vs. Partitioning
  • Insulin resistance enhances fat loss (decreased FM), but at the expense of retention of LBM (thus is irrational for sane cutting)
  • Incretins: GLP-1 and GIP Agonists
  • Lipolytic Agents
  • Incretins, by Enhancing Insulin Sensitivity, Preserve Muscle Mass (FFMI and Skeletal Muscle Index) while Reducing Fat Mass Index
  • Insulin Sensitivity – What Does it Mean? Insulin Resistance ≠ Hyperglycemia
  • Exogenous Insulin Causes Insulin Resistance

Recomp (↑LBM and ↓FM) and Incretins (e.g., GLP-1 and GIP agonists like Semaglutide, Tirzepatide) vs. Insulin (exogenous) – Partitioning (the p-ratio) – Leptin and Insulin Sensitivity – Why Hyperglycemia ≠ Insulin Resistance, and How Incretins Preserve Muscle and Preferentially Reduce Fat Stores (i.e., Serving as Partitioning Agents)

Terminology (Key)

  • AA: amino acid
  • B.F.%.: body fat (as %)
  • FA: fatty acid
  • FFA: free fatty acid
  • FFMI: fat-free mass index (kg/m²; kg = body weight – (B.F. % * body weight) / height squared)
  • FM: fat mass
  • LBM: lean body mass (FFM: fat free mass, synonym)

Recomp vs. Partitioning

Recomp is a goal or desired outcome of a dietary and training (and drug) regimen, like cutting or bulking. Whereas fat loss (“Cutting”) is defined as decreased FM and retention of LBM, and muscle gain (“Bulking”) is defined as increased LBM and mitigating FM increases, Recomp is defined as increased LBM and decreased FM.

Partitioning is a concept that serves the goal of all rational dietary interventions. The p-ratio (partitioning ratio) describes protein deposited in LBM tissues relative to energy intake and, conversely, protein lost from LBM tissues relative to energy deficit. The p-ratio encompasses the factors of (i) hormone status (i.e., absolute levels of known key hormones), (ii) insulin sensitivity, and (iii) leptin sensitivity. There is an interplay between (i) – (iii).

Insulin sensitivity: when dieting (i.e., in a state of energy deficit), insulin resistance (the reciprocal of insulin sensitivity) enhances fat loss by limiting the muscle’s use of glucose for fuel – sparing glucose for use by the brain and ↑intramuscular FA utilization. When bulking, insulin sensitivity within muscle is good and in fat cells, bad.

Factors that affect insulin sensitivity include [1]:

  1. Body fat levels; B.F. % (primary predictor): ↑B.F. ⇒ ↑FA substrates for fuel (sparing glucose and protein [that can be used by the liver in gluconeogenesis]) and dictates adipokine signaling (i.e., adipocyte-secreting hormones [Leptin, TNF-α, IL-…, adiponectin, etc.]) ⇒ ↓insulin sensitivity
  2. Muscular contraction (i.e., activity, as e.g., locomotion, resistance training) ⇒ ↑glucose uptake into muscle cell; GLUT-4 translocation ⇒ ↑insulin sensitivity
  3. Diet: High carbohydrate (especially refined), saturated fat and low fiber ⇒ ↓insulin sensitivity
  4. Glycogen repletion or supercompensation ⇒ ↑glucose uptake and glycogenesis ⇒↑insulin sensitivity
  5. Glycogen depletion (e.g., during the period after an intense training bout, before feeding especially carbohydrates) ⇒ abolition (total depletion) of glucose availability and promotes FA oxidation after exhausting muscle glycogen stores (averaging < 700 g in adults) ⇒ ↑blood (circulating) FFAs ⇒ ↓insulin sensitivity
  6. Genetic factors partly modifiable by drugs, e.g., in cases of frank hypogonadism, testosterone replacement (TRT) clearly reverses insulin resistance in cases where the etiology of insulin resistance is traceable to testosterone deficiency.

Leptin is an adipokine hormone, secreted primarily by adipocytes (fat cells), that correlates with B.F.%, ↑B.F.% ⇒ ↑Leptin. (visceral vs. subcutaneous depots have different relationships to leptin). At any given B.F.%, women produce ~2 – 3X as much leptin vs. men. Leptin changes with energy restriction and overfeeding. Leptin is a primary energy storage regulatory signal that reflects: (i) B.F. % and (ii) energy intake.

Example 1: Upon initiating a diet, leptin may decline by 50% within 1 week (or less) – although obviously the dieter has not lost 50% B.F. – so acutely, leptin changes become unrelated to B.F. (rather signaling energy intake).

After the initial decline, there is a more gradual decline in leptin related to B.F.% loss.

Example 2: Upon overfeeding, leptin similarly ↑rapidly (i.e., without a relationship to ΔB.F.%, and instead is related to energy intake).

In the short term, leptin secretion is primarily determined by glucose availability – such that pulling glucose out of the fat cell (dieting) ⇒ ↓leptin and vice versa.

Leptin hormone’s site-specific effects include effects on the pancreas and liver, in skeletal muscle it ↑FA and ↓AA and glucose use as fuel substrates (enhancing fat loss, promoting protein sparing)… [1]

Essentially, partitioning (p-ratio) is a concept that couples leptin and insulin sensitivity as the principal factors that determine how changes in caloric intake and macronutrient content affect metabolism (influencing body composition profoundly) as well as hormonal status. We can tweak and enhance it, considering target tissue(s) and our goal (e.g., whether bulking vs. cutting).

Insulin resistance enhances fat loss (decreased FM), but at the expense of retention of LBM (thus is irrational for sane cutting)

First, do not confuse the enhancement of insulin resistance on fat loss with any judgment of insulin resistance being healthy. Insulin resistance, especially in a person who is sedentary, is associated with the metabolic syndrome, diabetes, not to mind central abdominal adiposity, etc.

Insulin resistance is a state wherein the body’s tissues (e.g., liver, pancreas, skeletal muscle) no longer recognizes the body’s insulin and continues to produce glucose in inappropriately high quantities. This state of hyperglycemia is an effect rather than the cause of insulin resistance, though toxic levels of glucose do degrade the pancreatic islet cells’ responsiveness to insulin as one pathway/mechanism of insulin resistance, feeding back to worsen insulin resistance.

Incretins: GLP-1 and GIP Agonists

Fat loss occurs with the GLP-1 and GIP agonists (incretins) — like Semaglutide, and Tirzepatide — that are true insulin sensitizing agents. Still, it is not insulin sensitivity per se that is responsible for fat loss by these incretin drugs – indeed high blood glucose in itself neither enhances fat gain nor inhibits fat loss – but rather, fat loss occurs due to the other effects of these drugs such as altered food preferences, delayed gastric emptying, satiation, that promote appetite control and reduce energy intake.

Incretins (GLP-1 and GIP agonists) directly enhance insulin sensitivity by modulating insulin secretion – coupling it to the presence of elevated glucose concentrations. This insulin secretion subsides as blood glucose concentrations decrease and approach euglycemia. Further, albeit indirectly, by reducing food intake, these drugs result in B.F.% reductions. The reduced B.F. % by reduced food intake then, reduce FM stores (and thereby, circulating FFAs), thereby further enhancing insulin sensitivity.

Lipolytic Agents

In fact, the vast majority of fat loss agents, as lipolytic agents, promote insulin resistance, e.g., β-agonists, stimulant drugs like caffeine and ephedrine, these all either act analogously to or increase the action of catecholamines (epinephrine and norepinephrine, or adrenaline and noradrelanine).

When tissues like the liver and fat cells fail to be stimulated by insulin, glucose is not taken up by the cells. Without glucose, the liver begins to metabolize free-fatty acids (FFAs), thereby increasing ketone levels in the blood, preventing them from being re-esterified into fat cells. In liver and fat cells, without insulin being taken up into these tissues, there is suppression of fat synthesis/lipogenesis (adipocyte) and very-low density lipoprotein (VLDL) synthesis (liver).

Let’s not forget the brain; when systemic blood glucose is elevated, it’ll constantly have its favored energy source and keep us alive. We like that.

Incretins, by Enhancing Insulin Sensitivity, Preserve Muscle Mass (FFMI and Skeletal Muscle Index) while Reducing Fat Mass Index

Making the case for classification of incretins as partitioning agents:

This might all sound perfectly rosy, but we like how the GLP-1 and GIP agonists (e.g., tirzepatide, semaglutide) work because insulin resistance during caloric restriction in skeletal muscle (>60% of body weight, more in bodybuilders) is sort of a scary image, glycogen stores are first catabolized quite rapidly; then intramuscular triglyceride (comprising a mere 1% of wet muscle weight, up to 2% of volume since fat is less dense than skeletal muscle, and ~1/3 of muscle energy since fat is energy dense), and eventually, if the body has to, it will use AA (by catabolizing muscle proteins; proteolysis) for energy to perform work. These agents, then, insofar as they are insulin sensitizing, should serve to promote retention of LBM during cutting.

Indeed, we can see from this Figure from a 2022 research article by Volpe and colleagues [1] that semaglutide quite effectively preserves LBM and preferentially reduces FM with only clinically insignificant reductions in the fat-free mass index (FFMI, kg/m²) and skeletal muscle index during the early adaptation period, that tapers off thereafter:

Semaglutide quite effectively preserves LBM and preferentially reduces FM with only clinically insignificant reductions in muscle mass

In no small sense, then, by enhancing the insulin sensitivity term of the p-ratio equation, incretins may be fairly classified as partitioning agents, like clenbuterol – but rather than promoting insulin resistance like clenbuterol and its class members, incretins enhance insulin sensitivity and come with far fewer serious side effects.

Insulin Sensitivity – What Does it Mean? Insulin Resistance ≠ Hyperglycemia

It can be very confusing to those familiar with these concepts from bodybuilding discussions that hyperglycemia (elevated blood glucose) is but one factor that is associated with insulin resistance, but is not actually synonymous with insulin resistance (hyperglycemia ≠ insulin resistance). Yes, reducing blood glucose to normal levels is very important in order to improve insulin sensitivity while using exogenous growth hormone (rhGH) because glucose is toxic to the pancreatic β cells. This glucotoxicity at these pancreatic cells results in diminished insulin secretory response to hyperglycemia, thereby fueling the fire of hyperglycemia and glucotoxicity, contributing to insulin resistance – but not constituting the sole etiology of it.

Insulin sensitivityis multifactorial and comprises systemic (e.g., QUICKI) and peripheral (e.g., GLUT-4) components, and is regulated centrally by GLP-1 and GIP. Hyperglycemia is but one factor (the other being insulin) that serves as a proxy for systemic insulin resistance. There are other aspects, including carbohydrate tolerance, etc.

Exogenous Insulin Causes Insulin Resistance

Exogenous insulin reduces blood glucose and thereby prevents this glucotoxicity but actually causes insulin resistance.

Endogenous insulin is secreted in a pulsatile (quick burst) fashion to regulate growth and metabolism, unlike testosterone that is secreted in a more steady-state fashion (gradual release into the blood; but subject to diurnal variations, e.g., more secretion in the morning than midday/evening). Chronic insulin elevations, e.g., those that are germane to the release profile of a daily low dose of insulin glargine (Lantus), possess a relatively large area-under-the-curve (AUC) due to the release profile (high concentrations on long time frames) vs. normal-healthy endogenous insulin release profiles (comparable to regular insulin pharmacokinetics, e.g., Actrapid, Novolin or HumuLin -R). That large AUC of Lantus and/or moderately-high and frequent exogenous regular insulin doses are described as chronic hyperinsulinemia.

This resistance does not occur by negative feedback at the β cell level.

Instead, what occurs with chronic hyperinsulinemia that causes insulin resistance is multifactorial and includes:

  • 1. Increasing HOMA-IR and decreasing QUICKI (biochemical measures of insulin resistance and insulin sensitivity, respectively)
  • 2. Impaired insulin signal transduction due to receptor (IR) dysfunction and diminished autophosphorylation of the IR, thereby blocking GLUT-4 translocation to the cell surface in muscle and fat cells, meaning more glucose in blood [2]:
Signaling of insulin during insulin resistance.
  • 3. Increasing sn-1,2-diacylglycerol (DAG) levels and activity due to de novo synthesis.

References

[1] McDonald, L. The Ultimate Diet 2.0: Advanced Cyclical Dieting for Achieving Super Leanness. (2003). Lyle McDonald Publishing.

[2] Volpe S, Lisco G, Racaniello D, Fanelli M, Colaianni V, Vozza A, Triggiani V, Sabbà C, Tortorella C, De Pergola G, Piazzolla G. Once-Weekly Semaglutide Induces an Early Improvement in Body Composition in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes: A 26-Week Prospective Real-Life Study. Nutrients. 2022 Jun 10;14(12):2414. doi: 10.3390/nu14122414.

[3] Kolb H, Kempf K, Röhling M, Martin S. Insulin: too much of a good thing is bad. BMC Med. 2020;18(1):224. Published 2020 Aug 21. doi:10.1186/s12916-020-01688-6

About the author

Type-IIx
Type-IIx

Type-IIx is a physique coach, author, and researcher. Bolus: A Practical Guide and Reference for recombinant Human Growth Hormone Use will be his first published textbook, anticipated for release in early 2023. Ampouletude.com will be Type-IIx's base of operations for coaching services and publications. Type-IIx is proud to be a contributing writer to MesoRx, his home forum, where he is a regular poster.

Filed Under: Steroid Articles

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Avatar of Type-IIx Type-IIx Nov 08, 2023 #1

Thanks, Millard!

New article for the Meso readership!j In this article, I make the case for incretin drugs as (note: mild!) partitioning agents.

I do not intend to make the case that incretins are as potent as Clen (clenbuterol HCl) which is, per-mg, more potent than testosterone in its anabolic effects (and enhancement of muscle power & strength and sprint perofrmance) albeit subject to a rapid diminution in this effect with time (due to β₂AR tachyphylaxis or desensitization), and subject to a threshold or ceiling at which side effects outweight benefits.

I do not intend to make the case that incretin drugs can overcome severe energy deficits (i.e., kcal restriction) & protein deficiency to enhance recomp or cutting!

Sections:
1. Recomp vs. Partitioning, and the concept of the p-ratio explained, including explanations of insulin resistance vs. sensitivity and the importance of leptin and hormones
2. Incretins: GLP-1 & GIP agonists, and how they serve to enhance insulin sensitivity
4. Lipolytic agents: why drugs like clen & stimulants like ephedrine work for fat loss although they cause insulin resistance
5. Evidence that incretins enhance body composition by maintaining FFMI & skeletal muscle index & preferentially reduce fat stores, even in instances devoid of resistance training and controlled nutritional adherence to high protein ingestion & modest deficits (that you must practice for any substantial recomp effect)
6. Distinction between insulin resistance & hyperglycemia (common bodybuilding misunderstandings of IR)
7. How exogenous insulin (slin) worsens insulin sensitivity despite ameliorating hyperglycemia.

Reply 14 likes

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Avatar of AlexDavis43 AlexDavis43 Nov 11, 2023 #2

Great article, thanks.

This part: "Insulin resistance enhances fat loss (decreased FM), but at the expense of retention of LBM (thus is irrational for sane cutting)."

Insulin resistance in adipocytes, yes, but that happens long after skeletal muscle insulin resistance. So it is somewhat misleading or missing necessary context details.

So long after you get obese, a mechanism to prevent you from keep getting obeser.

Reply 2 likes

Avatar of AlexDavis43 AlexDavis43 Nov 11, 2023 #3

"When tissues like the liver and fat cells fail to be stimulated by insulin, glucose is not taken up by the cells. Without glucose, the liver begins to metabolize free-fatty acids (FFAs), thereby increasing ketone levels in the blood, preventing them from being re-esterified into fat cell"

But this is in obesity, and doesn't lead to fat loss. And obese people aren't in ketosis. What's the disconnect(s) here?

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Avatar of AlexDavis43 AlexDavis43 Nov 11, 2023 #4

Interesting comparison of testosterone and insulin. Testosterone undecanoate is all the rage these days for TRT but it is the complete opposite of circadian rhythms of testosterone exposure.

100% convenience, 0% physiology

First phase insulin response is seems to fail early in the etiology of T2DM.

Reply 2 likes

Avatar of Spaceman Spiff Spaceman Spiff Nov 11, 2023 #5

As always I appreciate the articles.

I have been on Tirzepatide 7.5mg a week for some time. I re-added growth and on a low dose cycle. 200 test, 300 mast and am noticing some phenomenal size growth.

Reply 10 likes

Avatar of Type-IIx Type-IIx Nov 11, 2023 #6

Very astute reading! I think that the disconnect is that you may be coming from the perspective of thinking in terms of disease states (e.g., the factors involved in the "deadly triad" and T2DM) whereas this article is aimed at drug effects (i.e., lipolytic agents; e.g., rhGH & its stimulating HSL). Specifically, when I write this, I am taking aim at those who advocate for frequent rhGH administration rather than infrequent because IR "benefits" lipolysis.

The latter point with respect to ketosis, that more describes DKA. But, doesn't ketosis to some degree lead to some incrementally greater fat loss as a result of this process?

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Avatar of AlexDavis43 AlexDavis43 Nov 12, 2023 #7

Thank you, sir.

Ketosis means elevated hepatic partial fatty acid oxidation which doesn't contribute as much quantitatively to total body fat oxidation as skeletal muscle [complete] fatty acid oxidation.

I think I agree but people in ketosis can be in positive energy balance and gain body fat (so fat loss is likely but not guaranteed).

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Avatar of Type-IIx Type-IIx Nov 12, 2023 #8

Yes, we probably agree since I agree that energy state is always controlling; and certainly in obesity, fat loss will not occur as a result of ketosis per se.

Reply 2 likes

M MB101 Nov 13, 2023 #9

I was considering something similar but wasn’t sure if I’d be able to get in my calories. Figured I would have to drop the Tirz if I cant eat right. How is feeding going are you in a small surplus.

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Avatar of Spaceman Spiff Spaceman Spiff Nov 13, 2023 #10

going on a small surplus. I typically go protein heavy if anything.

it does feel like the GH is keeping glycogen load high for sure

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Avatar of Spaceman Spiff Spaceman Spiff Nov 13, 2023 #11

If does seem like a safer option than tren for a non competitor/harm reduction (although pricier)

Reply Like

S Saints2016 Nov 18, 2023 #12

Curious how much you’re eating? Is it curbing your appetite and you need to force feed yourself?

Reply Like

Avatar of Spaceman Spiff Spaceman Spiff Nov 18, 2023 #13

I can control it

Reply 1 like

Avatar of Musmadar Musmadar Nov 19, 2023 #14

I am on a path to become type II diabetic (prediabetic)...
Your scheme of PED's seems the way to adopt for me.
Just wanted to let you know that I'm interested in your progress.

Reply Like

Avatar of Jin23 Jin23 Nov 22, 2023 #15

Don't you find the statement that glp-1 agonist are "true insulin sensitizing agents" or that they "improve insulin sensitivity" too misleading?

A true insulin sensitizing agent (like cinnamon for example) would either increase the number of insulin receptors or improve the signaling pathway downstream of the insulin receptor, thus enhancing the cell's response to insulin. Per my knowledge, GLP-1's don't increase GLUT-4 translocation, phosphorylation and they don't enhance PI3K, AKT, etc. nor do they really inhibit the activity of enzymes or processes that work against insulin signaling. The only MOA of indirectly improving insulin sensitivity seems to be a reduction in inflammation, due to a decrease in proinflammatory cytokines (and possibly some microbiome alterations).

An increase in insulin sensitivity implies that per the same unit of insulin, we would see improvements in BG control, so either insulin sensitivity is a more encompassing term than I'm imagining or the term is being used too liberal. Wouldn't you agree that a term like "increasing insulin signaling" is more appropriate or just "improving glucose control"?

Putting it simply, is this just a case of perspective, ie. if one is only monitoring BG levels, a reduction of BG would imply increased insulin sensitivity, but if one was to monitor BG and fasting insulin levels (or perform OGTT with insulin monitoring), "increased insulin sensitivity" would not be the conclusion one would derive at ...

Interested in your thoughts.

Reply 3 likes

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Avatar of 29trt 29trt Nov 22, 2023 #16

Sorry to butt in but from my personal experimentation on exactly this topic I can safely say that semaglutide is not insulin sensitising in any way except indirectly by reducing calorie intake.
with 1mg/week during months I kept the same calorie intake and mantained the same weight and guess what... my fasted BG stayed the same and so did my postprandial taken at 30min intervals for 2h...
As soon as I decreased carb intake I immediately saw BG nb. drop.
Would a higher dose produce the same results..? maybe... wll have to try that some other time

the claims made are also contradictory as they imply insulin sensitising and in the same breath say that it stimulates insulin production so even if it is increasing insulin sensitivity by some mechanisms the effect is counteracted by more insulin production... which might help a T2D pacient... hence why it was originally designed for...

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