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You are here: Home / Steroid Articles / The 2-On, 4-Off Steroid Cycle: A Case Study

The 2-On, 4-Off Steroid Cycle: A Case Study

February 1, 1999 by Bill Roberts Leave a Comment

Rear Lat Spread - Before and After - Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)

The previous report made of results seen from the 2-on, 4-off cycle did not include any blood work, nor were there any “before” photos taken, and thus there were no “before and after” photos. Numerous readers were interested in learning more about this type of cycle, so a subject who was going to do such a cycle anyway (whom we will call Jim Kenyon) was asked if he would get blood tests during the cycle and provide photos. These photos were not to be like those seen in the muscle magazines: he was to try just as hard to look good in the “before” photos as in the “after” photos, instead of appearing defeated, dejected, untanned, slouched, unflexed, with bad posture in the “before” pictures. Using such tricks, no gains can be made to look like amazing gains, and that kind of deception was something we wished to avoid. This article, and future updates, will chronicle the results obtained by this athlete using this cycle plan.

Subject

Jim is 26 years old and has been training regularly since his teens. I consider him to be an intelligent lifter who has generally followed good training plans and has been reasonably consistent in his training, allowing only a few off weeks every now and then. He probably was fairly close to his natural limit when starting this program – I would not have expected him to be able to gain more than perhaps 3 lb over the next year with natural training. He was in his all-time best condition at the time of starting the program, with his bench press, lean body weight, and bodyfat all at best-ever levels. A year previously, he had done an 8 week cycle with only trenbolone acetate and Primobolan, and had since done two light cycles with only Dianabol. His goals were to reduce bodyfat still further while increasing muscle size and muscularity, and to achieve a “Muscle Media” type of look, suitable for the beach or night clubs, not the competitive stage. Furthermore, because of his job, no drastic sustained gains in bodyweight would be acceptable. Rather, weight gains needed to be fairly moderate but with body composition improvements.

Thus, the 2-on, 4-off cycle was particularly suitable for Jim. A traditional 8 week cycle such as he had done before would either have been rather ineffective for muscle gains were he trying also to lose fat during the cycle, or would have resulted in excessive weight gain and failure to lose fat (a primary goal) if he ate enough to obtain good muscle growth. The alternating plan allows him to make good gains for two weeks, though not to a suspicious degree if he takes care to dress in loose clothing, and then to lose fat over the next four weeks, and then to repeat the plan as many times as necessary. Furthermore, it will allow good retention of gains, which is important to him, since he does not plan to use steroids indefinitely.

Drug Plan

The following is, verbatim, the drug plan that Jim wrote out before the cycle began, using articles previously presented on Meso-Rx as his guide (though these are actually presented for informational purposes, not as advice.) Thus far, he has followed it exactly, except that he failed to use 10 mg Dianabol five times per day, but instead took only 5 mg five times per day. I expect that this change probably cost him a couple of pounds of gains.

A number of abbreviations were used in his plan. “TA” is trenbolone acetate injectable. “D” or “Diana” is Dianabol. “Clo” is Clomid. “Cyt” is Cytadren. “Oxandr” is oxandrolone. The abbreviation “tid” means three times per day.

Program

Throughout the first five weeks: 50 mg/day Clo (two capsules), except Day 1 is 300 mg in six divided doses.

In first two weeks, 200 g/day protein more than usual, but hold fat and carbs moderate enough to avoid significant if any fat gain. In the following four weeks, diet the first three, and diet or use maintenance calories for the fourth, in all cases keeping protein at least 180 g/day.

Day 1: 100 mg (200 IU) TA in morning. 10 mg D five times per day in divided doses, which might include middle of the night if I awake briefly enough to have a pre-made Met-Rx. Cyt: 125 mg (half tab) on arising and 62.5 mg six and then twelve hours later.

Days 3-11: 50 mg (100 IU) TA/day, 250 mg Cyt as above, and 50 mg Diana as above.

Days 12-14: No TA, but otherwise same as days 3-11.

Weeks 3 and 4: Diana 10 mg on arising, and 10 mg four hours later. Cyt ½ tab on arising, and oxandr 20 mg on arising.

Week 5: same, but on basis of blood test, Cyt may be dropped if estradiol levels were below normal.

Week 6: Clean, unless T was not above normal in blood test at end of week 4, in which case Clo use will be continued in week 6.

Supplement use: In weeks 3-6, Androdiol 300 mg one or 1.5 h before workouts – not in the evening. If in the morning or early afternoon, an additional 300 mg after workout would be okay. Ephedrine and caffeine optional while dieting.

Workout Plan

The following is Jim’s workout plan as I wrote it for him before he began the cycle. In all cases, Jim did his negatives at approximately a four second tempo (real seconds, not fast count), except for the Louie Simmons speed-style benching, the 1RM attempts, and warmups for 1RM attempts.

Supersets of unrelated or antagonistic body parts were used quite often in this program, because the amount of time available to Jim for training was quite limited and needed to be put to the most use possible.

The reason that it lacks any squats or deadlifts is that Jim has to work around a chronic back injury.

Weeks 1 and 2:

Monday

Five sets (each leg) of single leg calf raise, with weight allowing only 6 reps or so.

Little or no rest between sets.

Volume training. 10 sets of 10, supersetted. Go almost immediately from one exercise to next.

1) Incline DB Bench: about 60% estimated 1RM

2) Single legged calf raise (left) a weight you could do 20 reps with if fresh, but do 10

3) Yates Rows, weight allowing 10 reps (leaning forwards only 20 degrees not 90 degrees, barbell is pulled to beltline, shoulders are kept down towards hips NOT shrugged, scapulae are retracted, back is arched, lats are tensed at top of motion.)

4) Single legged calf raise (right)

Repeat ten times.

Optionally, additional biceps work

Tuesday

(rest between sets is ok)

Seated leg curl, 2 sets, allowing about 7 reps (about 76% 1RM)

Leg Extension: 2 sets, allowing 8 or 9 reps

Lying leg curl: 2 sets, allowing about 7 reps

Leg Extension: 2 sets, same weight

Volume training:

Hack Squat: 5 sets of 6 with about 80% 1RM, or a weight you could do 10 reps with. Take 60-90 seconds rest. (Note: count ¾ of bodyweight as part of the weight.)

Hack Squat: 5 sets of 10 with about 60% 1RM, or a weight you could do (if fresh) 20 reps for one set.

Abs according to his own ab program

Back extensions

Wednesday

Seated DB overhead press, weight allowing 7-8 reps, three sets.

Seated Barbell overhead press for 7 or 8 reps, three sets

Smith overhead press for 7 or 8 reps. three sets

Thursday

Chin ups, enough sets for 20-40 reps total

Lat Pulldown to lower chest, leaning back: 3 sets

Yates Rows, heavier weight, allowing only 8 reps or so, 3 sets.

Incline bench one-arm DB rows

Friday

Superset:three times. Some rest between sets

Flat DB Bench, weight allowing 7-8 reps

DB Curls (standing or incline), ditto

Standing calf raise, heavier weight allowing only 8 reps or so if fresh (getting 6 reps on supersets)

Superset three times:

Flat Bench: ditto, weight allowing 7-8 reps

Standing Barbell curls

Standing calf raise, heavier weight

Superset three times:

Butterflys or crossovers, weight allowing 7-8 reps

Reverse Barbell curls, about 2/3 weight used for barbell curls

More calf work if it seems appropriate

Saturday

Abs according to his own ab program

In week two, use about 10% more weight, but same workout program.

Weeks 3 and 4

Generally, same weight as week 2 unless reps were higher than planned that week, or fewer sets are being done this week. If 10 sets of 10 were done, use about 1/3 more weight than that this week.

Monday

Five sets (each leg) of single leg calf raise, with weight allowing only 6 reps or so. Little or no rest between sets. Or preferably substitute some other calf exercise, e.g. on leg press machine.

5 sets of approximately 5 or 6, supersetted. About a minute between sets.

1) Single legged calf raise (left) for the weight used for 6 reps or so

2) Yates Rows: about 1/3 more than used for 10 sets of 10 on week 2

3) Single legged calf raise (right)

4) Chin ups or pull ups

Repeat five times

Then, 5 more sets of single legged calf raises, or preferably the substitute exercise.

Then, 2 sets incline bench one arm DB rows.

Tuesday

Seated Barbell overhead press 1RM : 130 for 5, 140 for 4, 150 for 3, 160 for 2, 170 for 1, 175 for 1, then if possible 180 for 1 etc. Allow 4 minutes between sets.

Seated DB overhead press, weight allowing 7-8 reps, two sets

Smith overhead press: two sets, 7 or 8 reps

Bench Press with 60% 1RM, 8 sets of 3 explosive reps, with 45 s rest between sets. Quick but tight, controlled negatives (about 1 s), momentary pause, and tight explosive positives. (Note: This means scapulae stay pulled in, shoulders stay pulled down towards hips and on bench and do NOT rise off of bench at all, lats stay tensed.)

Abs

Wednesday

Seated leg curl: 2 sets

Leg Extension: 2 sets

Lying leg curl: 2 sets

Leg Extension: what else but 2 sets.

Hack Squat: 5 sets of 6 or so with a little more weight than in week 2 (where you did 10 sets.)

Back extensions

Calves, 2 sets of high reps (about 20 reps).

Thursday

Off

Friday

Flat bench: 205 for 5, 220 for 4, 235 for 3, 250 for 2, 265 for 1, 270 or 275 for 1, etc. Allow 4 minutes between sets.

Superset:three times. Some rest between sets

Incline DB Bench, probably with 85s (1/3 heavier than used for 10 sets of 10)

Standing calf raise, 6 reps or so.

DB Curls (standing or incline)

Standing calf raise

Superset three times:

Decline Bench or Dips

Standing calf raise

Reverse Barbell curls, about 2/3 weight used for barbell curls

Standing calf raise

Saturday

Abs

Cardio if desired.

Sunday

Off, or cardio if desired.

Weeks 5 and 6

Similar to weeks 3 and 4 except use 60% 1RM for fewer sets in week 5, and about 68% 1RM in week 6, and don’t do 1 rep max pyramids.

Results

After two weeks, Jim has made gains that he is very pleased with, and with essentially no or very minimal fat gains. He may even have lost fat, because he reports that his pants fit more loosely; however, the tape measure reports a ¼” gain in waist size (but that could easily be a measurement error.) He was particularly excited about his gains on the bench press of 35 lb over his previous personal best, and I expect him to do 315 or better after his next cycle, which he almost certainly would never have obtained naturally.

The “before” and “after” photos tell the story after two weeks:

Side Chest - Before and After - Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)
Side Chest – Before and After – Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)
Rear Lat Spread - Before and After - Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)
Rear Lat Spread – Before and After – Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)
Front Lat Spread - Before and After - Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)
Front Lat Spread – Before and After – Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)
Front Double Biceps - Before and After - Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)
Front Double Biceps – Before and After – Week 1 (left) vs Week 3 (right)
Bodypart / Parameter Starting During week 3 Improvement
Neck 14 7/8″ 15 3/8″ 1/2″
Biceps 15 3/8″ 16″ 5/8″
Chest 40 3/8″ 41 ¾” 1 3/8″
Waist 33″ 33 ¼” no significant change
Thigh 22 1/8″ 23 1/8″ 1″
Calves 14 7/8″ 15 3/8″ ½”
Weight 175 lb 188 lb 13 lb
% Bodyfat 9.5% (n/a) no significant change
Seat Mil Press 165 lb 190 lb 25 lb
Bench Press 260 lb 295 lb 35 lb

The blood test results were good. Jim started with normal values for testosterone, estradiol, all hepatic function tests, and blood lipid profile. Immediately after the two week point, he had a follow-up test. Everything remained normal except for his blood testosterone, which had dropped from 429 ng/dL to 50 ng/dL (normal range is 240-830 ng/dL), and AST, ALT, and CPK values were elevated – however, this was to be expected and is not harmful, except that of course we would not wish the testosterone level to remain so low but to return to normal quickly. The Clomid and reduction of androgen use to a very light level should allow this to occur, and in fact, Jim reports that towards the end of week 3 he felt as if he had plenty of androgen in his system in the evenings and on arising, though that of course is a subjective evaluation. Testosterone levels should prove normal and preferably higher than the starting value in the blood tests to be done after week 4.

Estrogen levels remained normal, but were elevated compared to the starting value: from 24.6 pg/mL to 41 pg/mL (normal range: 0-56 pg/mL). This change is of questionable significance: it might be due to difference in measurement, not to any actual increase, or it might represent a small increase from the usage of Dianabol, despite the use of Cytadren as an antiaromatase.

Cholesterol values did not change substantially, and some parameters were even improved. I attribute this to the use of Clomid, which exerts an estrogenic (not anti-estrogenic) effect with regard to blood cholesterol that is beneficial. (Clomid is anti-estrogenic in some tissues, and estrogenic in others.)

Total cholesterol was reduced from 170 to 162, triglycerides from 128 to 104, and VLDL from 26 to 16. These changes are beneficial though perhaps insignificantly so. HDL also was reduced, from 26 to 24, and LDL was increased from 118 to 126. These changes are not beneficial, though again the measured changes are so small that they may be insignificant. We may conclude that the two week cycle, with use of Clomid, did not result in any significant worsening of blood lipid profile, and may have resulted in improvement of some parameters. This is in contrast to what is seen with traditional cycles where Clomid is not used and blood lipid profiles usually worsen dramatically.

Workouts

Jim recorded his workouts in a journal (a recommended practice), entered it into his computer, and e-mailed me the information. Here are his exact workouts. They followed the original plan exactly, except that he decided to add additional mid-week calf work. Whether this was necessary or beneficial or not, I cannot say, but results were good.

Monday, 1/11/99. Week One.

Standing calf raises single legged (note: on this day and this day only, range of motion was not complete because of not having a correct piece of equipment to stand on.) 5 sets of 8 reps at 60lbs volume training, 10 reps per set. Superset ten times.

5 sets of 8 reps at 60lbs

volume training, 10 reps per set. Superset ten times.

1) incline db press: 55lbs

2) single legged calf raise (left) at 45lbs

3) db rows 45lbs

3) single legged calf raise (right) at 45lbs

biceps

bb curl

1) 10reps at 65lbs

2) 10 reps at 65bs

3) 10 reps at 55lbs

reverse curls

1) 18 reps at 35lbs

2) 15 reps at 35lbs

incline db curls

1) 10 reps at 20 lbs

2) 10 reps at 20lbs

Tuesday

Seated leg curl: 2 sets of 8 reps at 90 lb.

leg extension: 2sets of 10 reps at 70lbs

leg curl: 2 sets of 8 reps at 90 lbs

leg extension: 2 sets of 10 reps at 90lbs

volume training

hack squat: 5 sets of 6 reps at 190lbs

hack squats: 5 sets of 10 reps at 140lbs

abs

hanging leg raise, 2 sets

decline jackknife, 4 sets

rope crunch, 4 sets

crunches, 4 sets

back extensions, 3 sets, bodyweight

Wednesday

seated db overhead press: 3 sets of 8 reps at 65lbs

seated bb overhead press: 3 sets of 8 reps at 130lbs

smith overhead press: 3 sets of 8 reps at 140lbs

Thursday

Chin-ups: 28 reps total (7 or 8 sets)

lat pulldown: 3 sets of 10 reps at 130lbs

yates rows: 3 sets of 12 reps at 85lbs

db rows (supported by incline bench): 3 sets of 10 reps at 55lbs

Friday

superset 3 times

incline db bench: 8 reps of 75lbs

db curls: 8 reps of 30 lbs

leg press calves: 20 reps at 180 lbs (Note from WR: this was bad planning in my opinion. When reps are this high, fewer sets should be done, only two or three total. Jim should have used a weight allowing only 10 reps.)

superset 3 times

flat db press: 8 reps of 70lbs

standing bb curl: 8 reps of 70 lbs

leg press calves: 20 reps of 180lbs

superset 3 times

crossovers: 8 reps of 60lbs

reverse curls: 8 reps of 40lbs

Saturday

abs

hanging leg raise, 2 sets

decline jackknife, 4 sets

rope crunch, 4 sets

crunches, 4 sets

Sunday: off

Monday. Week Two.

Standing calf raises single legged

5 sets of 8 reps at 60lbs

Superset ten times

incline db press: 10reps of 60lbs

standing calves, left: 10 reps at 40lbs

yates rows: 10 reps at 135lbs

standing calves, right: 10 reps at 40 lbs

biceps

standing bb curl: 3 sets of 10 reps at 60 lbs

Tuesday

seated leg curls: 2 sets of 8 reps at 100lbs

leg extensions: 2 sets of 8 reps at 110lbs

leg curls: 2 sets of 8 reps at 100lbs

leg extensions: 2 sets of 10 reps at 110 lbs

volume training

hack squats: 5 sets of 7 reps at 210lbs

hack squats: 5 sets of 10 reps at 160lbs

abs

hanging leg raise, 2 sets

decline jackknife, 4 sets

rope crunch, 4 sets

crunches, 4 sets

back extensions, 3 sets, bodyweight

Wednesday

seated db overhead press :3 sets of 8 reps at 70 lbs

seated bb overhead press: 3 sets of 8 reps at 140lbs

smith overhead press: 3 sets of 8 reps at 150lbs

Thursday

Chin-ups: 31 reps (7 or 8 sets)

lat pulldown: 3 sets of 8 reps at 140lbs

yates rows: 3 sets of 8 reps at 145lbs

db rows, incline bench: 3 sets of 8 reps at 60lbs

Friday

Superset three times

flat db bench: 8 reps at 85 lbs

calf raises standing, left: 8 reps at 55lbs

db curls: 8 reps at 30 lbs

calf raises standing, right: 8 reps at 55 lbs

superset three times

flat db bench: 8 reps at 75lbs

standing bb curl: 8 reps at 80lbs

standing calves, left then right: 8 reps at 55lbs

superset three times

crossovers: 10 reps at 60 lbs

reverse curls: 10 reps at 50lbs

seated calves: 8 reps at 90lbs (Note from WR: this should have been done at higher reps, say 14-20, because the soleus, which this exercise targets, is predominantly slow-twitch.)

Saturday

abs

hanging leg raise, 2 sets

decline jackknife, 4 sets

rope crunch, 4 sets

crunches, 4 sets

Sunday: Off

Monday. Week Three.

seated calves: 5 sets of 8 reps at 110 lbs

superset five times, for 6 reps each exercise:

1) standing calves, left: 55lbs

2) yates rows: 150lbs

3) standing calves, right: 55lbs

4) chinups: BW, for 8 reps not 6

leg press calves: 5 sets of 8reps with 225lbs

incline db rows: 2 sets of 10 reps at 60lbs

Tuesday

seated bb overhead press

5 reps at 135lbs

4 reps at 155lbs

3 reps at 175lbs

1 rep at 185lbs

1 rep at 190lbs (note from WR: this was a picture perfect weight progression for this 1RM measurement.)

seated db press: 2 sets of 8 reps with 70lbs

smith overhead press: 2 sets of 8 reps with 160lbs

bench press, explosive, Louie Simmons

8 sets of 3 reps with 170 lbs with 45 seconds rest

ab workout: same as before

Wednesday

seated leg curl: 2 sets of 8 reps with 110lbs

leg extension: 2 sets of 10 reps with 120lbs

seated leg curls: 2 sets of 8 reps with 110 lbs

leg extension: 2 sets of 10 reps with 120 lbs

hack squats: 5 sets of 6 reps with 220lbs

hyperextensions

2 sets of 12 reps

seated calves

2 sets of 8 reps with 110 lbs (note from WR: again, reps should have been higher.)

Thursday: off

Friday

flat bench

5 reps at 215lbs

4 reps at 235lbs

3 reps at 255lbs

1 rep at 275lbs

1 rep at 295lbs

(Note from WR: a better progression would have been 205 for 5, 225 for 4, 245 for 3, 265 for 2, 285 for 1, 295 for 1.)

supersets 3sets

incline db bench: 8 reps at 90lbs

standing one legged calves, left: 10 reps at 60 lbs

db curls incline: 8 reps at 30 lbs

standing one legged calves, right: 10 reps at 60lbs

superset 3 times

dips: bodyweight, 12 reps

standing calves, left then right: 10 reps at 60lbs

superset 3 times

reverse curls:10 reps at 60lbs

standing calves, left then right: 10 reps at 60 lbs

Saturday

ab workout, same as before

Summary

With two weeks of fairly moderate steroid usage, and one week thus far of light usage which has avoided losses but caused no further gains, Jim has achieved size and strength improvements he is very pleased with. It will take several such cycles, however, for him to meet his ultimate goals. (No one can really expect that just two weeks of use, alone, will effect a complete transformation.) Jim’s results from two weeks of moderate use are probably more than he could have obtained in four years without any drug use, that estimate being made based on his previous experiences.

Blood test results are good, although we need to see if testosterone levels return to normal or above normal during the next two weeks, as expected. It will also be interesting to see if the elevated liver enzyme values (which are harmless and to be expected) will remain the same, or will be reduced as a consequence of using orals only in the morning.

Over the next three weeks, Jim hopes to lose a few pounds of fat while maintaining all or nearly all of his muscle gains. In my opinion, however, if he loses two pounds of bodyweight for each pound of fat lost, that result would be quite typical and would be good, and his gains are sufficient to accommodate that.

Future updates on Jim’s progress will be briefer, and will probably be made every two weeks for the next couple of months or so.

Progress Updates

The 2-On, 4-Off Steroid Cycle: A Case Study – Week 4 of Jim’s Experiment

The 2-On, 4-Off Steroid Cycle: A Case Study – Week 6 of Jim’s Experiment

About the author

Bill Roberts
Medicinal chemist

Bill Roberts is an internationally-recognized expert on anabolic steroids and performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs). He received a bachelor degree in Microbiology and Cell Science and completed the educational and research requirements for a PhD in Medicinal Chemistry at a major American university.

Bill entered the nutritional supplement industry prior to completing his doctoral thesis but his education was invaluable so far as being able to design/improve nutritional supplement compounds, since it was in the field of designing drug molecules and secondarily some work in transdermal delivery.

His education was not specifically "geared" toward anabolic steroids other than expertise with pharmacological principles having broad applications. This has allowed Bill to provide unique insight into the field of anabolic pharmacology with knowledge of points which he would not have known otherwise.

Filed Under: Steroid Articles

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S STEFMAN Sep 02, 2011 #1

The 2 on 4 off idea I believe is very good to me
Weeks 1 & 2:
100mg each of test prop, mast prop, tren ace per 2 days
(frontload day 1, last injection day 11) (+ dianabol 30mg / d week 1-2 and 20mg for weeks 3-5)
arimidex as necessary

Week 3:
hgh 5iu / d 5 days on and 2 days off for weeks 3-6
300mg of clomid day 1, 50 mg days 2-7

Week 4:
Continue 50mg of clomid per day if necessary

Week 6:
Clean

My goal is after a few such cycles (4-6) to have some muscular pounds .. (12-18 ..)

Does my template make sense to you? Is my drug choice optimal considering my goals?

Thanks for your time

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Avatar of Bill Roberts Bill Roberts Sep 02, 2011 #2

Apologies, I think what happened is that I read your post, got distracted and for some reason on returning opened another window, thought I'd replied but didn't.

I would adjust it in only this regard. No Dianabol in weeks 3 to 5. I used to advocate it years back and programs can work this way, true, but over time lab results from those using the low dose morning-only Dianabol in recovery showed slower recovery of natural T. Despite the fact that when a cycle hadn't been done previously, such use is low-suppressive.

Apparently, it's more of an issue when coming out of suppression.

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S STEFMAN Sep 02, 2011 #3

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME
What do you recommend? THE WEEKS 3-6 CLEAN? WILL I HAVE RESULTS?

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Avatar of Bill Roberts Bill Roberts Sep 02, 2011 #4

If planning on doing a number of cycles back to back, I'd make it two weeks or three weeks of Clomid use, on the principle of having some weeks of higher-than-usual LH production to counterbalance the two weeks of very low LH production.

Absolutely you should get good gains with good nutrition and training hard! Your dosages are sufficient. I'd consider increasing the Dianabol to 50 mg/day, but good results are certainly readily attainable just as you've written it.

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s sdspeedracer Sep 27, 2011 #5

Hey, Bill. You first published the 2on/4off quick cycle study in 1999; any changes you would make now that a decade has passed? Any lessons learned that you would add, or does it continue to stand on its own? Thanks for the time.

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Avatar of Bill Roberts Bill Roberts Sep 28, 2011 #6

Today I prefer an antiaromatase to SERM (Nolvadex or Clomid) use during the cycle as an antiestrogen.

I don't favor using low dose orals in the off weeks anymore. This was found to slow recovery somewhat.

That's about it!

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Avatar of Millard Millard Sep 28, 2011 #7

Some more from Bill on this topic here:

View image at the forums


How Has Your Two-Week Steroid Cycle Protocol Changed?

Question: Mr Roberts, I've been reading for the last several years to learn about anabolic steroids, because I definitely plan to use them someday.

View image at the forums


thinksteroids.com

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Avatar of Michael Scally MD Michael Scally MD Sep 28, 2011 #8

^^^^^^^^^^

I would second that. Any use of an androgen while off will negate HPTA return. Also, as I have said ad nauseum, without labs showing HPTA function, all bets are off.

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s sdspeedracer Sep 28, 2011 #9

Thank you all very much. I appreciate your time.

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Avatar of ED209 ED209 Oct 06, 2011 #10

Hey guys, I'm thinking about doing my first cycle in 12 years.

I found the 2 weeker from Bill Roberts.

I was thinking of doing Prop only since that's what I have right now. I figure I can get some decent results since it's my first in a long time. I'd be happy w/ keeping 5-7lbs.

34 y/o
218lbs
5'9''
17% bf

I was thinking of doing:

Day 1 Prop 200mg (can I get away w/ 200 or do I have to bump to 300?)
Day 2-12 Prop 150 EOD
Day 1-14 Aromasin 12.5 ED
Day 2, 6, 10, 14 HCG 250 IU

PCT 2 Weeks stating Day 15
Nolva 20/20
Clomid 50/25

Does this make sense? Would I waste any of my 1st timer clean receptors if I did this? Thanks for any info...

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Avatar of Bill Roberts Bill Roberts Oct 06, 2011 #11

There isn't anything special about the receptors for the first cycle: there doesn't have to be a fear of ruining a golden opportunity. The opportunity will always be there.

The principal reasons that the increase in mass, compared to right before the cycle, is typically so much better for a first cycle is simply that the starting point is lower in mass.

But, back to your cycle:

For a 2 week cycle to be very effective, the dosage level needs I think to be at least 1000 mg/week, although in the special case of using trenbolone acetate and Dianabol it can be as low as 700 mg total (50 mg/day of each.)

I would revise the cycle to:

Day 1: TP 450 mg
Days 2-10 150 mg/day

OR:

Day 1: TP 600 mg
Days 3, 5, 7, and 9: 300 mg

As for HCG, for 2 week cycles I've never developed a system (meaning, used it myself many times and saw what it did for others many times). It really is not necessary for 2 on / 4 off. I would save it for a later occasion. Where it would have more use is with extended cycles of 2 on / 2 off or especially 2 on / 1 off.

I would have enough Clomid or Nolvadex on hand to be able to use it during the cycle in case nipple sensitivity appeared.

If combining Clomid and Nolvadex for PCT, my preferred method is:

Nolvadex: Day 1 60 mg in divided doses (for example 20 mg three times). After this, either 10 mg/day or 20 mg every other day.

Clomid: Day 1: 150 mg in divided doses. After this, either 25 mg/day or 50 mg every other day.

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Avatar of ED209 ED209 Oct 06, 2011 #12

The Man, The Myth, The Legend Himself.. ha. Thank you for the reply. I do have enough clomid and nolva for whatever I need. When would you start it and at what dose ideally?

Nolvadex: Day 1 60 mg in divided doses (for example 20 mg three times). After this, either 10 mg/day or 20 mg every other day.

Clomid: Day 1: 150 mg in divided doses. After this, either 25 mg/day or 50 mg every other day.

Day 1 of the cycle start with:
Clomid 150 mg
Nolva 60 mg

Day 2 start:
Clomid week 1 - 25/week 2 - 25/week 3 - 25/week 4 - 25
Nolva week 1 - 20/week 2 - 20/week 3 - 20/week 4 - 20

Also, I'm kind of worried about the high dosage.. In your experience, do you think this or 150mg EOD of prop for 8 weeks is better for your body. Just asking;)

Also, for 450mg of Prop, would I use 2 sites for that? Seems like a lot to inject in to 1 site at 100mg/ml.. Thanks for any help. I really appreciate it..

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Avatar of Bill Roberts Bill Roberts Oct 06, 2011 #13

Ah, that was not clear on the Clomid and Nolvadex. I apologize. I was meaning Day 1 of PCT, but there was absolutely no way to tell that.

When using an AI, 1000 mg/week of testosterone really is not an extreme dose.

But if you don't want to go that high, then I'd recommend 700 mg/week but for 8 weeks. 150 mg every other day is doable but is at the low end. It will work for some high responders but for most will not be anything to write home about.

It would be hard or impossible to quantitate or prove hardness on the body. The 2 on / 4 off at this dosage level seems found by all who have done it to seem a very reasonable choice with regards to health, including where (as should preferably be done) blood panels are taken. But, that isn't to say that seeming to all users to be perfectly fine doesn't mean that there might not be an undetected adverse effect.

As guesswork, my expectation is that long term cumulative adverse effect is probably related to total gram dosage of steroids used per year, and percentage of weeks per year that lab values are abnormal.

A gram per week only 1/3 of the weeks per year is pretty conservative, I believe. But let's say if wanting to meet the prioritiesof a life-extension, very "health-food" kind of guy who still wanted SOME benefit from anabolic steroids, I would recommend instead light supplementation (so to speak) with Masteron or Primobolan.

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d dfein Oct 06, 2011 #14

What is the rationale behind a 2 week cycle? That you would be less suppressed than an 8 week cycle? Is there even any data that says anything less than 8 weeks is less suppressive? I can't even understand how 2 weeks could make any sort of legitimate gains in mass. It would probably be all water weight which would disappear upon stopping. Even 500mg of T at 8 weeks won't drastically change someone. My understanding is that it takes multiple cycles to get a true change in body composition.

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Avatar of Bill Roberts Bill Roberts Oct 07, 2011 #15

Well, there's an article on the site with measured data and a very large number of people who have done it with results different than you're saying.

But as to "even 500 mg of T," if you mean weekly, then yes, a dosage such as 500 mg/week of testosterone for two weeks would give a near-worthless two-week cycle little or no better than you are saying.

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m meatmeat Oct 08, 2011 #16

I've been reading these forums and various articles written by Bill for some time and have decided to do a cycle - my first. I would appreciate any opinions on it.

23yrs old
5'10"
~195lbs
~ 12% bf

By the time I start the cycle I hope to be nearer the 10%bf mark.

concept is 3 mass phases followed by at least one cutting/hardening phase.
Prop during each phase.
Prop only (2on/20ff) - weeks 1-4
prop + dbol (20n/2off) - 30-40mg / day - weeks 5-8
prop + dbol (2on/2off) - 30-40mg / day - weeks 9-12
prop + var (2on/4off) - 60mg / day - weeks 13-16

prop is front loaded at 300mg then 100mg ED. stop on day 11 and commence pct on day 15 with 100mg Nolva front loaded then 20mg/day until day 28.
Then start prop + dbol. dbol taken until day before pct.
etc

Letro will be taken throughout ~ 0.75mg/day

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