Ask Patrick Arnold #10

Subject: Gyno or Not?

Are sore nipples the same thing or the start of gyno? Over about 6 weeks I built up to a high dose of the prohormones 200 Androstenedione, 200 Androstenediol, 400 Nor Androstenedione. I only did this high dosage for about a week at the end and stopped because my nipples got sore and swollen. I have no lumps of any kind. Is this gyno? Is it from testosterone conversion or prohormone conversion to estrogen or both?? Thanks for the help, and thanks for your great reports on Mesomorphosis!

These sore nipples are the beginning of gyno but if you do not have any lumps then you do not have full blown gyno. It is not uncommon for users of high dosages of prohormones to experience this side effect. Over time continued usage may lead to the formation of small lumps. These gyno lumps are almost never an immediate health problem nor are they usually large enough to be noticed even on a ripped bodybuilder.

The estrogens that caused these lumps may have come from the testosterone or nortestosterone that was converted, or directly from the diones themselves. Diols should not aromatize directly to estrogens.

Subject: Prohormone Delivery Systems

Dear Patrick,

I read your article on SCC’s it seems to be the answer for pro hormones. I am excited awaiting the release and I am thankful for your follow-up article warning of fakes, and how to tell the real from the fake!

My question is what about the transdermal pathway? Is the new product by MedLean doing exactly what SCC’s will do, only better with a larger surface area, and not being limited by the surface area of the mouth?

No. MedLean is a topical steroid that is not complexed with anything. The advantage of topical steroids is that they are long lasting as it takes a while for the steroid to make its way through the layers of the skin to the blood stream and steady state blood levels are not seen for a few days after administration is begun. However, bioavailability is low because little active steroid will make its way into the circulation by this method.

Sublingual cyclodextrin on the other hand has very high bioavailabilty however the peak blood levels are seen rather quickly (20 to 40 minutes). These peaks are quite high however and the drop off is substantially gradual as in the EMU study testosterone levels of greater than 60% over baseline were still measured after 2 hours.

Remember that this EMU study, as well as the overall majority of steroid/cyclodextrin studies were done with hydroxypropylbetacyclodextrin. Products that use beta-cyclodextrin will not give the same positive results.

Subject: FDA and Prohormones

I was interested for your opinion on Bruce Kneller’s article about a company that “will be selling a 4-androstenediol and a 19-norandrostenediol suspension (100 mg/ml), obviously meant to be injected, (so) the FDA will have all prohormones banned nationwide.” Kneller foresees a total prohormone ban by Spring 1999 and suggests we “Stock-up!”. What’s your take?

My take is that is an illegal drug delivery system and if the FDA has the time they will simply remove that particular product from the market. If I put DHEA in one of these suspensions would the FDA then ban DHEA?

Kneller is simply trying to make a name for himself for being a rabble rouser.

Also, I read your article on Sublingual cyclodextrin complex delivery system for prohormones and found it as cutting edge as always! I had great results with Substrate’s Nor Stack and am eagerly awaiting a Substrate sublingual product. Are SCC products still forth coming or will the FDA ax stop you from pushing that scientific envelope!

Thanks for all the science, advice, and results!

I am no longer associated with Substrate Solutions.

Subject: Alcohol as a Prohormone Delivery System

Mr. Arnold, I have tried mixing the androdiol with everclear (grain alcohol) and letting it sit for about a week before ingesting. I also shook the mixture every time I thought about it during the wait period. I did this in hopes enhancing absorption (took about half a shot a day for two weeks – around 300-500 mg androdiol per dose, I believe) and I
think it definitely either enhanced the absorption, or maybe even changed the structure of the steroid molecule, because this really kicked in at the end of the second week! Was this psychological or did I come up with an enhanced delivery system? I have noticed some results with the diol before I tried this, but nothing like this. What do you think?

First of all I think you may have a drinking problem. But besides that it is possible that your method may have increased the bioavailabiltiy of the androdiol. It should not have changed the structure, however a very small amount may have converted into ethyl esters. I am not sure, but the alcohol may have enhanced absorption through the stomach itself rather than the small intestine. Or it may have increased blood supply to the GI tract or it may have facilitated uptake into the small intestine. I don’t know. But I do know that alcohol is known to speed up the absorption of a lot of drugs one way or another.

BTW, this is one of the funnier questions I have read in a while.

Subject: Your Answer to GHB ProDrugs

I read your answer to Blue Nitro and felt it was very abbreviated. Living in Florida it seems all of these “lactone” containing products come from here. I have researched both GHB and Gamma – Butyrolactone extensively. Is your “toxic” in reference to the dosage response curve? I have found minimal toxicology that shows any dangers form dosages kept below 2 grams for gamma-butyrolactone.

I have found several studies that show GHB can be into several different compounds due to method of preparation. A reason I feel the FDA should have left it alone so reputable companies could have made it. European countries have no problems with it.

I find that it is safer to have a person ingest 2 grams or less of food grade (which is hard to find) gamma-butyrolactone and allow the enzymes of the blood and liver convert it to GHB than try and make it or use something someone else has made.

As for hGH release I would say for longevity purposes “lactone” is much safer than GH injections followed by insulin injections. I have many clients that combine 1 gram of “lactone with 2 grams of glutamine and 1 serving of Twin
Lab’s caffeine free “Choline Cocktail”. These clients all notice considerable changes in their bodies from the increased levels of hGH that register on blood work.

Again I realize you comments are for bodybuilders and my work is for the over thirty crowd but your short answer made this seem like a bad choice over illegal drugs.

Louis

People have found that GHB, and its precursors gamma-butyrolactone and 1,4-butanediol are highly physically addictive if taken regularly (every few hours). Withdrawals are quite severe. Also it is very easy to take a dose that will make you pass out and/or pee and crap yourself. That is, 2 grams may give you mild sedation while six may make you drive your car off a cliff. I have personally seen someone go into an epileptic seizure and chew his tongue to pieces as well as trash his apartment and lose all bodily functions after misjudging a GHB dose.

It is for these reasons I cannot recommend any of these products for anyone. I know I will anger a lot of people that take the stuff responsibly or who sell the stuff but for the sake of those that might fuck up with it I say stay away anyone who has never touched it.

Subject: Male Pattern Baldness (MPB) and Androdiol (4AD)

Mr. Arnold:

I am susceptible to male pattern baldness; is 4-AD safe for me, or would I be better off with a 4-nor-andro product? And is 4-AD best by itself, or do you recommend stacks? Finally, I have a product now that stacks the following:

• 19-nor 4-Androtene3, 17dione (50mg)
• 19-Nor 4 Androstene3,diol (50mg)
• 4-Androstene3, 17diol (100mg).

Now, I’ve read your explanation for the various dione and diol products, and andros versus nor andros, and why you feel 4-AD is best, but I don’t recall any mention of the meaning of the “3”‘ at the end of the “andro” words, as cited above, or the significance of the number 17 as cited above. Could you enlighten me please?? (p.s.: what do you think of the above mentioned stack, and its efficacy?)

Gratefully yours,
Doug

I would recommend 19-nor-4-androstenediol to avoid MPB. That is because it is a nor product and will be less androgenic to tissues high in 5-alpha reductase and also because it cannot aromatize and estrogens may cause a problem with baldness too (thought I heard that somewhere)

The 3 and 17 designations are just the number of the steroid skeleton carbons to which the ol or one functional groups are attached to. I would not worry about them.

Subject: Andro Wars, Libido and Norandrodiol

After reading your article in http://www.testosterone.net under the title Andro Wars, I’m sure men will think twice about using norandrodiol (decreases libido) as opposed to androdiol. My question to you is: Would using an androdiol (increases libido) along w/ the norandrodiol counteract its libido decreasing effects? More specifically, will using the Diol Stack decrease libido? I’m sure people would like to know the answer to this one. Thanks once again.

That is a good question and one that I really cannot answer. it is probably dose dependent.

I think it would not affect libido much. And at high dosages it may even enhance libido. It is a complicated theory but one involving saturation of 5-AR and unconverted nandrolone affecting androgen receptors in certain CNS tissues etc.

Subject: What’s the Truth About 19-Norandro Metabolism?

There is lots of talk about 19-norandrostenediol and/or dione being a direct precursor to nandrolone. Now the prescription anabolic steroid, “Deca-Durabolin” contains nandrolone decanoate. I imagine this is the reason why it can be marketed without violating the controlled substance act. If this 19-nor stuff metabolized into nandrolone decanoate, then it would most likely be illegal under the controlled substance act as either a precursor or more likely a CSA (controlled substance analog). Now everyone time and time again claims “nandrolone is the base compound in Deca”, and this is true. Although, the nandrolone in Deca is chemically bound to decanoate. This without a doubt effects the rate of metabolism. For example PEA or phenyethylamine is the base compound in amphetamine, yet PEA is voraciously metabolized in the body and has no effect similar to amphetamine what so ever even in dosages of +1000mgs. If you chemically bind a methyl group to the alpha position on PEA you get amphetamine which is without a doubt biologically active. The increased biological activity is due to the change in the rate of metabolism. Nandrolone decanoate can last up to four days in the body, what is the half-life of freeform nandrolone? Can you offer me any scientific or medical references as to how long freebase nandrolone exist before it is converted into an inactive metabolite? How do I know that any 19-norandro supplement I may take will not simply become an inactive metabolite in just a few hours? If that happens 19-norandro will not demonstrate the same anabolic activity of the decanoate analog that everyone loves to compare it to.

The free nandrolone will be metabolized very quickly as will the precursor. Lifetimes probably very similar to testosterone and their precursors. Which means that orally you would probably see a nandrolone peak around 60 to 90 minutes with a nandrolone precursor. The height of the peak and when levels return to baseline would be dependent mostly on dosage and the ability of the body to metabolize the precursor into the nandrolone.

Subject: Guggulsterones

Pat,
Are you the one who introduced gugglesterones. Never the less, do you know if gugglesterones are any good for weight loss? I understand that taking 30mg can raise your body temperature as much as 1 deg F within 30 minutes. I have read that they may help in the conversion of t4 to t3. What can you tell me?

TGreen

Am I the one who introduced gugglesterones? You know I am careful not to say what I did or did not introduce but there are many compounds that were NEVER mentioned before I came up with the research and told many about them. Then someone would write about them (Dan Duchaine particularly) and they soon became supplements. Gugguls were one, chrysin, LPC, Ipriflavone, norandrostenedione, and maybe one or two other duds. But this means nothing except me just ego boosting so forget I even said it. However if anyone ever wanted to prove who found what first and introduced the literature, I would bet the bank I would win on these.

My literature research findings did not involve the practical use of these compounds on humans, nor do I know of any studies that have explored this. I would recommend you be your own subject and carefully monitor your body temperature every morning starting with a low dose of the stuff and working up every few days. Also if possible, have blood assays done (T4, T3, TSH) on a regular basis as you increase dosage etc.

Subject: Diols and Estrogenic Effects?

Diones can directly convert to estrogen right? Diols have to convert to testosterone – then to estrogen right? So then how is it that 5AD is highly estrogenic? Its a Diol + it has a low testosterone conversion rate so why doesn’t it have low estrogenic conversion. If it has low estrogen conversion then I can definitely see why its worth taking its highly anabolic in its unconverted form – same as 4AD.

P.S. Please shed some light on this topic – I’m either beginning to understand this or I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about – Once again, thank you.

Another good question. There are two ways that certain androgens can exert estrogenic effects. One is to aromatize to classical estrogens themselves. Another is to bind directly to estrogen receptors without being metabolized at all. 5-androstenediol has a chemical structure which enables it to bind with significant affinity to estrogen receptors and to activate them. It of course also has the ability to do the same to androgen receptors, hence its scientific reference as “hermaphrodiol”. 5-AD on the other hand has very little aromatization to classical estrogens.

Subject: Effect of Norandros on Endogenous Testosterone

Dear Mr. Arnold,

I have read with great interest some of your recent replies to questions about the norandro prohormones. One point which really confuses me is the cycling of the norandro products. In an answer to a recent letter, you advised that it is necessary to take time off from a norandro cycle because endogenous production will suffer. I thought the norandro products did not affect testosterone levels. So why would we need to take time off?

Thanks in advance,
Larry

Nortestosterone has a negative effect on endogenous production of testosterone that is comparable to exogenous testosterone itself. You must cycle all prohormone products

Subject: Dharkam’s Suggestions

Dear Pat,
I have a few questions about the article Grow Even When Off Steroids:

1. Dharkam says to use dantrolene before the workout.
   On the off days do I use it or not?
2. He says that arminore is a good fat burner. Is pentoxyfylline as good?
3. Can you inject PGF2 into the pecs,biceps?
4. Is the rise in the temperature from PGF2 use
   dangerous as in DNP?

Don’t listen to him. Do not fool around with these dangerous compounds known to have horrible side effects.