Using estradiol injection to allow for low test cycles

[readalot]

Having such low erythropoiesis is somewhat worrisome. The absence of poor general health blood markers doesn't mean there isn't something wrong. This are UGL compounds that you are running nonetheless, so that's why I'd be careful. Something IS wrong, no doubt about that. And as we have no idea about what is actually happening and if there are any potential longer term effects ... well, everybody's health standards vary - I'd quit the reta and reassess if it was me.

Perhaps pull this on next panel...

Reticulocyte Count: Testing, Purpose & Results

A reticulocyte count test measures the number of immature red blood cells (reticulocytes) in your bone marrow.

my.clevelandclinic.org

 

[Jin23]

Perhaps pull this on next panel...

Reticulocyte Count: Testing, Purpose & Results

A reticulocyte count test measures the number of immature red blood cells (reticulocytes) in your bone marrow.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Hm, I'd primarily check that if I wanted to look for hemolysis ...

 

[readalot]

Hm, I'd primarily check that if I wanted to look for hemolysis ...

Reticulocytes - Clinical Methods - NCBI Bookshelf

Decent insight as part of hematology workup.

 

[Jin23]

Reticulocytes - Clinical Methods - NCBI Bookshelf

Decent insight as part of hematology workup.

I just read which post you actually quote. You meant using reticulocytes for determining erythropoiesis? Sure, it's essentially the same as determining hemolysis. It has it's uses.

I'm too tired, didn't read the link, is there anything specific in it?

 

[verb]

My wife is in early perimenopause and is taking estradiol and testosterone. Both sexes use the same hormones. They are not to my knowledge chemically distinct.

So if this assertion of Type IIx has any truth, it seems to be focusing on the wrong attributes. What does the route of production of estradiol matter? 17β-estradiol is 17β-estradiol. Women even produce some of their estradiol through aromatization of testosterone.

I think the assertion is that if there is a large concentration of aromatase in certain tissues, those tissues naturally experience levels of local estrogen from test aromatization that is greater than what we could facially predict from blood levels of e2. You don't see the level of e2 those tissues experience reflected in the blood because the e2 is generated and used locally in those tissues. Its kind of like how serum IGF-1 doesn't reflect IGF-1 levels in the muscle; it doesn't mean the muscles are necessarily receiving more IGF-1 just because there are higher levels of it in the blood.

So, if we want to provide those tissues with similar e2 levels via exogenous e2 supplementation, we would need to provide the blood with higher than normal e2 levels so that the "proper" concentration of e2 from exogenous e2 gets to those tissues. I think this makes sense, at least on its face.

I wonder if this would provide some fat loss benefit, at least mechanistically, because adipose tissue won't be receiving the same amount of e2 from exogenous e2 supplementation as it would through local aromatase expression provided blood e2 levels are equal. If we assume adipose e2 levels are a net negative for fat loss, and we assume what TypeIIx says is true, this would be a logical conclusion.

If any of this is true, it would be less applicable to women than men because women don't produce most of their e2 from aromatase like men do.

 

[bananafeet]

I think the assertion is that if there is a large concentration of aromatase in certain tissues, those tissues naturally experience levels of local estrogen from test aromatization that is greater than what we could facially predict from blood levels of e2. You don't see the level of e2 those tissues experience reflected in the blood because the e2 is generated and used locally in those tissues. Its kind of like how serum IGF-1 doesn't reflect IGF-1 levels in the muscle; it doesn't mean the muscles are necessarily receiving more IGF-1 just because there are higher levels of it in the blood.

So, if we want to provide those tissues with similar e2 levels via exogenous e2 supplementation, we would need to provide the blood with higher than normal e2 levels so that the "proper" concentration of e2 from exogenous e2 gets to those tissues. I think this makes sense, at least on its face.

I wonder if this would provide some fat loss benefit, at least mechanistically, because adipose tissue won't be receiving the same amount of e2 from exogenous e2 supplementation as it would through local aromatase expression provided blood e2 levels are equal. If we assume adipose e2 levels are a net negative for fat loss, and we assume what TypeIIx says is true, this would be a logical conclusion.

If any of this is true, it would be less applicable to women than men because women don't produce most of their e2 from aromatase like men do.

The only counter to this is some tissues have more receptors. So they will still react more strongly to a blood level of E2 regardless of what it is.

I still haven't gotten an answer to the paracrine vs endocrine answer....

 

[bigtom343]

I will try to respond to the 3 claims:

✖ cause male reproductive pathologies [1] - even when exposure is to environmental estrogens, far less potent than E2 and in very low concentrations

Refutation:
The study discusses synthetic or environment disruption by xenoestrogens. This doesn’t support the argument that identical exogenous estrogen is harmful. From the study:

“ As a result, low doses of xenoestrogens can interfere with natural estrogen actions, even in the presence of higher circulating E2 concentrations.”

✖cause an increase in IGFBP-1, decreasing IGF-I bioavailability [3]

Refutation:
This is true. More HGH may be needed to get the same IGF1 response especially when using oral E2 (first pass effect):
A Switch from Oral (2 mg/Day) to Transdermal (50 mg/Day) 17b-Estradiol Therapy Increases Serum Insulin-Like Growth Factor-I Levels in Recombinant Human Growth Hormone (GH)-Substituted Women with GH Deficiency
https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1210/jcem.85.1.6311

“Serum IGF-I levels significantly increased after the switch from oral to transdermal estrogen therapy “

✖cause a dramatic increase in SHBG (reducing T bioavailability) [4]

Refutation:
This is true but the study was on men with normal testosterone levels. It follows reasoning that men on exogenous testosterone would have lower levels of SHBG and the effect won’t be as dramatic.


Counter evidence:

1. Higher levels of estrogen are associated with reduced mortality and endothelial function
2. Man with aromatase deficiency was treated with exogenous estradiol improving various health markers (bone, lipids etc) with exogenous estrogen treatment
3. Higher E2 is associated with better lipid profiles, lower atherosclerosis and lower cardiovascular risk. Benefits are independent of testosterone level.

Endogenous estrogen levels are associated with endothelial function in males independently of lipid levels
DOI 10.1007/s12020-010-9307-7
“Flow-mediated dilatation (FMD) and intima-media thickness (IMT) of the common carotid artery were evaluated. Obesity parameters were recorded; estradiol, testosterone, SHBG, free testosterone, insulin, as well as glucose and lipid levels were measured. FMD was positively correlated with estradiol (r = 0.201, P = 0.041) and negatively with total cholesterol (r = -0.205, P = 0.022), low density lipoproteins (r = -0.232, P = 0.009), and triglyceride levels (r = -0.179, P = 0.046). In multivariate analysis, the association of FMD with estrogen was independent of BMI and lipid levels. No significant association between FMD and testosterone levels was found.”

EFFECT OF TESTOSTERONE AND ESTRADIOL IN A MAN WITH AROMATASE DEFICIENCY
https://sci-hub.se/10.1056/NEJM199707103370204
“Estrogen treatment induced substantial decreases in the ratio of serum LDL cholesterol to serum HDL cholesterol and in serum triglycerides in our patient (Table 1). Although this effect may depend at least in part on reduced concentrations of serum testosterone, it is clear that the abnormal lipid profile in an aromatase-deficient subject can be modified with estrogen treatment.17”

“With estrogen treatment spinal bone mineral density increased, and complete epiphyseal closure was achieved after nine months. The increases in bone mineral density, serum levels of alkaline phosphatase and osteocalcin, and urinary excretion of pyridinoline were similar to those that occur during normal skeletal maturation during puberty.13,14”

Endogenous Sex Hormones and Cardiovascular Disease in Men

https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1210/jc.2003-030611

“Estradiol was found to be associated with apolipoprotein E (15).”

“Peripheral arterial disease To our knowledge, only one study (104) has been published on the association between endogenous sex hormones and peripheral arterial disease. The Edinburgh Artery Study, a large-scale prospective survey, found that after 5 yr of follow-up, 40 men had developed peripheral arterial disease. In a nested case-control study, total T, SHBG, and estradiol appeared to have a protective effect, whereas estrone appeared to have an adverse effect.”

“In male-tofemale transsexuals, long-term estrogen supplementation improves vascular function, compared with men [(mean se) 11.5 1.3% vs. 5.2 1.0%, respectively, P 0.005] (121). The effect of high-dose conjugated estrogen (5 mg/d) was studied in the Coronary Drug Project, but estrogen treatment was discontinued because it nearly doubled the incidence of nonfatal MI in the treatment group (122). It may be stated that estrogen as well as T administration had both beneficial and deleterious effects on cardiovascular functioning, depending on dose, population, and end point.”

Conclusion:
Exogenous supplementation in men of E2 provides the same benefits are E2 produced by aromatisation. Higher levels have been shown to be harmful (last quote).

I don't know what qualifies as "high" but maybe getting into the female reference range would be ok.

I think Type-2x is AFK, I sent him a message asking him about ROS and synthetic androgens but he didn't respond. So I'm posting it here not on the original thread.

I will defer to someone with a formal education (not myself).

Sci Hub - porn hub for geeks

 

[Gonz0]

So I have been thinking of a new possible approach for using some substances that are usually a bit tricky due to the lowering estrogen ability they have attached to their use so that one could use high dose of these mild compounds without having to blast test very high.

EQ and Primo are the main focus of this brainstorm idea I'm having, but Nandrolone can be another one.

So I can't run any of these two substances on a ratio of 1:1 without killing my E2.
I have noticed that both substances are great run at high dosages with minimum impacts on bloods especially EQ for me is a breeze with no side effect except those damn low E2.

I have been thinking, why not run 500mg of test as a base and then 1.5G of EQ for example and to balance E2 just inject low dosages of estradiol cypionate?

You could run a very high anabolic cycle with minimal sides and still have a healthy level of E2.

Please rip me a new one or give me your criticism/ideas on this approach.

I have the same problem with primo and eq , I’m playing around with a low dose of ment so I can run my primo higher than my test. I’ve never used ment before and I know the methyl estrogen it creates is different than if I were to use estradiol cyp so we’ll see how it goes.

 

[Photon]

I have the same problem with primo and eq , I’m playing around with a low dose of ment so I can run my primo higher than my test. I’ve never used ment before and I know the methyl estrogen it creates is different than if I were to use estradiol cyp so we’ll see how it goes.

Ment's half life is short, like 6-8 hours?
I think in some studies they injected 3x a day.

Whats your daily pin schedule like?
It should kick in and clear really quick.

 

[Sickxlost]

So I have been thinking of a new possible approach for using some substances that are usually a bit tricky due to the lowering estrogen ability they have attached to their use so that one could use high dose of these mild compounds without having to blast test very high.

EQ and Primo are the main focus of this brainstorm idea I'm having, but Nandrolone can be another one.

So I can't run any of these two substances on a ratio of 1:1 without killing my E2.
I have noticed that both substances are great run at high dosages with minimum impacts on bloods especially EQ for me is a breeze with no side effect except those damn low E2.

I have been thinking, why not run 500mg of test as a base and then 1.5G of EQ for example and to balance E2 just inject low dosages of estradiol cypionate?

You could run a very high anabolic cycle with minimal sides and still have a healthy level of E2.

Please rip me a new one or give me your criticism/ideas on this approach.

There is a guy on YouTube names Trenemy1 that did something similar.

He basically dropped any aromatizing compounds and stuck with 19-nors and starting ejecting estradiol thinking the high estrogen was messing with his D game. It’s all over the place but it’s pretty interesting “following” his ups and downs.

 

[Ateam2023]

There is a guy on YouTube names Trenemy1 that did something similar.

He basically dropped any aromatizing compounds and stuck with 19-nors and starting ejecting estradiol thinking the high estrogen was messing with his D game. It’s all over the place but it’s pretty interesting “following” his ups and downs.

that dude is on some serious "recreational drugs" , acts like someone high on meth,, he is "All over the place",

 

[Sickxlost]

that dude is on some serious "recreational drugs" , acts like someone high on meth,, he is "All over the place",

You hit that right on the head. It’s like a train wreck but I can’t look away

 

[Eddie.]

that dude is on some serious "recreational drugs" , acts like someone high on meth,, he is "All over the place",

Totally agree. He probably messed up his brain using too much stuff. Also i strongly believe he’s doing snd saying a lot of stuff just for sake of content.

 

[Sampei]

There is a guy on YouTube names Trenemy1 that did something similar.

He basically dropped any aromatizing compounds and stuck with 19-nors and starting ejecting estradiol thinking the high estrogen was messing with his D game. It’s all over the place but it’s pretty interesting “following” his ups and downs.

Yeah but my approach would be different and more reasonable lol

Cycle example:

300mg Test
1G of EQ
400-600 mg primo

Optional:
400mg nandrolone or 350mg Anadrol or 200mg Tren E

Mix and match these substances keeping the base test/EQ/Primo and just adding other stuff in low dosages if more is needed or different cosmetic effects are wanted.

Inject estradiol as needed to keep E2 at healthy level.

 

[Sickxlost]

Yeah but my approach would be different and more reasonable lol

Cycle example:

300mg Test
1G of EQ
400-600 mg primo

Optional:
400mg nandrolone or 350mg Anadrol or 200mg Tren E

Mix and match these substances keeping the base test/EQ/Primo and just adding other stuff in low dosages if more is needed or different cosmetic effects are wanted.

Inject estradiol as needed to keep E2 at healthy level.

I think it’s crazy enough to work lol

If you started a log I would 100% follow along. Not often you see things like this.

 

[Sickxlost]

Yeah but my approach would be different and more reasonable lol

Cycle example:

300mg Test
1G of EQ
400-600 mg primo

Optional:
400mg nandrolone or 350mg Anadrol or 200mg Tren E

Mix and match these substances keeping the base test/EQ/Primo and just adding other stuff in low dosages if more is needed or different cosmetic effects are wanted.

Inject estradiol as needed to keep E2 at healthy level.

I can take a gram of test an 250-300 mg eq crashes my e2. I don’t even touch eq anymore

 

[Ateam2023]

Yeah but my approach would be different and more reasonable lol

Cycle example:

300mg Test
1G of EQ
400-600 mg primo

Optional:
400mg nandrolone or 350mg Anadrol or 200mg Tren E

Mix and match these substances keeping the base test/EQ/Primo and just adding other stuff in low dosages if more is needed or different cosmetic effects are wanted.

Inject estradiol as needed to keep E2 at healthy level.

Are you doing this yet or what? Have you started "exploring the potential ups&downs"? Very curious about your journey with estrogen injections and pushing higher doses,

 

[Gonz0]

Ment's half life is short, like 6-8 hours?
I think in some studies they injected 3x a day.

Whats your daily pin schedule like?
It should kick in and clear really quick.

I pin everything daily , usually first thing in the morning post cardio. 175/280/140/52.5 - test C/primo/mast E/ment ace. Today I bumped the ment up to 7.5mg daily. That may be a good idea to pin twice daily , I’m just wondering if pinning again in the evening could possibly effect sleep.

 

[Sampei]

Are you doing this yet or what? Have you started "exploring the potential ups&downs"? Very curious about your journey with estrogen injections and pushing higher doses,

If SSA were to deliver my fucking package. 1 month + that I'm waiting for the estradiol cypionate.

Will not be able to test the blast before October however. I need to cruise for a while to give my body a rest but I can still play with it during cruise

To start testing the water

 

[Sampei]

I think it’s crazy enough to work lol

If you started a log I would 100% follow along. Not often you see things like this.

I'll when I'll try it, with bloods etc
I wonder if one would achieve a drier super vascular look even on a bulk with so low test and using all dry substances... Question to answer is: will the anabolism be enough or on par to use high Test?

We will see I guess.