High test & low anabolics Vs low/moderate test & higher anabolics

[Dafty]

For my first few years cycling I ran low/moderate test cycles (300-600mg) and then used various anabolics to build up the cycle totals to 1.5-2gish generally. EQ, Nandralone, Tren, Mast etc

Last year I for one reason or another decided to try running test higher - 1 - 1.5g then use lower dose anabolics to polish on top.

And I've got to say from many perspectives I've found the high test/low anabolics approach to be a lot more effective for growth and performance - plataues seem far less frequent too. Just constant steady gains for months on end.

Not as great for a prep cycle, but even then it's only the last 6-8 weeks of my last prep cycle I started brining down the test and upping the anabolics.

What is everyone else's experiences?

 

[Eddie.]

It was like this for couple decades but recently they tried to reinvent the wheel with low test high anabolics.

Primary growth driver was test. There's a threshold for everyone, most guys top out at 1250 - 1500mg amd after that they feel sluggish, etc. Once they knew their ceiling then they added the secondary or/and third compound.

Nowadays guys consider high test bad, holds a lot of water, oils the skin plus a number of other excuses because they want to crank high mast or primo without raising too much overall mg volume.

Tldr test is best.

 

[Nidus]

It was like this for couple decades but recently they tried to reinvent the wheel with low test high anabolics.

Primary growth driver was test. There's a threshold for everyone, most guys top out at 1250 - 1500mg amd after that they feel sluggish, etc. Once they knew their ceiling then they added the secondary or/and third compound.

Nowadays guys consider high test bad, holds a lot of water, oils the skin plus a number of other excuses because they want to crank high mast or primo without raising too much overall mg volume.

Tldr test is best.

I think the general rule would be: as much Test as you can run without having E2 issues + as much as possible GH as you can run financially and with blood sugar in check

 

[Eddie.]

I think the general rule would be: as much Test as you can run without having E2 issues + as much as possible GH as you can run financially and with blood sugar in check

Yeah, sorry but I'm not buying that $hit. I'm 100% opposed to that thinking. We know 2 ways already to combat high e2. First is AI and second using compounds as secondary anabolics that suppress e2 like EQ or primo.

I know personally a ifbb pro which is 120kg diced and even when he drops to trt+ with 250 test he needs half aromasin eod to keep e2 on check. That means he would have to progress with 150mg test in his push phase..right? It's not possible.

So, either high test with AI or high test with another compound that reduces e2. Personally if was about to run 1200mg test id be fine with 600 EQ.

I agree on HGH and blood sugar and guess what..using high test helps with insulin sensitivity too, so here's another reason haha.

 

[Dafty]

Yeah, sorry but I'm not buying that $hit. I'm 100% opposed to that thinking. We know 2 ways already to combat high e2. First is AI and second using compounds as secondary anabolics that suppress e2 like EQ or primo.

I know personally a ifbb pro which is 120kg diced and even when he drops to trt+ with 250 test he needs half aromasin eod to keep e2 on check. That means he would have to progress with 150mg test in his push phase..right? It's not possible.

So, either high test with AI or high test with another compound that reduces e2. Personally if was about to run 1200mg test id be fine with 600 EQ.

I agree on HGH and blood sugar and guess what..using high test helps with insulin sensitivity too, so here's another reason haha.

I am 100% on the same page as you.

AIs are not the devil - this issues with AIs from studies are a result of low E2 - as these studies are on women where the drugs are being used to nuke estrogen to prevent cancers - not in males running androgens trying to pull E2 back to normal range.

 

[Nidus]

Yeah, sorry but I'm not buying that $hit. I'm 100% opposed to that thinking. We know 2 ways already to combat high e2. First is AI and second using compounds as secondary anabolics that suppress e2 like EQ or primo.

I know personally a ifbb pro which is 120kg diced and even when he drops to trt+ with 250 test he needs half aromasin eod to keep e2 on check. That means he would have to progress with 150mg test in his push phase..right? It's not possible.

So, either high test with AI or high test with another compound that reduces e2. Personally if was about to run 1200mg test id be fine with 600 EQ.

I agree on HGH and blood sugar and guess what..using high test helps with insulin sensitivity too, so here's another reason haha.

I think the discussion around how much test to run is more nuanced than simply settling on one static thing here.

I agree that test should be the basis of all, but I believe it’s better to find the highest comfortable dose you can handle before E2 becomes an actual problem. If you struggle with high E2 at 150mg then sure, a 2nd compound or an AI can be thrown in. I did not have the intention to demonize the use of a 2nd compound or AI.

Although, me personally i would stay away from AI's as much as possible as i much rather have a bit more of an anabolic effect i.e. using Primo instead of an AI.

A lot of people use AIs or Primo right from the start, but in my view that’s adding complexity before it’s really necessary. AI's and and a 2nd compound such as Primo to control E2 should be only used if really needed

If you can get great results by keeping test at a tolerable level without those extra drugs, you avoid unnecessary risks and make your approach more sustainable long term. And if you are genetically screwed aka aromatase like crazy, plan B it is then.

 

[Liter O' Test]

I think the discussion around how much test to run is more nuanced than simply settling on one static thing here.

I agree that test should be the basis of all, but I believe it’s better to find the highest comfortable dose you can handle before E2 becomes an actual problem. If you struggle with high E2 at 150mg then sure, a 2nd compound or an AI can be thrown in. I did not have the intention to demonize the use of a 2nd compound or AI.

Although, me personally i would stay away from AI's as much as possible as i much rather have a bit more of an anabolic effect i.e. using Primo instead of an AI.

A lot of people use AIs or Primo right from the start, but in my view that’s adding complexity before it’s really necessary. AI's and and a 2nd compound such as Primo to control E2 should be only used if really needed

If you can get great results by keeping test at a tolerable level without those extra drugs, you avoid unnecessary risks and make your approach more sustainable long term. And if you are genetically screwed aka aromatase like crazy, plan B it is then.

i can give you 100 reasons why having elevated E2 is bad. estrogen is more than gyno, acne and libido issues.

 

[Eddie.]

I think the discussion around how much test to run is more nuanced than simply settling on one static thing here.

I agree that test should be the basis of all, but I believe it’s better to find the highest comfortable dose you can handle before E2 becomes an actual problem. If you struggle with high E2 at 150mg then sure, a 2nd compound or an AI can be thrown in. I did not have the intention to demonize the use of a 2nd compound or AI.

Although, me personally i would stay away from AI's as much as possible as i much rather have a bit more of an anabolic effect i.e. using Primo instead of an AI.

A lot of people use AIs or Primo right from the start, but in my view that’s adding complexity before it’s really necessary. AI's and and a 2nd compound such as Primo to control E2 should be only used if really needed

If you can get great results by keeping test at a tolerable level without those extra drugs, you avoid unnecessary risks and make your approach more sustainable long term. And if you are genetically screwed aka aromatase like crazy, plan B it is then.

Letting your e2 go sky-high would be more detrimental to your health than using an AI, and with all the knowledge and research from this day and age i think this is not debatable.

Now, will you look better on 500 test and 500 primo or EQ than 1gr test solo and a AI? Probably. But chances to have a greater rate of growth with test only at a gram are higher.

There's still the perception that all anabolics are equal MG for MG but even John Jewett who said that in the past has probably reconsidered it. I heard him few days ago in a q n a saying this past off season his test was at 1700mg, plus the other anabolics. I guess if he'd still believe that mast or primo yield the same growth then he'd be using 500 test and 2 grams mast. But we all saw how bad Todd Lee ended up looking on this nonsensical protocol and i guess we can all agree that test is best haha xD.

Tbh i haven't tried to use test only to see where's my tolerance is but i doubt it would be more than 350 without AI or 2nd compound. I agree that it's not wise to start with 2 compounds the gear journey and test only is the best option but a little AI to dial estradiol won't hurt.

 

[Nidus]

Letting your e2 go sky-high would be more detrimental to your health than using an AI, and with all the knowledge and research from this day and age i think this is not debatable.

Now, will you look better on 500 test and 500 primo or EQ than 1gr test solo and a AI? Probably. But chances to have a greater rate of growth with test only at a gram are higher.

There's still the perception that all anabolics are equal MG for MG but even John Jewett who said that in the past has probably reconsidered it. I heard him few days ago in a q n a saying this past off season his test was at 1700mg, plus the other anabolics. I guess if he'd still believe that mast or primo yield the same growth then he'd be using 500 test and 2 grams mast. But we all saw how bad Todd Lee ended up looking on this nonsensical protocol and i guess we can all agree that test is best haha xD.

Tbh i haven't tried to use test only to see where's my tolerance is but i doubt it would be more than 350 without AI or 2nd compound. I agree that it's not wise to start with 2 compounds the gear journey and test only is the best option but a little AI to dial estradiol won't hurt.

Totally agree that neither, sky high E2 or nuked E2 are beneficial for anyone, the point i was trying to make here is that if you really need an AI, better stick with something like Primo or EQ to get more anabolism out of it.

I just personally would not touch any AI given the research i came across where Endothelial Dysfunction took place and other CVD risks significantly increase , i prefer Primo for this purpose. Ofc, this view is personal and if you have the goal to go on stage this is a risk people will take to achieve.

With that being said, Test as high as you can tolerate it and when going higher, throw in Primo or EQ instead of an AI and go with as much GH as possible. Then the same logic applies there too, when wanting to push for more, throwing in Insulin

 

[Liter O' Test]

Totally agree that neither, sky high E2 or nuked E2 are beneficial for anyone, the point i was trying to make here is that if you really need an AI, better stick with something like Primo or EQ to get more anabolism out of it.

I just personally would not touch any AI given the research i came across where Endothelial Dysfunction took place and other CVD risks significantly increase , i prefer Primo for this purpose. Ofc, this view is personal and if you have the goal to go on stage this is a risk people will take to achieve.

With that being said, Test as high as you can tolerate it and when going higher, throw in Primo or EQ instead of an AI and go with as much GH as possible. Then the same logic applies there too, when wanting to push for more, throwing in Insulin

what is too high estrogen in your opinion?

 

[Nidus]

what is too high estrogen in your opinion?

I think its quite individual so i can only speak for myself and my own experience.

35-37 is perfect for me, no achy joints, no skin issues, no mood swings, great libido and all that

Below 30, achy joints, no sex drive, bad sleep

Above 48-50, similar to low E2 although i get much more pimples, oily skin, weird dreams, quickly irritated. So 45 would be my personal upper limit

With Primo i have it currently at 37 for the past 6 months. Anything above 60 would be too high.

Again, just my personal experience, there might be people who feel just fine with 60 or so

 

[Liter O' Test]

I think its quite individual so i can only speak for myself and my own experience.

35-37 is perfect for me, no achy joints, no skin issues, no mood swings, great libido and all that

Below 30, achy joints, no sex drive, bad sleep

Above 48-50, similar to low E2 although i get much more pimples, oily skin, weird dreams, quickly irritated. So 45 would be my personal upper limit

With Primo i have it currently at 37 for the past 6 months. Anything above 60 would be too high.

Again, just my personal experience, there might be people who feel just fine with 60 or so

yeah some people go like 60-100 and i think thats a mistake. i wouldnt go above 40ish like you said

 

[Eddie.]

I'm going just a tad below 40 when cutting but I'd like it a little higher like between 50-60 on off season. Personally i have zero sides at 100 but that was a mistake i did once with underestimating HCG and that's not gonna happen again.

 

[niqTM]

It seems like the running theme here is "use as much test as you can tolerate". What does this mean? What are the effects of a test level that are too high that they are intolerable?

 

[Dafty]

It seems like the running theme here is "use as much test as you can tolerate". What does this mean? What are the effects of a test level that are too high that they are intolerable?

Get so jacked none of your clothes fit and your mum refuses to buy you another set of shirts

 

[Liter O' Test]

when my estrogen hits like 50 i get soft AF in the face and i look ugly AF, the longer this goes on the more fat accumulates there and there is more inflammation and it also affects collagen crosslinking, thats part of why women age like milk

 

[4Drago]

Get so jacked none of your clothes fit and your mum refuses to buy you another set of shirts

You still have your mum buy your clothes? Not being an ass, maybe you live in a country with different cultural norms?

 

[Dafty]

You still have your mum buy your clothes? Not being an ass, maybe you live in a country with different cultural norms?

No sir, you misread.

I said YOUR mum

Now less of your lip or I won't give you any pocket money at the weekend d

 

[Zc7219]

Totally agree that neither, sky high E2 or nuked E2 are beneficial for anyone, the point i was trying to make here is that if you really need an AI, better stick with something like Primo or EQ to get more anabolism out of it.

I just personally would not touch any AI given the research i came across where Endothelial Dysfunction took place and other CVD risks significantly increase , i prefer Primo for this purpose. Ofc, this view is personal and if you have the goal to go on stage this is a risk people will take to achieve.

With that being said, Test as high as you can tolerate it and when going higher, throw in Primo or EQ instead of an AI and go with as much GH as possible. Then the same logic applies there too, when wanting to push for more, throwing in Insulin

Doesn’t primo metabolize into an AI? so theoretically it’s no different than taking an actual AI. Like it’s the same shit just a different MOA…

 

[rexy]

even John Jewett who said that in the past has probably reconsidered it. I heard him few days ago in a q n a saying this past off season his test was at 1700mg, plus the other anabolics. I guess if he'd still believe that mast or primo yield the same growth then he'd be using 500 test and 2 grams mast

Yes, during off-season, he peaked at 1700mg Test and used 700mg Primo+ 700 Mast.

As of 23/07 For his prep, he's using this: