A slight change in my routine. Your input

[Grizzly]

My hang clean is better than my full clean(both are technically power cleans. I don't have the ability to do an actual full clean). There is one of two problems going on then. 1) My technique is flawed on the full clean and it ruins the net effect. 2) My pulling power from the floor is poor.

I tend to believe it's the former of the two, but I'm going to go on the assumption that it's my pulling power that is off. Plus, it's easier to fix the latter than it is to develop great technique when I don't have access to a coach, or anyone who knows what the hell they're talking about, for that matter.

As such, I've decided to replace cleans with deadlifts in my workout. This will now have deadlifts in my workout 2X/wk. As it stands, one day would be 5X3 and the other day is 3X3(the original DL day).

Here, then, is my question(s):

1) Should I keep this scheme?
A) if I keep this scheme, then do I...
i) make the 3X3 day my starting day and try and hit the same weight for an aditional 2 sets
ii) Make the 5X3 my base set up and use the 3X3 day as an active recovery sort of thing

2) Do the 3X3 day as my base and then do the next day as 3X5

3) Do the 5X3 and then have the second day as a 2X8(same total number of reps...almost)

I tend not to like option 3. I'm more concerned with strength than anything and I don't see where 8 reps will do anything but make me bored and tired. Perhaps I'm wrong on that and I am open to suggestions, though. But, as far as I'm concerned, muscle inevitably comes with strength so I'll suceed in accomplishing two goals, whereas strenght does not always come with more muscle.

I'm leaning towards option 1, but I can't decide between subset i and subset ii.

LMK what you think. All opinions are welcome, as long as you're not talking out of your ass.

 

[madman]

I shall pedal softly here so I don't get yelled at by the infamous Griz, but here is my opinion on this.

I like 1.a.ii the best out of all three choices. Deadlift drain me for several days when I really go hard and heavy. So if you doing them twice a week your treating your body like a whore. If you hit it truly hard on the 5x3 day you will be spent for a two to four days. Then when you hit the 3x3 "active recovery" in which you could just concentrate on form, explosiveness and muscle contractions without killing your muscles again.

I can see when doing deads for a while this way could help your pulling power to fix your hang clean/full clean problems.

 

[MaxRep]

Griz,
I'm not a powerlifter so the following is just my opinion and experiences.

If you feel your pulling power/technique from the floor is a weak area, then focusing on deads for awhile is a good idea... strengthen the weakest link.

As far as the specific program, I like 1.ii. the best. From my experience, the second workout of the week works best at a reduced load. I'm not sure there's a right or wrong as it seems to be a personal preference thing.

Good luck!
MaxRep

 

[Grizzly]

Ok, looks like we've got 2 for 1ii. I can dig that. Thanks guys.

 

[FearMy6Pak]

I agree with the two above. As MadMan stated above after your first workout of the week your legs will be toast for 2-4 days so the second workout will need to be a reduced load so you will be at 100% by your next deadlift day.

Ohh and I cant see you doing plan 3.... 8 reps? who are you lee priest all of a sudden? LoL j/k bro but i thought you liked staying under 6 reps all the time.

 

[madman]

Ok, looks like we've got 2 for 1ii. I can dig that. Thanks guys.

Your welcome you big furball

 

[monsoon]

What specifically is the flaw with your clean, first pull, second or catch.
If it's the first, then max is correct. But you should approach the dead as if it were a clean. If it's the second you could do high pulls from the floor, and the third, practice and front squat.

 

[Grizzly]

It's the first pull as far as I can tell. If I can hang clean X amount of weight and only full clean X-30 amount of weight, then it must be the first pull somehow.

 

[monsoon]

I wnder if your setup is wrong, do you approach it the same way you would a dead?

 

[Grizzly]

No because, from what I've read, the ass should be lower and the shoulders over the bar as opposed to behind it.

 

[monsoon]

it's really hard to tell without actually seeing you do it. But you do alot of hip dominate work right?

 

[Grizzly]

Like I said, I'm sure my form is off since I don't have access to a knowledgeable coach. I mean, you can read shit all day, but that doesn't mean that you can duplicate what you read, you know?

I'd say I do a fair amount of hip dominant work. Squats(I squat low and fairly wide), RDL and deads(don't know if the last two qualify as dominant, but they're in the top 3 movers).

 

[Freddy]

I'd say make one day conventional deads, and the other RDLs...but it looks like you're already doing RDLs.

If you're already doing RDLs, and you're already doing deads, you don't need a 3rd deadlift movement in there. If you're going to cut out cleans altogether, than I would do goodmornings in place of your old clean training.

Whats your current routine look like, Grizz, do you have it posted in another thread?

 

[Phreezer]

I'd say make one day conventional deads, and the other RDLs...but it looks like you're already doing RDLs.

If you're already doing RDLs, and you're already doing deads, you don't need a 3rd deadlift movement in there. If you're going to cut out cleans altogether, than I would do goodmornings in place of your old clean training.

Whats your current routine look like, Grizz, do you have it posted in another thread?

I agree with Freddy on the fact that there is no need to do a 3rd DL movement every week.

Let's say that neither option 1 or 2 is the problem...Have you considered your explosivness? How often do you work in reverse banded DL'S? or Chains? or use bands or chains while doing squat?

If you're going to remover cleans then I would be sure to add in GM's like freddy said, You may also try suspended good mornings...and I would consider working in Pullthroughs and Glute Ham raises a bit more into your workout.

Personaly, I don't know if I would consider a heavy 3X3 active recovery... Have you thought about buying/building a sled? or doing any tireflips or truck pushing?

Also how do you deadlift? Sumo or Trad?

What does your current split look like?

 

[Gavin Laird]

Grizz,

Your putting the bar in the wrong place when you do the power cleans, thats all that wrong bro. If you can hang clean it but not full clean it then it is technique not strength that is the problem.

Personally Id make one day a DL day for moderate sets / reps (2-6 of 3-5 reps) with a "training" load and long rests and on the other day Id do power cleans, then hang cleans then high pulls then power shrugs then clean deadlifts for 1 - 3 sets each adding load as I went, keeping the rests moderate. Niiiiiiiice.

eg 100Kg power clean - Work on form / position of second pull. Singles.

140Kg - Hang clean for 2 x 2

160Kg - High pull for 3 of 1 -3

180Kg - power shrug / low pull 2 x 2

210Kg - Clean deads 2 x 3-5.

Just an idea.

G.

 

[Grizzly]

Well, now there's a load of information coming at me. LOL

Freddy- It's the same routine we had discussed before. Currently, I know I have it posted in AnimalMass' "How to learn MMA"(or whatever the hell the title was) thread in the general discussion area. Also, it's in this section somewhere a few pages back, I"m sure.

Good mornings. I like that idea, eventhough I do really love to deadlift. Actually, I currently have 3 DL days in there already.(2 RDL and 1 DL) But, I don't really count RDL's as deadlifts. Since I try to make sure I focus on the hammies, it just doesn't seem the same to me, but I guess it is.

Phreezer-

Nope, I've never worked with bands or chains. What exactly is a "pullthrough"? I'm seriously limited on equipment(to the point where I"m not even sure there's an acceptable lying hamstring machine) so I don't know if I'd be able to pull off doing the glute/ham raises, but I think I would like to replace 1 session of RDL with them if you can LMK how I could devise a makeshift piece of equipment.

Yep, I've thought about buying/building(not so much the latter) a sled. Nope, no tire flips. Nope, no truck pulls. The reason I can't do any of this? I live in a small 1 bedroom apartment and I don't think they want to let me keep an 800lb tire sitting in the front lawn. LOL I could check and see if they've left the football sled out at the local HS, though.

I DL in the traditional style. I can't stand sumo! It's too weird to me.

Gavin-

Looks like I must have something going right for me, then. That's pretty much what I do, with a few minor changes.

The day in question did/does go:

Cleans 5X3
Hang cleans 2X10
RDL- 3X10
Power shrugs- 3X10

 

[monsoon]

I was thinking this morning that you should try high pulls, lol but I see the experts have come out.

you can do glute/ham raises anywhere, you don't need any special equipment, just somewhere to brace your feet.

maybe there are some big crates or tires at work you can push around.

 

[monsoon]

oh yeah, btw, gavins clean routine looks alot like my snatch routine, and it made a big difference.

 

[Grizzly]

Why the high pulls? Correct me if I'm wrong, but highpulls are, essentially, the same as an upright row with a wider(clean) grip, si?

 

[Grizzly]

The reason I would consider the 3X3 somewhat of a "light" workout, if you will, is because it would be a lessened volume than previously in the week. I'm currently squatting 2X/wk at 5X5. I keep the weight the same both times. I feel that this doesn't overload me at all and it allows for the second day to make the weight seem almost easy. I figured the same logic would apply to the deadlifts.