Are there still any Bush supporters here?

[van-man]

Globalization is a forgone conclusion. Unless we destroy all the technology of the last 20 years, there's no way to avoid it.

You are one hundred percent correct on that Grizzly. Unless there is a drastic upheaval of the world economic market place, there is no way around globalism. It is competitive necessity at this point.
True there are many down sides to such a market place, but so long as price is the ultimate market driver then there is no other recourse.

 

[Grizzly]

Depends on your definition of "downsides". IIRC, Mr. Dionysus is a socialist(forgive me if I'm wrong, as that's a serious accusation ), which truly makes me wonder what he thinks is so wrong with it.

Globalization has only "hurt" Americans and other highly industrialized nations. It has done nothing but raise that standard of living of the savages around the world. In the end, the entire world benefits.

Now, I'm not saying I think this is some great achievement. Quite frankly, as long as I'm making a damned good living, I don't give a shit if you're starving. I don't have a "duty" to any of you assfuckers. However, since "the good of the whole" is the moral imperative of the day, no matter how asinine that is, it seems to me that globalization should be welcomed by all.

Of course, that goes over just as well as telling the hippie, socialist pig fucker who espouses egalitarianism to give 1/2 of his salary to the bum he just saw. Apparently, it's only alright to make the uber-rich give away their shit, not the "normal" people.

 

[van-man]

True true. For me, the downsides are the specialized economies and the inefficiencies that large global corps create when compared to the numerous smaller individual companies that used to perform the same function.
Specialized economies leave nations incomplete and unable to self sustain in times of crisis. A perfect example of this is the American steel industry. I mean its gone! If we want steel we have to turn to Mexico, Brazil, or worse... China! Heaven help us if we something were to happen and we were no longer able to trade with these suppliers because we don't have anything to fall back on.
Efficiency loss is represented by global agricultural corps. I read a study during the course of my undergrad by one of my secret socialist philosophy professors that raised some interesting observations. In Latin America, most of the private farms have been bought out by the mutinational corps dominating the market today. But, when gross agricultural yields were measured, these global corps produced with far less efficiency than the old world farmers. These corps won out simply because they controled the flow of goods to the market place. It was much easier for this one company to schedule a train to run though central america to pick up crops from all of its farms than it is for hundreds of small farmers to try to individually deliver their goods.

 

[Dionysus]

Globalization has only "hurt" Americans and other highly industrialized nations. It has done nothing but raise that standard of living of the savages around the world. In the end, the entire world benefits.

I disagree that the whole world will benefit.

As natural law would have it, only the strongest survive and thrive enough to pass on their genes. When we change the natural order by allowing the weak to thrive at the expense of the strong, we create a society that is self destroying.

I say let nature do what she would with the "savages" as Griz put it. If they were meant to starve and die off, then so be it. If they thrive and industrialize, so be it.
But funding their existance with money and jobs taken from the industrialized and competative nations is only destroying the process of natural selection.

 

[Bob Smith]

Specialized economies leave nations incomplete

That goes against most everything in international economics. A nation doesnt have to be "complete." If we were complete, we would produce every single good and service that Americans buy. 1) thats not possible, we simply dont have the capacity and work force to do it, and 2) that would make those goods and services more expensive.


Specialization (ie, competitive advantage) is the reason we can buy stuff at Walmart for half the price of its American-made counterpart. You build what you excel at, and Ill build what I excel at. We'll import/export the rest and we'll both be better off because I will be able to supply you my goods for less than you could produce them on your own. Thats why China, India, and a lot of Southeast Asia is growing so rapidly, they have a competitive advantage in terms of really cheap labor. Why pay some American union worker $25/hr to do something that a little Asian man can and will do for $2.75/hr? You dont. And its part of the reason why the American auto industry is dying. They never adapted to change, and with a global marketplace if you dont change you will die. GM is a perfect example of "Im king of the hill....oh shit, here comes Toyota. Im king of the hill" (as Toyota is kicking GM down the hill).

 

[van-man]

That goes against most everything in international economics. A nation doesnt have to be "complete." If we were complete, we would produce every single good and service that Americans buy. 1) thats not possible, we simply dont have the capacity and work force to do it, and 2) that would make those goods and services more expensive.


Specialization (ie, competitive advantage) is the reason we can buy stuff at Walmart for half the price of its American-made counterpart. You build what you excel at, and Ill build what I excel at. We'll import/export the rest and we'll both be better off because I will be able to supply you my goods for less than you could produce them on your own. Thats why China, India, and a lot of Southeast Asia is growing so rapidly, they have a competitive advantage in terms of really cheap labor. Why pay some American union worker $25/hr to do something that a little Asian man can and will do for $2.75/hr? You dont. And its part of the reason why the American auto industry is dying. They never adapted to change, and with a global marketplace if you dont change you will die. GM is a perfect example of "Im king of the hill....oh shit, here comes Toyota. Im king of the hill" (as Toyota is kicking GM down the hill).

Bob you're not saying anything I don't already know. My postition is - I don't like it. I think its great that we can all save money buy purchasing goods from countries that can manufacture goods at a lower cost. But, when we depend on other countries as sole supplier to our needs and we allow our infrastructer to wain as a result, then I think we put ourselves in a dangerous postition.

You mentioned union workers. This, I think, is the reason the american auto industry and the former american steel industry suffer the fate that they are. Unions are a leech on the economy. They unjustly enrich unskilled workers. Quite simply, what these people do does not justify their salaries. They have made american industry a bad investment.
And as the old investors adage goes - don't ever put all your eggs in one basket. My mentality is that there is the U.S. basket and the international basket, and we've left nothing in our own.

 

[THL]

That goes against most everything in international economics. A nation doesnt have to be "complete." If we were complete, we would produce every single good and service that Americans buy. 1) thats not possible, we simply dont have the capacity and work force to do it, and 2) that would make those goods and services more expensive.


Specialization (ie, competitive advantage) is the reason we can buy stuff at Walmart for half the price of its American-made counterpart. You build what you excel at, and Ill build what I excel at. We'll import/export the rest and we'll both be better off because I will be able to supply you my goods for less than you could produce them on your own. Thats why China, India, and a lot of Southeast Asia is growing so rapidly, they have a competitive advantage in terms of really cheap labor. Why pay some American union worker $25/hr to do something that a little Asian man can and will do for $2.75/hr? You dont. And its part of the reason why the American auto industry is dying. They never adapted to change, and with a global marketplace if you dont change you will die. GM is a perfect example of "Im king of the hill....oh shit, here comes Toyota. Im king of the hill" (as Toyota is kicking GM down the hill).

I don't know about you Bob, but I'll gladly pay a few bucks more for something made in the USA vs most of the Chinese junk that is available now.

I do agree that unions are a big problem over here but that's not the only problem. Tax breaks to companies that keep manufacturing here would be a big help. And all these countries that want to trade with us need to start buying our goods too. Right now it's practicaly a one way street.

 

[Bob Smith]

You mentioned union workers. This, I think, is the reason the american auto industry and the former american steel industry suffer the fate that they are. Unions are a leech on the economy. They unjustly enrich unskilled workers. Quite simply, what these people do does not justify their salaries. They have made american industry a bad investment.

I couldnt agree more.

I don't know about you Bob, but I'll gladly pay a few bucks more for something made in the USA vs most of the Chinese junk that is available now.

When the quality is the same, why pay more? I cant really think of anything off the top of my head where I would say "Im buying American no matter what." The one example I can think of is high-end furniture. If I had the $$, I would buy Stickley every time, but thats because its a VERY high quality product that will easily last 100+ years (we have some pieces in our family that still look new at 50-60 years old). Other than that, Ill make choices based on what is best for my wallet, and unfortunately, that usually means buying something other than American.

And really, what "crap" does the Chinese, Japs, or Koreans make that is a great deal lower quality than American?

 

[van-man]

And really, what "crap" does the Chinese, Japs, or Koreans make that is a great deal lower quality than American?

Daewoo!

 

[sc redneck]

Daewoo!

Booze,, cigs,,,,

 

[THL]

And really, what "crap" does the Chinese, Japs, or Koreans make that is a great deal lower quality than American?

Take a look at a Harbor Frieght catalog. All of the tools in there are dirt cheap and most are garbage. The best tools, for the most part, come from Europe, Japan, and the US. All of them are expensive, but they last forever. There are exceptions of course, but even the good stuff that comes out of China (like some of the Ridgid tools) are just as expensive as domestic/Euro/Jap stuff.

The Chinese are also well known for ignoring patents. There are about 300 motorcycle manufacturers in China now and almost every one of them makes a copy of somebody elses bike. And the ones that aren't copies, like all the $1000 quads and minis you see all over Ebay and in every small town in America, are not near the quality of their Euro and Jap competitors. But they are cheap and people are buying them. I hang out at a couple different motocross forums and almost everyone that has bought one of these will never do it again.

Been into a Steve and Barry's lately? Everything in the store is $7.99 and made in China. I bought a couple of the shirts and I can already see that they aren't going to last long.

The Chinese are also making replacement parts for domestic autos and trying to pass them off as the real thing. We print a magazine at work called World Trade and there was a write up in there about how this is becoming a huge problem.

I find it amazing that some of you guys don't see any of this as a problem. And I didn't even mention the child slave labor. Free trade is great and I'm all for it when everyone plays by the rules, but that is not what is happening.

 

[Grizzly]

I agree. Virtually everything out there right now is crap. Straight fucking crap. I know the last company I worked for imported all of their parts from China. Talk about a buch of shit parts.

But, as Manwhore will attest, he and most of the American people want cheap, crappy shit so they can change all of their stuff every 3 years. Me? I want the same kitchen table from the day I buy it until the day I die.

 

[van-man]

Consumerism is like a mental disorder. And I fear it is contagious!

 

[THL]

Consumerism is like a mental disorder. And I fear it is contagious!

?????????????????

 

[van-man]

it was a response to grizz's statement about how people are always wanting to "upgrade" their personal belongings as often as possible instead of purchasing a quality product that will last a long time and provide adequate return on its cost.
Example: how many people acutally own their car for the entirety of its useable life? not many.

And by contagious I meant that seeing all these stupid comercials for new products makes people feel as though they need to buy a new widget or whatever.

thats all I was saying...

 

[jasthace]

Why pay some American union worker $25/hr to do something that a little Asian man can and will do for $2.75/hr? .

A Thai labourer is earning around 300 baht a day,that's about $8 usd,and they work for 10-12 hours for that.
That's very hard to compete with,these people are very hard workers and are driven.After we funnel money into Asian economys for a couple or hundred years,they will be rich and we will be poor.