Atkins diet and building muscle?

[Michael T]

Ok here is a question for anyone who has been on the
Atkins low carb diet. My wife and I have been on it for about
a month now and we have each lost a little weight. I have been
trying to hold onto my muscle mass that I have, which isn't much.
Is it possible to actually build any muscle at all while on this diet?
Or is it just possible to keep your existing muscle and still loose
body fat?

Michael T,

 

[greyowl]

Ok here is a question for anyone who has been on the
Atkins low carb diet. My wife and I have been on it for about
a month now and we have each lost a little weight. I have been
trying to hold onto my muscle mass that I have, which isn't much.
Is it possible to actually build any muscle at all while on this diet?
Or is it just possible to keep your existing muscle and still loose
body fat

I don't see why you can't build muscle on this diet since it is moderately high in fat and protein.

For ther ultimate in low-carb diets that promote muscle growth check out Dr. Mauro di Pasquale's Anabolic diet. While you're on it your wife can try his Metabolic diet, which is similar but not as hard-core.

 

[jonny21]

Wouldn't recommend it. Carbohydrates(CHO) are a necessary part of well balanced nutrition as well as muscle growth and appearance (fullness 2* glycogen/h2o). Your body will manufacture glucose from Amino acids/ glycerol(gluconeogenesis) in the absence of CHO. Unfortuneately some of those amino acids will be obtained from your muscle stores. This is a catabolic process and your body cannot be anabolic and catabolic at the same time. Besides, you will probably feel like shit with decreased energy levels 2* low glucose levels. I am not saying CKD style of dieting does not have its place in bodybuilding; I just think it is better utilized when used during a cutting phase of training not bulking phase. JMO

 

[MANWHORE]

I wouldn't eat that much sat fat and expect to keep healthy .. I saw results from the PSMF diet Bob showed me ... I would keep protein high as it will not only hold muscle but it takes the most energy to digest speeding the metabolizm more than carbs and fats,eat only GOOD carbs such as Mono and Poly,and keep carbs low like under 20g/day ... That i believe is good short term but if you are looking to go long term i have a diet you may be interested in .. I didn't write it or make it up but i will send it to you,if you PM me ... It's very long and by far the best diet i have ever seen,it just takes dedication to make sure you get the right carb,pro,and fat combos at each meal .. I don't use it but i don't need to lose fat .. I need to gain weight

 

[hackskii]

Just found this.
Yes you can build some muscle but it wont be as fast as having a ballanced diet with the addition of carbs.

Atkins diet, or ketogenic diets do work, I have used them with very good success and swapping Ketones and FFA's for fuel rather than glucose and glycogen for fuel will help burn bodyfat.

I actually do have very high energy with sustained blood sugar levels from a ketogenic diet.
I get more tired from a traditonal diet than a keto diet, probably due to rise and spiking of blood sugars with some involvement of insulin.

Vince Gironda used to train guys on diets high in fat and protein.
There is a ton of evidence that the diet does not raise cholesterol and even some evedance that meat can lower cholesterol.

Our hormones are made from cholesterol and yes even test is made from cholesterol.
Diets low in cholesterol and fat usually have low test levels too.

Every bodybuilder I know drops carbs when dieting, many carb cycle.

Many of those polyunsaturated oils are very bad and considered rancid, many drive up AA in the body and this is a pro-inflammatory substance in the body, also drives up inflammatory eicasinoid production too.
Not to mention the typical American diet is high in Omega 6 to Omega 3 ratio and polyunsaturated oils promote this ratio even higher.
Good ratio of 3 to 6 is 1/1 to 1/4 typical American diet is 1/10 to 1/25, adding more polys in the diet only raise the ratio and raise the inflammation in the body.

 

[MANWHORE]

Our hormones are made from cholesterol and yes even test is made from cholesterol.
Diets low in cholesterol and fat usually have low test levels too.

All cholesterol is not the same as all fats are not the same .. Sat fat is not a good thing .. were are the studies showing high levels of sat fat to be good at lowering cholesterol? .. Do i see an Eskimo study coming up some where .. I really hope not

 

[hackskii]

Only about 20% of our cholesterol is from diet the other 80% is manufactured by the liver.
so if you take in more cholesterol then the liver wont produce as much.
Not saying to pig out on cholesterol layden foods but you dont get high cholesterol from a typical diet that has whole foods with fruits and vegetables.

Problem is more on the lines of poor food choices that have trans fats and hydrogenated oils, too many vegetable oils, these are the foods to avoid.

Eggs, butter, cheese are just fine and everything in moderation is fine too.
just like wine, a glass is good, a bottle is bad.
Get the picture here?

There is nothing wrong with saturated fats and not if you eat a ballanced diet.
Avoiding saturated fats all together is not a good idea, you need some in your diet to be healthy and ballanced.

With your comment ManWhore that saturated fat is bad tells me you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[wildfox]

Ok here is a question for anyone who has been on the
Atkins low carb diet. My wife and I have been on it for about
a month now and we have each lost a little weight. I have been
trying to hold onto my muscle mass that I have, which isn't much.
Is it possible to actually build any muscle at all while on this diet?
Or is it just possible to keep your existing muscle and still loose
body fat?

Michael T,

Get a copy of Natural Hormonal Enhancement by Rob Faigin. Much better.

WF

 

[hackskii]

I think I would like to read that book.

 

[wildfox]

I think I would like to read that book.

There is another thread in this forum about it. I know another guy on here is planning to start the diet in the book. I got my copy at www.beyond-a-century.com. You can also go to the author's website at www.extique.com.

WF

 

[hackskii]

There is another thread in this forum about it. I know another guy on here is planning to start the diet in the book. I got my copy at www.beyond-a-century.com. You can also go to the author's website at www.extique.com.

WF

Oh cool, thanks for that I love to read stuff like this.
Cheers

 

[MANWHORE]

Only about 20% of our cholesterol is from diet the other 80% is manufactured by the liver.
so if you take in more cholesterol then the liver wont produce as much.
Not saying to pig out on cholesterol layden foods but you dont get high cholesterol from a typical diet that has whole foods with fruits and vegetables.

Problem is more on the lines of poor food choices that have trans fats and hydrogenated oils, too many vegetable oils, these are the foods to avoid.

Eggs, butter, cheese are just fine and everything in moderation is fine too.
just like wine, a glass is good, a bottle is bad.
Get the picture here?

There is nothing wrong with saturated fats and not if you eat a ballanced diet.
Avoiding saturated fats all together is not a good idea, you need some in your diet to be healthy and ballanced.

With your comment ManWhore that saturated fat is bad tells me you have no idea what you are talking about.

You don't need sat fat .. you do need fat so who doesn't know what they are talking about?? AND Dietary cholesterol has nothing to do with the cholesterol in your body it's the sugar and sat fat that determines that ..

 

[hackskii]

Id say that if you tell me you don’t need saturated fats in your diet you need to come to the table with any information supporting your claim.
In fact if you read below your claim is not only unsupported but also unhealthy and not sound nutritional advice.



The Framingham Heart Study is often cited as proof of the lipid hypothesis. This study began in 1948 and involved some 6,000 people from the town of Framingham, Massachusetts. Two groups were compared at five-year intervals; those who consumed little cholesterol and saturated fat and those who consumed large amounts. After 40 years, the director of this study had to admit: "In Framingham, Mass, the more saturated fat one ate, the more cholesterol one ate, the more calories one ate, the lower the person's serum cholesterol. . . we found that the people who ate the most cholesterol, ate the most saturated fat, ate the most calories, weighed the least and were the most physically active."3 The study did show that those who weighed more and had abnormally high blood cholesterol levels were slightly more at risk for future heart disease; but weight gain and cholesterol levels had an inverse correlation with fat and cholesterol intake in the diet.4

In a multi-year British study involving several thousand men, half were asked to reduce saturated fat and cholesterol in their diets, to stop smoking and to increase the amounts of unsaturated oils such as margarine and vegetable oils. After one year, those on the "good" diet had 100% more deaths than those on the "bad" diet, in spite of the fact that those men on the "bad" diet continued to smoke! But in describing the study, the author ignored these results in favor of the politically correct conclusion: "The implication for public health policy in the U.K. is that a preventive programme such as we evaluated in this trial is probably effective. . . ."5

The U.S. Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial, (MRFIT) sponsored by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute, compared mortality rates and eating habits of over 12,000 men. Those with "good" dietary habits (reduced saturated fat and cholesterol, reduced smoking, etc.) showed a marginal reduction in total coronary heart disease, but their overall mortality from all causes was higher. Similar results have been obtained in several other studies. The few studies that indicate a correlation between fat reduction and a decrease in coronary heart disease mortality also document a concurrent increase in deaths from cancer, brain hemorrhage, suicide and violent death.6

 

[hackskii]

Mother's milk provides a higher proportion of cholesterol than almost any other food. It also contains over 50% of its calories as fat, much of it saturated fat. Both cholesterol and saturated fat are essential for growth in babies and children, especially the development of the brain.

Under your accusation of not needing saturated fats mothers milk is no good right?


As a final example, let us consider the French. Anyone who has eaten his way across France has observed that the French diet is just loaded with saturated fats in the form of butter, eggs, cheese, cream, liver, meats and rich pat's. Yet the French have a lower rate of coronary heart disease than many other western countries. In the United States, 315 of every 100,000 middle-aged men die of heart attacks each year; in France the rate is 145 per 100,000. In the Gascony region, where goose and duck liver form a staple of the diet, this rate is a remarkably low 80 per 100,000.25 This phenomenon has recently gained international attention as the French Paradox.

Can you explain this one for me if saturated fats are to be avoided?

 

[hackskii]

If saturated fats are so bad then why is this?

Saturated fatty acids constitute at least 50% of the cell membranes. They are what gives our cells necessary stiffness and integrity.


They play a vital role in the health of our bones. For calcium to be effectively incorporated into the skeletal structure, at least 50% of the dietary fats should be saturated.38


They lower Lp(a), a substance in the blood that indicates proneness to heart disease.39 They protect the liver from alcohol and other toxins, such as Tylenol©.40


They enhance the immune system.41


They are needed for the proper utilization of essential fatty acids.
Elongated omega-3 fatty acids are better retained in the tissues when the diet is rich in saturated fats. 42


Saturated 18-carbon stearic acid and 16-carbon palmitic acid are the preferred foods for the heart, which is why the fat around the heart muscle is highly saturated.43 The heart draws on this reserve of fat in times of stress.


Short- and medium-chain saturated fatty acids have important antimicrobial properties. They protect us against harmful microorganisms in the digestive tract.
The scientific evidence, honestly evaluated, does not support the assertion that "artery-clogging" saturated fats cause heart disease.44 Actually, evaluation of the fat in artery clogs reveals that only about 26% is saturated. The rest is unsaturated, of which more than half is polyunsaturated.45

What about cholesterol?
And what about cholesterol? Here, too, the public has been misinformed. Our blood vessels can become damaged in a number of ways, through irritations caused by free radicals or viruses, or because they are structurally weak, and when this happens, the body's natural healing substance steps in to repair the damage. That substance is cholesterol. Cholesterol is a high-molecular-weight alcohol that is manufactured in the liver and in most human cells. Like saturated fats, the cholesterol we make and consume plays many vital roles:

Along with saturated fats, cholesterol in the cell membrane gives our cells necessary stiffness and stability. When the diet contains an excess of polyunsaturated fatty acids, these replace saturated fatty acids in the cell membrane, so that the cell walls actually become flabby. When this happens, cholesterol from the blood is "driven" into the tissues to give them structural integrity. This is why serum cholesterol levels may go down temporarily when we replace saturated fats with polyunsaturated oils in the diet.46


Cholesterol acts as a precursor to vital corticosteroids, hormones that help us deal with stress and protect the body against heart disease and cancer; and to the sex hormones like androgen, testosterone, estrogen and progesterone.


Cholesterol is a precursor to vitamin D, a very important fat-soluble vitamin needed for healthy bones and nervous system, proper growth, mineral metabolism, muscle tone, insulin production, reproduction and immune system function.


The bile salts are made from cholesterol. Bile is vital for digestion and assimilation of fats in the diet.


Recent research shows that cholesterol acts as an antioxidant.47 This is the likely explanation for the fact that cholesterol levels go up with age. As an antioxidant, cholesterol protects us against free radical damage that leads to heart disease and cancer.


Cholesterol is needed for proper function of serotonin receptors in the brain.48 Serotonin is the body's natural "feel-good" chemical. Low cholesterol levels have been linked to aggressive and violent behavior, depression and suicidal tendencies.


Mother's milk is especially rich in cholesterol and contains a special enzyme that helps the baby utilize this nutrient. Babies and children need cholesterol-rich foods throughout their growing years to ensure proper development of the brain and nervous system.


Dietary cholesterol plays an important role in maintaining the health of the intestinal wall.49 This is why low-cholesterol vegetarian diets can lead to leaky gut syndrome and other intestinal disorders.
Cholesterol is not the cause of heart disease but rather a potent antioxidant weapon against free radicals in the blood, and a repair substance that helps heal arterial damage (although the arterial plaques themselves contain very little cholesterol.) However, like fats, cholesterol may be damaged by exposure to heat and oxygen. This damaged or oxidized cholesterol seems to promote both injury to the arterial cells as well as a pathological buildup of plaque in the arteries.50 Damaged cholesterol is found in powdered eggs, in powdered milk (added to reduced-fat milks to give them body) and in meats and fats that have been heated to high temperatures in frying and other high-temperature processes.

High serum cholesterol levels often indicate that the body needs cholesterol to protect itself from high levels of altered, free-radical-containing fats. Just as a large police force is needed in a locality where crime occurs frequently, so cholesterol is needed in a poorly nourished body to protect the individual from a tendency to heart disease and cancer. Blaming coronary heart disease on cholesterol is like blaming the police for murder and theft in a high crime area.

Poor thyroid function (hypothyroidism) will often result in high cholesterol levels. When thyroid function is poor, usually due to a diet high in sugar and low in usable iodine, fat-soluble vitamins and other nutrients, the body floods the blood with cholesterol as an adaptive and protective mechanism, providing a superabundance of materials needed to heal tissues and produce protective steroids. Hypothyroid individuals are particularly susceptible to infections, heart disease and cancer.51


You were saying what about saturated fats not needed?

 

[hackskii]

THE IMPORTANCE OF SATURATED FATS FOR BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS

By Mary G. Enig, PhD

Many people recognize that saturated fats are needed for energy, hormone production, cellular membranes and for organ padding. You may be surprised to learn that certain saturated fatty acids are also needed for important signaling and stabilization processes in the body.

Signaling processes work in the cells at the level of the membrane proteins, many of which are called G-protein receptors. The G-protein receptors become stimulated by different molecules and can be turned off or on in a manner similar to a binary light switch, which remains on for a limited time and then flips itself off until it is stimulated again.

The saturated fatty acids that play important roles in these processes are the 16-carbon palmitic acid, the 14-carbon myristic acid and the 12-carbon lauric acid. These saturated fatty acids are found in certain food fats. Palmitic acid, for example, comprises 45 percent of palm oil and about 25 percent of animal and dairy fats. Furthermore, the body makes palmitic acid out of excess carbohydrates and excess protein.

A biochemical process called palmitoylation, in which the body uses palmitic acid in stabilization processes, although not very well known, is very important to our health.

When these important saturated fatty acids are not readily available, certain growth factors in the cells and organs will not be properly aligned. This is because the various receptors, such as G-protein receptors, need to be coupled with lipids in order to provide localization of function.

The messages that are sent from the outside of the cell to the inner part of the cell control many functions including those activated by, for example, adrenaline in the primitive mammalian fight/flight reactions. When the adrenal gland produces adrenaline and the adrenaline (beta-adrenergic) receptor communicates with the G-protein and its signal cascade, the parts of the body are alerted to the need for action; the heart beats faster, the blood flow to the gut decreases while the blood flow to the muscles increases and the production of glucose is stimulated.

The G-proteins come in different forms; the alpha subunit is covalently linked to myristic acid and the function of this subunit is important for turning on and off the binding to an enzyme called adenylate cyclase and thus the amplification of important hormone signals.

When researchers looked at the fatty acid composition of the phospholipids in the T-cells (white blood cells), from both young and old donors, they found that a loss of saturated fatty acids in the lymphocytes was responsible for age-related declines in white blood cell function. They found that they could correct cellular deficiencies in palmitic acid and myristic acid by adding these saturated fatty acids.

Most Westerners consume very little myristic acid because it is provided by coconut oil and dairy fats, both of which we are told to avoid. But myristic acid is a very important fatty acid, which the body uses to stabilize many different proteins, including proteins used in the immune system and to fight tumors. This function is called myristoylation; it occurs when myristic acid is attached to the protein in a specific position where it functions usefully. For example, the body has the ability to suppress production of tumors from lung cancer cells if a certain genetically determined suppressor gene is available. This gene is called fus1 and is a protein that has been modified with covalent addition of the saturated fatty acid myristic acid. Thus, the loss of myristic acid from the diet can have unfortunate consequences, including cancer and immune system dysfunction.

Lauric acid has several functions. It is an antimicrobial fatty acid on its own and as a monoglyceride. It also has the function of stabilization when it is attached to certain proteins in a similar fashion to myristic acid and palmitic acid.

Stearic acid is the 18-carbon saturated fatty acid. The main sources are animal tallows, which contain about 20-25 percent stearic acid, and chocolate, which contains about 35 percent stearic acid. In other foods it occurs only on levels of 1-2 percent.

How much total saturated do we need? During the 1970s, researchers from Canada found that animals fed rapeseed oil and canola oil developed heart lesions. This problem was corrected when they added saturated fat to the animals diets. On the basis of this and other research, they ultimately determined that the diet should contain at least 25 percent of fat as saturated fat. Among the food fats that they tested, the one found to have the best proportion of saturated fat was lard, the very fat we are told to avoid under all circumstances!

These are some of the complex but vital reasons we need to include palm oil, coconut oil, butter and lard in our diets.

 

[hackskii]

Saturated fat article by: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Greg Arnold, DC, CSCS, September 12, 2004, abstracted from Saturated Fats: What Dietary Intakes from the September 2004 issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

When saturated fat was found to raise cholesterol, recommendations were made to minimize the amount of saturate fat in our diet1 since it was widely believe that saturated fats have no known beneficial role in preventing chronic disease and are not required at any level in the diet.2 However, a recent article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition3 has presented evidence that saturated fats do indeed possess some health benefits.

This study reviews research demonstrating the health benefits of saturated fat. For example, saturated fats are the preferred fuel for the heart4 and they possess antiviral5 and antibacterial6 properties. The study states the benefits of several types of saturated fats, including butyric, palmitic, myristic, and lauric acids, all of which are found in human and cows milk.

Unfortunately, the study fails to mention lauric acids abundance in coconut oil. In fact, coconut oil as an excellent source of saturated fat. Finally, they stress the incorporation of saturated fats into our diet as a method of disease prevention.

Saturated fat also promotes health by resisting oxidation, which is considered to be a major player in the aging process.7 Oxidation is the process that damages a healthy cells membrane structures and DNA following oxygen exposure. Oxidation thereby disrupts normal cellular function, resulting in accelerated aging.

Although it has been around for almost 50 years,8 this theory of aging has received much more attention since the plaques found in arteries of heart disease patients contain overwhelming amounts of unsaturated fat.9 When we look at saturated fat, it represents one of the possible solutions to the free radical theory of aging.

So whether theyre protecting us from viruses and harmful bacteria or keeping our cells healthy and dividing properly, saturated fats present an excellent component of our diet that can help to maintain an possibly improve our health.

Reference:
1 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee. Report of the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee on the dietary guidelines for Americans, 2000. June 2000. Internet: www.usda.gov/cnpp/Pubs/DG2000/Full Report.pdf

2 Institute of Medicine. Dietary reference intakes for energy, carbohydrate, fiber, fat, fatty acids, cholesterol, protein, and amino acids. September 2002 http://books.nap.edu/html/dri_macron...eportbrief.pdf

3 German, J.B. and C.J. Dillard, Saturated fats: what dietary intake? Am J Clin Nutr, 2004. 80(3): p. 550-9

4 Lawson LD, Kummerow F. beta-Oxidation of the coenzyme A esters of elaidic, oleic, and stearic acids and their full-cycle intermediates by rat heart mitochondria. Biochim Biophys Acta 1979;573:24554

5 Hornung B, Amtmann E, Sauer G. Lauric acid inhibits the maturation of vesicular stomatitis virus. J Gen Virol 1994;75:35361

6 Sun CQ, OConnor CJ, Roberton AM. The antimicrobial properties of milkfat after partial hydrolysis by calf pregastric lipase. Chem Biol Interact 2002;140:18598

7 Harman, D., The free radical theory of aging. Antioxid Redox Signal, 2003. 5(5): p. 557-61

8 Harman, D., Aging: a theory based on free radical and radiation chemistry. J Gerontol, 1956. 11(3): p. 298-300

9 Ravnskov, U., The Cholesterol Myths: Exposing The Fallacy That Cholesterol and Saturated Fat Cause Heart Disease. 2nd ed. 2000: New Trends Publishing. 320

That should do it for now, if you need more information I can get it but if you take the time to read these then it will become a bit more clear to you why saturated fats are necssary and should not be avoided like you suggest ManWhore.

 

[Loperdk]

In my opinion if you are trying to lose weight the atkins diet is very effective. For gaining muscle it is not. For fueling a workout carbs are needed. Muscle stores glycogen (a pure for of carbohydrates) because it relies on it for energy and not protein. First rule of gaining muscle is go heavy. If you are a trained individual which it doesn't sound like you are because you have commented on you lack of muscle mass, then with my experience in the field any strength gains are a result mainly because of neuromuscular adaptations. Think about the first time you tried to bench press. You couldnt do very much but you kept doing it and soon you doubled your previous max. Trust me this wasnt because of muscle gained but because you body was able to recruit more muscle fibers. Im not saying you wont gain any but it wont nearly be as much. My advice would be to train hard for awhile and get your cardio in. See what happens and let your muscle adapt so you can see the gains from progression and muscle gains. Also get a fitness eval done by a trainer and have at a minimum a skin caliper BF% test done. When you get to this point now try to go Ketogenic and keep lifting. I don't think you will like the effect. Although you will lose weight. Then carb up for a coulple of days and see how it effects your training. Carbs are the energy for your muscles and protein is the repair and structure but glycogen is still essensial for this. You may read that ketones are converted to glycogen but the glycogen is mainly converted for the brain because it need some fuel too. Hope this helps

And for the rest of the diet talk. Any nutrient can be good for us but in excess any nutrient can be bad. Hell even water can kill us.

 

[jasthace]

I think its a lazy mans diet.Cut out sugar as much as possible,eat FIBRE to keep you arteries clean for deposits that can build up causing cancers,eat some fats,BUT dont leave out the all important FIBRE! & cut down on the SUGAR!!