Attention all those on Sub-q injections

[Vforcer2]

I have been very happy with my pellet therapy(it has lasted 4 months this time) but am considering going Subq injections due to the cost. I will not use HCG and have not had to use AI in the past. I hope I would not on Subq

Please tell me if your experience with subq has been positive or negative and what your protocol is.
I need to pull the trigger and make a decision before Tuesday.

In speaking with Tom at Solutions Pharmacy, he tells me that subq will cause T to spike very rapidly. Of course if this is true then I am assuming you have had E2 issues. Please advise if this is the case.

Thanks,
Bruce

 

[JanSz]

I have been very happy with my pellet therapy(it has lasted 4 months this time) but am considering going Subq injections due to the cost. I will not use HCG and have not had to use AI in the past. I hope I would not on Subq

Please tell me if your experience with subq has been positive or negative and what your protocol is.
I need to pull the trigger and make a decision before Tuesday.

In speaking with Tom at Solutions Pharmacy, he tells me that subq will cause T to spike very rapidly. Of course if this is true then I am assuming you have had E2 issues. Please advise if this is the case.

Thanks,
Bruce

Daily applied Tcream should reduce spiking.
Available data for Androgel (expensive) (Fig 1, page3) shows spike of about 100ng/dL over 24 hr period.
http://androgel.com/images/ProfessionalInfo.pdf

I am sssuming that other transdermals are similar.
This levels are probably not as steady as with pellets but much better than shots.

 

[pmgamer18]

Tom is wrong I shoot 3 times a week using a small 27 g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle doing 50 mgs each shot from Depo T 200mgs/ml so my shot is small .25mls. I shoot into my thigh doing this keep my E2 way down. A lot lower then gels ever did. I have a big problem with E2 and this works the best. My Dose of T = 125 mgs a week if I were shooting once a week. No one can tell me shooting with a 1/2" lg. needle is IM.

 

[Vforcer2]

Daily applied Tcream should reduce spiking.
Available data for Androgel (expensive) (Fig 1, page3) shows spike of about 100ng/dL over 24 hr period.
http://androgel.com/images/ProfessionalInfo.pdf

I am sssuming that other transdermals are similar.
This levels are probably not as steady as with pellets but much better than shots.

Appreciate your trying to help, but I am not asking about T cream. CAN YOU SAY EXCESSIVE DHT?

 

[Vforcer2]

Tom is wrong I shoot 3 times a week using a small 27 g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle doing 50 mgs each shot from Depo T 200mgs/ml so my shot is small .25mls. I shoot into my thigh doing this keep my E2 way down. A lot lower then gels ever did. I have a big problem with E2 and this works the best. My Dose of T = 125 mgs a week if I were shooting once a week. No one can tell me shooting with a 1/2" lg. needle is IM.

Phil can a smaller insulin syringe be used or is the oil to thick?

Are you still using A'dex? I know you are using HCG.

What was your most recent T and E2 levels on this protocol?

 

[farmerjohn]

I'm doing Tcyp subQ and have had some rise in E2 but its mostly because my T is higher now (mid 700's) and not because of the subQ injection. But to be honest I have never had Tcyp IM so I can't compare. So far the DIM is enough to keep my E2 down without the need for other AI's. My doctor is Shippen and his belief is subQ will cause a slower rise in T and lower E2 than IM. I'm still trying to get my dose right but now I"m on .8 cc of 100 mg/cc Tcyp. My Tcyp is compounded....see my other thread on that (which I think you posted to). I do not get the stinging Phil has experienced with subQ. Also I'm on 400 iu HCG the 4 days previous to Tcyp shot so that is probably causing some of the E2 rise I had also.

 

[EndoMan]

Did sub-q testosterone cypionate 50mg every 3 days in a 25 gauge 1/2 inch needle with a 3mil syringe.

That worked well and did not spike the levels to bad. But over time the blood levels would continue to rise till you have to fight excess estrogen and all the side effects like bloating etc.

Now i do sub-q testsoterone suspension 12 mg every other day in a 30 gauge 5/8 inch insulin syringe. And add some testosterone/dhea/progesteorne cream every other day.

So far i can control my levels exactly. The key is to not over due the testosterone suspension as it has a half life of 24 hours.

 

[Vforcer2]

I'm doing Tcyp subQ and have had some rise in E2 but its mostly because my T is higher now (mid 700's) and not because of the subQ injection. But to be honest I have never had Tcyp IM so I can't compare. So far the DIM is enough to keep my E2 down without the need for other AI's. My doctor is Shippen and his belief is subQ will cause a slower rise in T and lower E2 than IM. I'm still trying to get my dose right but now I"m on .8 cc of 100 mg/cc Tcyp. My Tcyp is compounded....see my other thread on that (which I think you posted to). I do not get the stinging Phil has experienced with subQ. Also I'm on 400 iu HCG the 4 days previous to Tcyp shot so that is probably causing some of the E2 rise I had also.

John,
How do you feel?
As I recall HCG does not increase your T levels does it(like myself) so it is probably what is causing the E2 problems.
What type of needle do you use for the T?

 

[Vforcer2]

Did sub-q testosterone cypionate 50mg every 3 days in a 25 gauge 1/2 inch needle with a 3mil syringe.

That worked well and did not spike the levels to bad. But over time the blood levels would continue to rise till you have to fight excess estrogen and all the side effects like bloating etc.

Now i do sub-q testsoterone suspension 12 mg every other day in a 30 gauge 5/8 inch insulin syringe. And add some testosterone/dhea/progesteorne cream every other day.

So far i can control my levels exactly. The key is to not over due the testosterone suspension as it has a half life of 24 hours.

Why did you not just lower the Cyp dosage?

Your current protocol is to high maintenance for my liking. Why are you mixing cream in? Why not go with the T suspension daily?

Have you had labs done?

 

[farmerjohn]

I feel a hell of a lot better than I did on androgel before I saw Shippen. I have excellent libido about 1/3 - 1/2 of the time and only occasional hormone related ED. But I really don't have my doses adjusted right yet. I was doing 0.9 cc of the Tcyp once a week and T got up to 1134 so have now cut back. and have not had labs yet. The HCG does get my T up some but not enough to do HCG alone. But I seem to feel best the days on HCG despite the fact they are the 4 days right before my next Tcyp shot when theoretically my T is dropping. I am on this protocol because Shippen would like my T level to go up and down some during the week. He feels this may be a key to good libido rather than energizing the T receptors all the time with a stable and high level of T.

I use a 27g 5/8" needle. I don't think you could easily do Tcyp with much smaller, Its hard enough to push the plunger down with 27g. Its not that bad, I got used to it fast. The only part that hurts is the initial puncture of the skin. I slowly push harder and harder on the syringe until it punctures the skin. They it goes in the rest of the way easily and painlessly. Its not that painful even when it does puncture the skin but that is the worst part. I have found some spots hurt more than ohters. If I put the neddle against the skin and it feels like a bad spot, I just move it 1/4" or so. Its all been sterilized with alchohol. After injecting I found I have to put my finger over the puncture to prevent some from leaking out. Only have to do this for about 30 sec or so. then I clean it with the swab again and I'm done. I rarely have any soreness afterwards but sometimes I do.

 

[pmgamer18]

Phil can a smaller insulin syringe be used or is the oil to thick?

Are you still using A'dex? I know you are using HCG.

What was your most recent T and E2 levels on this protocol?

I am using the 27g 1ml x 1/2" lg. needle because I shoot into my thigh and my Dr. felt using the small insulin syringe it might break the needle shooting into my thigh. But if your going to do subQ into your belly skin this is good. I do 250 IUs of HCG the 2 days each in between my T shots every 3 days. This keeps my Total T at 636 range 181 to 758 ng/dl so this is a little low for me so we went back up to 300 IU's on the HCG. My Free T is 18.9 range 5.6 to 19 pg/ml.
My SHBG is 22 range 23 to 38 nmol/L. So my E2 is 16 pg/ml.

Before this test I was doing 500 IU's of HCG and my levels worked there way up to 1255 for Total T and 31.8 for Free T. This took some time to get there and I feel adding Cortef 5mgs 4 x's a day brought the T levels up this high.

I take Arimidex .5mgs everyday before this I was doing 1mg. everyday. My DHT stays at about 40 on this. Doing gels my DHT was 4 x's over the top of the range.

 

[EndoMan]

Why did you not just lower the Cyp dosage?

Your current protocol is to high maintenance for my liking. Why are you mixing cream in? Why not go with the T suspension daily?

Have you had labs done?

Did all sorts of Cyp dosages.

It is a high maintenance protocol.

The cream is added as needed, when i fell like it.

T suspension daily did work but it was hard to control the excess even with very small shots, even tried shots two times a day. Going every other day seems to work best.

My T-level is between 400-600 every 3 months. It is on the low side but i seem to do well around 500. Range 200-1200~

 

[marianco]

I'm doing Tcyp subQ and have had some rise in E2 but its mostly because my T is higher now (mid 700's) and not because of the subQ injection. But to be honest I have never had Tcyp IM so I can't compare. So far the DIM is enough to keep my E2 down without the need for other AI's. My doctor is Shippen and his belief is subQ will cause a slower rise in T and lower E2 than IM. I'm still trying to get my dose right but now I"m on .8 cc of 100 mg/cc Tcyp. My Tcyp is compounded....see my other thread on that (which I think you posted to). I do not get the stinging Phil has experienced with subQ. Also I'm on 400 iu HCG the 4 days previous to Tcyp shot so that is probably causing some of the E2 rise I had also.

I'm interested in the Sub-Q protocols since I'm not as familiar with them as the IM protocols.

Where do you inject?

 

[pmgamer18]

Here is a cut & paste of how Dr. Shippen does this. I think he shoots into the skin near the side of his body.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heard back from the patient of Dr. Shippen. He injects depo-testosterone 200mg/ml, .35 ml every 3 days into abdominal fat. He splits the injections into two .18 ml injections which is .36 ml, and says this is because a tiny amount will leak out of the injection site.

According to this patient, this dosing schedule leaves him with a stable 900 ng/dl total testosterone level and none of the high estrogen conversion associated with large intramuscular injection.

Apparently Shippen is convinced enough that this is now his preferred method of TRT. I know he starts by trying to get levels into the high normal range by trying to get the body to make its own, but if TRT is called for apparently subcutaneous injection is the first thing he prescribes.

 

[Vforcer2]

Just got back from my new Doc and he is great, open minded about subq injections(he had never heard of them), but I am not sure just how much "in depth" knowledge he has with regards to TRT(but it is better than most doctors which is virtually non existant). That became evident when I asked him if E2 became a problem would he have any problems prescribing a A'dex. His response was "why would a man need an estrogen inhibitor"?. So I informed him, and his polite repsonse was..."H'mm I would have to read up on that first." Fine by me, hope I don't need it anyway, at least he does not have a superiority complex.

He gave me a script for 200mg/cc of Test Propionate (I was not willing to argue for cypionate), needles, B12, and my Armour. I now have a "one stop doc" thank goodness.

UPDATE: I just read up on propionate and it does not look like the best T to inject Subq. It is a quick acting ester and irritates the injection site. Looks like I will be calling to try to get this script changed.

 

[pmgamer18]

Just got back from my new Doc and he is great, open minded about subq injections(he had never heard of them), but I am not sure just how much "in depth" knowledge he has with regards to TRT(but it is better than most doctors which is virtually non existant). That became evident when I asked him if E2 became a problem would he have any problems prescribing a A'dex. His response was "why would a man need an estrogen inhibitor"?. So I informed him, and his polite repsonse was..."H'mm I would have to read up on that first." Fine by me, hope I don't need it anyway, at least he does not have a superiority complex.

He gave me a script for 200mg/cc of Test Propionate (I was not willing to argue for cypionate), needles, B12, and my Armour. I now have a "one stop doc" thank goodness.

This is great news. You know I think I reached my limit on Armour at 3 grains a day I went up 15 mgs 3 weeks ago after being at 3 grains for over 8 weeks. I had to stop it after 3 weeks my temps were going up over 99 some days I was at 99.4 And I am not sick. I am still doing 20 mgs of cortef. So now what I still have bad fatigue just to day was taking care of my wife she had her knee replaced last Tue I am out of breath and sweating like a pig just washing the cloches and folding them. I just don't know what is wrong sometimes I feel like just stopping the Armour and Cortef I don't feel any better on it. If I can't take more then 3 grains of Armour and I feel like this it's not working.

 

[Vforcer2]

This is great news. You know I think I reached my limit on Armour at 3 grains a day I went up 15 mgs 3 weeks ago after being at 3 grains for over 8 weeks. I had to stop it after 3 weeks my temps were going up over 99 some days I was at 99.4 And I am not sick. I am still doing 20 mgs of cortef. So now what I still have bad fatigue just to day was taking care of my wife she had her knee replaced last Tue I am out of breath and sweating like a pig just washing the cloches and folding them. I just don't know what is wrong sometimes I feel like just stopping the Armour and Cortef I don't feel any better on it. If I can't take more then 3 grains of Armour and I feel like this it's not working.

Phil, you don't know anyone using propionate subq do you? It appears to not be good for this.

 

[MacDonnell]

This is great news. You know I think I reached my limit on Armour at 3 grains a day I went up 15 mgs 3 weeks ago after being at 3 grains for over 8 weeks. I had to stop it after 3 weeks my temps were going up over 99 some days I was at 99.4 And I am not sick. I am still doing 20 mgs of cortef. So now what I still have bad fatigue just to day was taking care of my wife she had her knee replaced last Tue I am out of breath and sweating like a pig just washing the cloches and folding them. I just don't know what is wrong sometimes I feel like just stopping the Armour and Cortef I don't feel any better on it. If I can't take more then 3 grains of Armour and I feel like this it's not working.

Phil,

Who is the doctor you see?

Mac

 

[magic8989]

This is great news. You know I think I reached my limit on Armour at 3 grains a day I went up 15 mgs 3 weeks ago after being at 3 grains for over 8 weeks. I had to stop it after 3 weeks my temps were going up over 99 some days I was at 99.4 And I am not sick. I am still doing 20 mgs of cortef. So now what I still have bad fatigue just to day was taking care of my wife she had her knee replaced last Tue I am out of breath and sweating like a pig just washing the cloches and folding them. I just don't know what is wrong sometimes I feel like just stopping the Armour and Cortef I don't feel any better on it. If I can't take more then 3 grains of Armour and I feel like this it's not working.

Hmm. Have you thought about raising the cortef and or decreasing the armour?

 

[farmerjohn]

Marianco,
I am also a Shippen patient and his suggestion is to shoot into the belly fat. For me (unfortunately) that means bending over slightly as I sit in a chair to reveal a large roll of fatty skin to shoot into......and I can't be more than 20 lbs overweight. If you are not overweight you could pinch the skin to create a roll of fatty skin to shoot into in the belly. The alternate site is the upper thigh where there is usually ample fat. I am still experimenting with proper dosing and keeping E2 down but so far my worst E2 level was 60 pg/ml when I had a total T of 1135 ng/dl which was way too high. So once I get my dose right on the Tcyp I think the E2 should be in good shape. My goal total T level (set by Dr Shippen) is about 600 so if you extrapolate my E2 level down it would be about 30 or less since it probably goes down more the linearly.