"clomid blues"

[SwolevaDex]

I have a buddy that used to cycle back in the day (he was a professional athlete) and all the advice he's given me matches with advice from other experienced users as well as my own personal research both here on Meso and elsewhere online. One thing he talks about often is the "clomid blues" and always tells me STAY AWAY from clomid, opt for Nolva. He says guys who are prone to depression and anxiety can get suicidal, things like that.

Anybody here know anything or have any experience with this?

 

[cdoubleu]

I have a buddy that used to cycle back in the day (he was a professional athlete) and all the advice he's given me matches with advice from other experienced users as well as my own personal research both here on Meso and elsewhere online. One thing he talks about often is the "clomid blues" and always tells me STAY AWAY from clomid, opt for Nolva. He says guys who are prone to depression and anxiety can get suicidal, things like that.

Anybody here know anything or have any experience with this?

I personally really liked clomid but I believe I am the minority with that one.

 

[Big_poppa_Bren]

Same as above. I have always used clomid as part of my pct with no issues like the blues.

i do feel "emotional" at times on clomid.... But I put that down to coming off cycle.

I guess you have never tried clomid?

 

[SwolevaDex]

Nope, never have. Was thinking about stacking it with nolva and using hcg prior to pct

 

[Big_poppa_Bren]

HCG defiantly has its place as part of pct. but it must be used before actual pct starts as its suppressive. The way I run Hcg is...

Last 3 weeks of course I will use HCG. Wait 1 week for HCG to clear system (all other esters should also be clear) then begin clomid/ndex.

Others will run HCG throughout the cycle.


Give clomid a try.... I think everyone gets a little blue when coming off cycle. It's all part of the game.

Well.... Not for me now. I ran pct for the last time last year. Cruising from now on.

 

[SwolevaDex]

Yeah that's what I was planning, hcg 4 weeks total. Last 3 of cycle then a week beyond, another week of nothing then pct

 

[kream]

Yeah that's what I was planning, hcg 4 weeks total. Last 3 of cycle then a week beyond, another week of nothing then pct

Sort of what I'm pointing at.
Going last 3 weeks on and the 2 weeks off before pct.

 

[Dr JIM]

I have a buddy that used to cycle back in the day (he was a professional athlete) and all the advice he's given me matches with advice from other experienced users as well as my own personal research both here on Meso and elsewhere online. One thing he talks about often is the "clomid blues" and always tells me STAY AWAY from clomid, opt for Nolva. He says guys who are prone to depression and anxiety can get suicidal, things like that.

Anybody here know anything or have any experience with this?

Although some folk develop varying degrees of dysphoria with Clomid, establishing a cause and effect relationship to that of the drug itself, rather than the effect of low T, becomes much more difficult to quantify, especially on an individual basis.

Of course if you devoted a reasonable amount of time to "researching" legitimate on line medication sites withnrespect to the adverse effects of SERMs in general, you wouldn't have to listen to some of the baloney being propagated by your "friends", such as; suicide, depression or the creation of a generalized anxiety disorder.

I'm not suggesting Clomid is void of cognitive or mood related dysfunction but such effects are short lived and highly DOSE DEPENDENT.

The latter is quite relevant bc the SERM PCT dosage used by many BB is often excessive, especially when compared to bonafied clinical trials

Finally the frequent use of dual SERM PCT will only exacerbate the potential for adverse effects of single drug protocols.

 

[Dr JIM]

So what to do?

FIRST confirm appropriate PCT timing by obtaining post-cycle labs.

SECOND - begin therapy at that dosage proven effective in clinical trials

THIRD - continue PCT until HTPA recovery is established, manifested by a return of baseline pre-cycle gonadotropin and TT values.

 

[Dr JIM]

FOURTH
- using a SERM loading dose at roughly twice the scheduled dose is another viable option, IMO.

FIFTH
- CLOMID is generally considered the DOC for PCT, not that Tamoxifen is less effective or exhibits fewer adverse effects BUT simply bc Clomid has been well studied, on a comparative basis, as a means of enhancing gonadotropin secretion, in females and in MALES.

 

[SwolevaDex]

I appreciate your informative response - the reason I was asking was because most of what I've read online contradicts his statement, or at least how drastic he made the effects out to be. Mind you; I can't give so many details about him for the sake of his privacy, but he does have some significant experience with AAS; he's got an open contract with a major league sports team, and I generally trust his judgement.

It's worth noting that I have seen people citing studies here on Meso claiming Nolva to be more effective than clomid in other aspects, so being that I'm still new to this it's just been a lot of information to process and make decisions on.

I take it then, that you would advise against using both Nolva and Clomid together?

 

[Dr JIM]

1) It's worth noting that I have seen people citing studies

2) I take it then, that you would advise against using both Nolva and Clomid together?

How ironic, bc when I hear about "studies" that prove one SERM is superior to another and ask for the evidence to be posted,
silence fills the pages thereafter

Finally the frequent use of dual SERM PCT will only exacerbate the potential for adverse effects of single drug protocols.

For MOST Meso members single SERM therapy is more than sufficient IMO.

Most of the protocols that include dual SERM therapy have their origin in Meso's own Dr Scally.

To that end its important to know bc a LARGE percentage of those BB Dr S treated were HIGH END, long term AAS users, some had already failed routine PCT, the intent was to devise a "no fail protocol" (my interpretation) of sorts.

So yea in those patients high dose dual SERM PCT makes perfect sense, IMO.

However since few Meso members meet those criteria, I believe, and have found, PCT can be tailored in a less aggressive manner, thereby minimizing the adverse effects, yet still achieve an objective of HTPA recovery.

Incidentally I have also noted some of those with less AAS experience have ceased PCT entirely often citing the intolerable adverse effects of SERMS as the reason. (Many believed two SERMS at relatively high dosages were REQUIRED for effective PCT!)

I'm sure Michael Scally MD will opine if my summation of his dual PCT protocol was in error.

 

[Dr JIM]

Oh and incidentally misinformation about AAS/PEDs is as much a problem in all but the highest level of MAJOR LEAGUE PROFESSIONAL SPORTS.

 

[SwolevaDex]

Well that's why I can't really elaborate, if I identified his affiliations I could jeopardize his career as a professional athlete and that's really all I can say.

Since my planned cycle is very basic your advice has definitely helped in that I think I'll avoid stacking the two and opt for clomid only, though I do have both.

I forget where I saw that, there's a thread somewhere around here arguing the effectiveness of Nolva over Clomid, but then those threads seem to be everywhere online.

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to explain it so thoroughly

 

[Dr JIM]

It's not at all important for me to know what your sources are or were. Fact is I DONT want to know!

Heck what's best for you and all
others that use AAS/PEDS is to investigate and research the information requested themselves.

Thereafter return to Meso in search of clarification as needed. That's how to best proceed as an informed AAS user, basing your decisions on the evidence collated.

Good luck

 

[Millard]

I take it then, that you would advise against using both Nolva and Clomid together?

I'm sure Michael Scally MD will opine if my summation of his dual PCT protocol was in error.

Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together for PCT?

 

[Dr JIM]

Why not use both, bc of increased frequency of adverse effects, which has not been mentioned esp at the dosages frequently cited for PCT.

Moreover I've yet to see any study where the "benefit" of dual SERM therapy has been evaluated as a separate entity.

Finally the majority of studies on Tamoxifen involve rats and in some LH secretion actually decreased.

Perhaps the latter is one of the reasons MS suggested the addition of Tamo AFTER Novladex Tx was completed, in the final weeks of PCT.

Some folk didn't seem to buy that idea as it was to complicated with the end result combining both drugs.

Conciliator articulated a similar position as mine on Meso a while back.

Personally for the majority of Meso members, considering the well documented adverse effects of SERMS, I just don't believe or have found, more is better!

Regs
Jim

 

[SwolevaDex]

What would seem to support your opinion, is that most of the people I've seen telling newbies to use both simply said "better safe than sorry" or "just in case" which doesn't inspire much confidence considering how sensitive the human body can be

 

[Dr JIM]

Time for you to locate the data YOUR looking for!

But if your searching for some definitive "proof" it does not exist bc SERMS have never been studied or are they FDA approved as PCT!