Clomid Desensitization

[5millionbucks]

I heard something in the line with if you take clomid for long periods of time you can desensitize to it; is this true? Only reason why I am asking is people get prescribed low dose clomid for hrt and was wondering why some people are saying it causes desensitization if you run it for longer than 8 weeks.....

 

[The Terminator]

Maybe a small possibility it could happen to a small degree at the pituitary from what I read, but nothing to make it ineffective. Not even sure if it’s true, if it is the article mentioned taking tamoxifen would counteract this.

 

[Zaaz]

This is just my experience, but I got from 300 to 1100 serum test on 12.5mg of clomid/day. Over the next year, that slowly went down to 440 serum test. I switched to 25mg enclomiphene after running HCG at 250iu/day for 2 months and now my serum hovers around 850. I'm going to say it's possible that you get desensitized to it as I seemed to ahve, but I know of others who have been on for years and still respond well.

 

[Seppuku]

This is just my experience, but I got from 300 to 1100 serum test on 12.5mg of clomid/day. Over the next year, that slowly went down to 440 serum test. I switched to 25mg enclomiphene after running HCG at 250iu/day for 2 months and now my serum hovers around 850. I'm going to say it's possible that you get desensitized to it as I seemed to ahve, but I know of others who have been on for years and still respond well.

Zaaz - how did you feel on the daily hcg? Did you get any e2 problems at that dose and need an ai? I was taking clomid, 12.5mg eod for several years. This took me from the low 300's up to the low 600's after a few weeks. Several years on though (and after messing around with proviron), i was down to the low 300's again. Stopping everything and testing a month later, i was down to around 200ng/dl. Fast forward a couple of years to now, and i still can't get any higher than around 330ng/dl, and that's while on clomid again at 12.5mg eod. I've never used hcg before, but i've got some. What you've written's made me think it might be worth a go. Saying that though, the clomid still increases my lh levels so i'm not sure if it'll be any benefit over my own lh.

 

[Zaaz]

What kind of LH numbers are you getting?
I'd give it a try. The hcg will prime your testicles to respond better to the LH.

Also your clomid dose seems a little low. Usually 12.5ED is on the lower end and doses get spread further only for the lucky few whose HPTA restart and gradually taper off the pills. For the rest of us, 12.5-25mg is a common. As an aside, I mistyped my enclomiphene dose above, it's 12.5mgED which is about equivalent to 25mg clomidED.

I didn't feel great on hcg only. No e2 issues but I tend to have high shbg which locks up e2.

 

[Seppuku]

What kind of LH numbers are you getting?
I'd give it a try. The hcg will prime your testicles to respond better to the LH.

Also your clomid dose seems a little low. Usually 12.5ED is on the lower end and doses get spread further only for the lucky few whose HPTA restart and gradually taper off the pills. For the rest of us, 12.5-25mg is a common. As an aside, I mistyped my enclomiphene dose above, it's 12.5mgED which is about equivalent to 25mg clomidED.

I didn't feel great on hcg only. No e2 issues but I tend to have high shbg which locks up e2.

Hi again Zaaz. I agree the dose i use is pretty low. I tend to get a low mood if i take much more, i did try 25mg eod for a few doses once and didn't like the low mood it gave me. Saying that, even on that low a dose my lh was near top of the range. This last blood draw, i'd actually only been taking 12.5mg twice a week, and there was a gap a 5 days when the blood was taken. That put my lh at 4.87 iu/l on a range of 1.7 - 8.6 iu/l, with a total test level of 10.5nmol/l (303 ng/d). So i'm at a point now where i just can't seem to decide for myself what to do - either just leave it and hope over time it improves (been doing that for over two years though), or something else. The NHS won't touch it (i'm in the UK) as when they tested me in Dec i was 11.7nmol/l (337ng/dl). I have everything to self trt if need be. I just keep hoping i'll find something i've missed which might help me get back to the 20nmol (600ng/dl) that i got when i started clomid.

 

[Zaaz]

I'd try enclomiphene in your shoes. Clomid has a 60:40 split of two steroisomers: zuclomiphene and enclomiphene. You really only want the enclomiphene isomer but the problem is that zuclomiphene has a much higher half life. Over time you end up with zuc levels being much higher than enclomiphene. See: serum levels of enclomiphene and zuclomiphene for hypogonadism. Zuc has estrogenic effects which may be the cause of your mood. I certainly felt weird on clomid 12.5/day. Much better these days.
Also your LH isn't that high. It's middle of the range so you have room to get it higher.
I'm no expert so other members will have better info. I believe @Broskie is on clomid treatment. Maybe he'd be kind enough to chime in.

 

[Seppuku]

I'd try enclomiphene in your shoes. Clomid has a 60:40 split of two steroisomers: zuclomiphene and enclomiphene. You really only want the enclomiphene isomer but the problem is that zuclomiphene has a much higher half life. Over time you end up with zuc levels being much higher than enclomiphene. See: serum levels of enclomiphene and zuclomiphene for hypogonadism. Zuc has estrogenic effects which may be the cause of your mood. I certainly felt weird on clomid 12.5/day. Much better these days.
Also your LH isn't that high. It's middle of the range so you have room to get it higher.
I'm no expert so other members will have better info. I believe @Broskie is on clomid treatment. Maybe he'd be kind enough to chime in.

Thanks again for your input Zaaz. Regarding pure enclomiphene, it's something i've been trying to obtain for ages now, not that easy though. I bought some in liquid form about 2 years ago from a european peptide shop. After i'd bought it i read terrible reviews from others who'd bought the same one, who all claimed blood work showed no affect on lh so was bunk. There's a brand called en-clofert from India. I've dug around but had trouble finding anywhere selling it, at least that i'd trust buying from. Plus, there's some debate as to whether en-clofert actually is 100% enclomiphene. You'd think thiugh it would be sold everywhere - the shops i buy clomid from sell that actual brand, but only the regular clomid version. It would be great to try though, i'd love to know what my balls would put out if like you said i got my lh levels much higher. I don't fancy trying it with regular clomid though (or nolva come to that)

 

[Broskie]

I'd try enclomiphene in your shoes. Clomid has a 60:40 split of two steroisomers: zuclomiphene and enclomiphene. You really only want the enclomiphene isomer but the problem is that zuclomiphene has a much higher half life. Over time you end up with zuc levels being much higher than enclomiphene. See: serum levels of enclomiphene and zuclomiphene for hypogonadism. Zuc has estrogenic effects which may be the cause of your mood. I certainly felt weird on clomid 12.5/day. Much better these days.
Also your LH isn't that high. It's middle of the range so you have room to get it higher.
I'm no expert so other members will have better info. I believe @Broskie is on clomid treatment. Maybe he'd be kind enough to chime in.

Hey, yes I have been taking clomid 50mg daily for multiple years. It continues to do it’s job for me, priority one being the preservation of fertility. For me personally I have not experienced any of the long term side affects other users state they feel when on longer than 6 months. However I have no idea to what degree genetics plays a part in my experiences though. My endocrinologist has stated that he has maintained plenty of men on a protocol of 50mg EOD or 50mg ED in the pursuit of increasing fertility. I can attest to the notion that some level of desensitization occurs in most individuals. I was bumped from 50EOD to 50 ED about a year ago but have not felt like the treatment has continued to be less effective since then. I typically maintain just below middle of the road levels for LH and FSH and about the same for serum testosterone levels, which is sufficient for me to function normally. Your genetics will ultimately determine your response IMO. The best path is simple trial and error with bloodwork. Some of the men my endocrinologist see are on doses at or exceeding 150mg daily with an incredibly sub par response. When my current supply ends I plan to switch to toremifene, a “newer” second generation drug that while slightly less potent, has shown a lot of promise as a SERM with a much milder accompanying side effect list. It is also one of, if not the only SERM which has a positive impact on lipids which is incredibly promising. If you are not a responder to clomid it’s probably not a good choice for you.