E2 Management Help (With Bloods)

[Hissingchain912]

Currently suspecting low e2, and am experiencing intense headaches 24/7, along with brain fog and irritability.

-October 2022 results I was running 400 Test E (split into EoD injections) and 0.25mg Adex EoD. About 18-20% bodyfat here.
-November 2022: still 400mg/wk Test E split EoD, and 0.5mg Adex ED. Down to about 16% BF here.
-April 2023: 750mg/wk Test E (split into EoD injections), 25mg Var/day and 0.5mg Adex ED. Was up around 20-22% body fat here. Was surprised to see that at a fairly higher BF% and nearly double the test, that e2 was fairly similar to November.

Currently, at about 12% BF, looking to continue down to 8-9% over the next 6 weeks or so. Upped test from cruise dose to 480mg/wk 6 weeks ago, and added in 450mg/wk of Mast E just over 2 weeks ago. Was running 0.25mg/day Adex when first upping test, and bumped to 0.5mg a day about a week before beginning Mast. Possible low E symptoms have been ramping up over the past week or so.

My question is: is it possible that my aromatase expression changed drastically enough when getting as lean as I have to skew my usual needed adex dose? Is this just going to continue to show itself more as I continue losing more adipose tissue? Or, is it more plausible that whatever Mast's effects on estrogen receptors are have begun and I am quite sensitive to these effects, or possibly a mix of both?

Also, when should I get bloodwork next, should I wait 3-4 weeks longer until Mast reaches peak serum levels as some individuals claim it suppressing their serum e2?

Most importantly, what should I do with my adex dosing starting tomorrow morning? Due to previously being a very high aromatizer, I'm not sure if titrating down or stopping Adex completely for a time is the best move, especially when accounting for the presence of Mast.

 

[Vanargandar]

Most importantly, what should I do with my adex dosing starting tomorrow morning? Due to previously being a very high aromatizer, I'm not sure if titrating down or stopping Adex completely for a time is the best move, especially when accounting for the presence of Mast.

Increase your Test (550 p/w Test 450 p/w Mast OR 550 p/w Test 350 p/w Mast) and cut out the Arimidex. Retest bloods in 2 weeks.

You should feel better within a few days after cutting out the Anastrozole completely.

 

[Hissingchain912]

Increase your Test (550 p/w Test 450 p/w Mast OR 550 p/w Test 350 p/w Mast) and cut out the Arimidex. Retest bloods in 2 weeks.

You should feel better within a few days after cutting out the Anastrozole completely.

Based on my previous levels of aromatization, could cutting out adex for 2 weeks be as large of a mistake as I think it could be? Considering running 400 Test had me above 150pg/mL while still running some adex, I'm hesitant to attempt this. I also just don't have enough first-hand experience to know just how much of an impact a lower BF% and the addition of Mast is having on my aromatase expression and estrogen receptor activation.

 

[Vanargandar]

Based on my previous levels of aromatization, could cutting out adex for 2 weeks be as large of a mistake as I think it could be? Considering running 400 Test had me above 150pg/mL while still running some adex, I'm hesitant to attempt this. I also just don't have enough first-hand experience to know just how much of an impact a lower BF% and the addition of Mast is having on my aromatase expression and estrogen receptor activation.

The combination of Mast and Adex are what's crashing your E2. Taking 0.5mg of Adex a day is A LOT. What I posted above is simply my advice and what I would do personally. I'm sure others will have different opinions.

Another option is cutting down to 0.25 Adex M/W/F.

There are also people that have had success with reducing high E2 with daily injections.

 

[Hissingchain912]

The combination of Mast and Adex are what's crashing your E2. Taking 0.5mg of Adex a day is A LOT. What I posted above is simply my advice and what I would do personally. I'm sure others will have different opinions.

Another option is cutting down to 0.25 Adex M/W/F.

There are also people that have had success with reducing high E2 with daily injections.

I am actually doing daily injections at the moment. But yes, I am aware that 0.5mg/day is indeed a lot, especially when taking into consideration current compound dosages. I will take your suggestion and cut out Adex and change dosage to 550/420 Test/Mast (maximum Mast I can fit in slin pin with test dose), and hold out on Adex unless clearly necessary. Blood panel already purchased, will be calling to make 2wk appt tomorrow.

 

[120nmol]

What helped me to raise crashed e2 is a shot of test propionate , 150mg kicked in my aromatization like a mfk.. from almost not detectable e2 to 380pmol in a week..

 

[MrUniverse]

there's only one right thing to do, and that's to be done now.
Bloodwork!

you can speculate all you want on the levels of your hormones and you can double or stop the ai, raise or lower the testosterone you inject, etc etc... but without having the numbers through bloodwork it's like rolling a dice and relying on chance.

if you have a real problem and you want to solve it, run to do the bloodwork.
Then make a decision about what to do with the things you're getting into.

alternatively, as already mentioned, flip a coin and decide based on that result.

good luck

 

[Hissingchain912]

there's only one right thing to do, and that's to be done now.
Bloodwork!

you can speculate all you want on the levels of your hormones and you can double or stop the ai, raise or lower the testosterone you inject, etc etc... but without having the numbers through bloodwork it's like rolling a dice and relying on chance.

if you have a real problem and you want to solve it, run to do the bloodwork.
Then make a decision about what to do with the things you're getting into.

alternatively, as already mentioned, flip a coin and decide based on that result.

good luck

Where I'm located, the earliest I can realistically get blood drawn is about a week, with another 3-4 days until receiving result for LC/MS panels.

Would keeping the protocol unchanged, and continue suffering until results come back to confirm suspicions be the best course of action, or would making an actionable change and waiting until serum levels should theoretically be leveling out enough before pulling bloods to get an accurate picture be more optimal?

Of course I agree that getting bloodwork today would be the only true way to know how to proceed, but that just isn't in the cards for me unfortunately.

 

[Vanargandar]

Where I'm located, the earliest I can realistically get blood drawn is about a week, with another 3-4 days until receiving result for LC/MS panels.

Would keeping the protocol unchanged, and continue suffering until results come back to confirm suspicions be the best course of action, or would making an actionable change and waiting until serum levels should theoretically be leveling out enough before pulling bloods to get an accurate picture be more optimal?

Of course I agree that getting bloodwork today would be the only true way to know how to proceed, but that just isn't in the cards for me unfortunately.

You're already suffering, so making a change now seems to be the most reasonable thing to do. Worst case scenario you're a little worse off, best case nothing happens but you know what to do when your bloodwork comes back.

Are you located in the US?

 

[Hissingchain912]

You're already suffering, so making a change now seems to be the most reasonable thing to do. Worst case scenario you're a little worse off, best case nothing happens but you know what to do when your bloodwork comes back.

Are you located in the US?

Yup. I technically can get blood work sooner if that’s why you’re asking, but the draw fee alone for every location near me is $80+. The one phlebotomy location that has a $10 draw fee has odd hours that don’t coincide well with work, and they take a bit to answer their phone. I’m going through UltaLabs currently

And yes I agree, I can at least somewhat function with higher E2, and current symptoms are effecting my work which is why I skipped out on Adex this morning and used the changed Test/Mast doses discussed earlier.

I guess I have one more question. With Mast in the equation, what general range of e2 should I be targeting? I’ve always felt best in the 50-60 range on Test only at similar total androgen loads than I am running now. Should I expect that to remain true, or should I allow my e2 serum levels to climb a bit higher due to supposed estrogen receptor activity of Mast?

 

[Type-IIx]

Currently suspecting low e2, and am experiencing intense headaches 24/7, along with brain fog and irritability.
View attachment 264055
-October 2022 results I was running 400 Test E (split into EoD injections) and 0.25mg Adex EoD. About 18-20% bodyfat here.
-November 2022: still 400mg/wk Test E split EoD, and 0.5mg Adex ED. Down to about 16% BF here.
-April 2023: 750mg/wk Test E (split into EoD injections), 25mg Var/day and 0.5mg Adex ED. Was up around 20-22% body fat here. Was surprised to see that at a fairly higher BF% and nearly double the test, that e2 was fairly similar to November.

Currently, at about 12% BF, looking to continue down to 8-9% over the next 6 weeks or so. Upped test from cruise dose to 480mg/wk 6 weeks ago, and added in 450mg/wk of Mast E just over 2 weeks ago. Was running 0.25mg/day Adex when first upping test, and bumped to 0.5mg a day about a week before beginning Mast. Possible low E symptoms have been ramping up over the past week or so.

My question is: is it possible that my aromatase expression changed drastically enough when getting as lean as I have to skew my usual needed adex dose? Is this just going to continue to show itself more as I continue losing more adipose tissue? Or, is it more plausible that whatever Mast's effects on estrogen receptors are have begun and I am quite sensitive to these effects, or possibly a mix of both?

Also, when should I get bloodwork next, should I wait 3-4 weeks longer until Mast reaches peak serum levels as some individuals claim it suppressing their serum e2?

Most importantly, what should I do with my adex dosing starting tomorrow morning? Due to previously being a very high aromatizer, I'm not sure if titrating down or stopping Adex completely for a time is the best move, especially when accounting for the presence of Mast.

These symptoms you describe are not low E2 symptoms. They seem more neurological if anything, and line up with some well known common side effects of anastrozole, e.g., headaches occur with 9 - 13% prevalence, hot flashes 12 - 36% prevalence, fatigue 16 - 19%, depression (i.e., irritability & brain fog) 5 - 13%.

Your aromatase expression hasn't changed meaningfully, but the antiestrogenic (tissue-level blockade of estrogen uptake & antigonadotropic) effects of Masteron are equivalent to those of Primo.

For the purpose of answering several of your questions, I point you to this article, where Mast can stand in the place of Primo for this topic as the two are functionally equivalent with respect to estrogenicity:

Primobolan / Equipoise Crashed my E2 – Help!

Understand the complex interaction of Primobolan and Equipoise with estrogen levels, symptoms of low estrogens, and practical decision-making strategies for managing these effects in AAS users.

thinksteroids.com

 

[Juicedhead]

am i reading that bloodwork wrong it says your e2 is high ?

 

[Hissingchain912]

am i reading that bloodwork wrong it says your e2 is high ?

Those are all past bloodworks to show my typical e2 at different test/Adex doses (so yes they are all high).

 

[Hissingchain912]

These symptoms you describe are not low E2 symptoms. They seem more neurological if anything, and line up with some well known common side effects of anastrozole, e.g., headaches occur with 9 - 13% prevalence, hot flashes 12 - 36% prevalence, fatigue 16 - 19%, depression (i.e., irritability & brain fog) 5 - 13%.

Your aromatase expression hasn't changed meaningfully, but the antiestrogenic (tissue-level blockade of estrogen uptake & antigonadotropic) effects of Masteron are equivalent to those of Primo.

For the purpose of answering several of your questions, I point you to this article, where Mast can stand in the place of Primo for this topic as the two are functionally equivalent with respect to estrogenicity:

Primobolan / Equipoise Crashed my E2 – Help!

Understand the complex interaction of Primobolan and Equipoise with estrogen levels, symptoms of low estrogens, and practical decision-making strategies for managing these effects in AAS users.

thinksteroids.com

This makes sense, and is why I’ve never been a fan of adjusting AI based on symptoms alone as there are just too many variables to account for. But the symptom profile of anastrozole does indeed fit.

Do you know if the symptoms you provided are due to low e2 from anastrozole use, or were the symptoms directly from the compound itself? I walkways assumed the former, but I could surely be wrong. If it is the latter, would switching to aromasin and dialing in e2 with blood work be a viable option?

 

[MrUniverse]

Where I'm located, the earliest I can realistically get blood drawn is about a week, with another 3-4 days until receiving result for LC/MS panels.

Would keeping the protocol unchanged, and continue suffering until results come back to confirm suspicions be the best course of action, or would making an actionable change and waiting until serum levels should theoretically be leveling out enough before pulling bloods to get an accurate picture be more optimal?

Of course I agree that getting bloodwork today would be the only true way to know how to proceed, but that just isn't in the cards for me unfortunately.

my advice is to change nothing and do the bloodwork.
if you start adding/subtracting things the bloodwork you do will have no meaning because its like taking a picture of a moving car, you will have a picture on the day of the bloodwork but your estrogen levels will fluctuate

 

[Vanargandar]

Yup. I technically can get blood work sooner if that’s why you’re asking, but the draw fee alone for every location near me is $80+. The one phlebotomy location that has a $10 draw fee has odd hours that don’t coincide well with work, and they take a bit to answer their phone. I’m going through UltaLabs currently

And yes I agree, I can at least somewhat function with higher E2, and current symptoms are effecting my work which is why I skipped out on Adex this morning and used the changed Test/Mast doses discussed earlier.

I guess I have one more question. With Mast in the equation, what general range of e2 should I be targeting? I’ve always felt best in the 50-60 range on Test only at similar total androgen loads than I am running now. Should I expect that to remain true, or should I allow my e2 serum levels to climb a bit higher due to supposed estrogen receptor activity of Mast?

1) Not sure exactly where you're getting your bloodwork or the requisition, but I'd check out my thread: Basic/Affordable/Comprehensive Bloodwork

2) Listen to @Type-IIx

3) If 50-60 is where you feel good at, aim for that. My assumption is that being at 50-60 on a similar androgen load vs. being at 50-60 on different androgens isn't going to have a different effect. But yes, having your E2 levels climb within a "normal" range will most likely make you have a better sense of well-being. Just to reiterate, if this were me in your situation, I would cut the Adex out altogether, or at the very least, cut down to 0.25mg M/W/F.

 

[Type-IIx]

This makes sense, and is why I’ve never been a fan of adjusting AI based on symptoms alone as there are just too many variables to account for. But the symptom profile of anastrozole does indeed fit.

Do you know if the symptoms you provided are due to low e2 from anastrozole use, or were the symptoms directly from the compound itself? I walkways assumed the former, but I could surely be wrong. If it is the latter, would switching to aromasin and dialing in e2 with blood work be a viable option?

I believe that they are drug effects and not a consequence of reduced E2. The linked article enumerates several symptoms of low E2 (arthralgia/joint pain, bone loss, sexual dysfunction, etc.)

Exemestane is one option, it's a steroidal AI & its primary metabolite is an active androgen. It comes with some considerations including cross-reactivity in nonsensitive estradiol assays.

 

[Hissingchain912]

Update:
I changed my dose from Test/mast 480/450 to 550/420, and after dropping the adex for 3 days, I resumed at 0.25mg per day, down from my previous 0.5mg/day dose.

I assumed that the slight change in dosages, mixed with adex's supposed fast method of action, I assumed serum E2 levels should have been somewhat stable at 2 weeks after these changes. Bloodwork came back and showed an E2 level of 41 pg/mL, and I'm feeling quite good now as well.

For reference, in my previous experience using test only, I have a few formulas in excel that takes into account serum test levels based on dosage and ester length, then aromatization rate, along with inhibition based on adex dosing. The coefficients for these formulas had this netting me quite accurate results, with both serum testosterone levels and E2 levels never being more than 10% off of my estimates.

Now, with Masteron in the mix, I was unsure just how effective it was at suppressing aromatization, as I have yet to come across before and after bloodworks with the only change being the addition of mast. Using the above formula, my E2 would have been within 10% variance of 95 pg/mL. The simple addition of Mast seems to have suppressed my aromatization rate by over 50%.

If I do end up pushing dosages higher in the future, would it be a safe bet to keep the current ratio of Test/Mast and adex dose to begin with?