Sorry for long post. Want to be thorough and appreciate any thoughts, insights, general comments, etc.
Overview:
36M - long term AAS user (10 years) trying to regain fertility. If it matters, 5’10, 210 pounds, BF 7-8%.
Background:
Started with an Endo. Went for sperm analysis and results came back ZERO. He referred me to a Urologist. Not sure if it matters but both are NYC doctors from a top tier Medical Group. I mention this because that is obviously a lot different from a doc out of a HRT clinic. Interested to hear people’s views on this. My wife insisted I go the most “reputable” doctors but that may not mean they know bodybuilders - not exactly their typical patients. I initially wanted to go the opposite (or follow a Dave Palumbo type protocol which maybe I should have)...
Timeline (4 months ago)
After the sperm results I dropped to a “cruise” dose of test a few months ago (250/week). Urologist had me get lab work done before first visit.
Lab results 1:
Test: over 1500
Estrogen: 18
FSH and LH - zero
Note: also zero sperm count from sperm analysis the same week.
Note - first Test reading probably high because of test E half life and I was only a couple weeks removed from a 750 test / 500 Mast cycle.
Doc put me on HCG (told me 2500 3x/week once I was off exogenous Test but to start lower and increase only once I dropped the Test). I followed advice and started tapering down the test and took about half the prescribed HCG.
2nd lab results - 3 months ago:
test 889
estrogen: 8
LH/FSH: *STILL ZERO*
1 month into HCG 1500 3x/week as instructed.
3rd lab result - 2 months ago
test: 1,029
estrogen: **BELOW 5**
FSH 0.5
LH: 0 (WTF!?)
Not sure why Test went up. Maybe bc of of timing since last injection or the HCG.
Dropped test completely 3 weeks ago - felt TERRIBLE. Zero libido, chronic fatigue, brain fog, etc.
4th lab result - 2 weeks ago
test 412
estrogen 6.8
FSH 0.4
LH 0.3
Been on hcg for 3+ months now (those results are each about 4 weeks apart). increases HCG to 2000 3x/week about 3 weeks ago.
**I dropped all test for 2 weeks before that last reading but I can’t deal with the depression and other symptoms for much longer - I feel miserable.***
I’ve also started adding HMG 35 3x/week (not prescribed by my urologist - just my own attempt to speed up fertility recovery). I am about to double it to 75 3x/week - based on Palumbo and other similar “fertility protocols” on the boards.
Question 1: Any reason for the consistent low estrogen? Anyone else experience that? I’m NOT using any SERMS or AIs. Even with test levels over 1500 it was ONLY 18. Every other reading is single digits!
I’m wondering if it’s contributing to my constant lack of energy / libido? Surprised my T was above 400 but I’m guessing that’s a result of the HCG.
Next Steps - PLEASE HELP:
**PRIORITY 1: get my wife pregnant.
**PRIORITY 2 - get back to not feeling like absolute crap.
**PRIORITY 3 - once pregnant get back “on” (really want to blast again and regain lost mass and strength). This is the longest cruise in 10 years (feel free to give me crap about spending more time cruising than blasting but clearly I’m learning my lesson the hard way) and I’m not handling the last few weeks of being completely off well. Usual cruises are 8-12 weeks but never “blasted” over 2 grams.
I’m maintaining mass better than I thought but gym sessions suck, strength is really dropping, motivation is gone, etc. I know there are lots of opinions on cleaning out / taking breaks but, aside from fertility issues, I’m perfectly happy being on TRT forever. [Side Note - all my bloodwork is currently healthy (during blasts my “only” bad markers have been HDL and BP and both are better than ever right now - even though I feel like jumping off a bridge)]. If I could go back in time I wish I prioritized hcg/pct instead of cruises but too late for that.
I told my doc about my severe depression/lack of energy and he suggested giving me exogenous test (cyp 125 mg /week) but it would probably slow down progress so I declined (I have my own test anytime I want and may opt to add some back in).
Question: any examples of complete shutdown recovery without coming off completely?
I don’t think I can hold out much longer - this feels like a heroine addiction going cold turkey except my symptoms are not showing signs of improving, That said. my wife has been dying to get pregnant for so long. I’d really appreciate insight. Pregnancy has to be my priority- I just really want to know if there is some type of middle ground solution (i.e. making it work with some type of TRT to get out of this misery).
Lot to digest there but really appreciate any feedback. Urologist is going to add “Recombinant FSH” to stimulate the sertoli cells once I show signs of intra testicular testosterone but I really want to get this over with sooner. I’m less interested in regaining natural HPTA function and solely interested in getting wife pregnant (hence my self prescribed hmg) and I’m interested in anyone else’s thoughts. I’ve been open with my doctors (endo and urologist) to this point with the exception of my recent HMG add on.
I’m also losing strength and muscle and it’s not helping my depression. I haven’t stepped on a scale bc it will not help my mental state but I’m sure I’m 5-10 pounds down (maybe off-set with some fat gains). Any insight much appreciated. Checking my sperm count again later this week but with LH and FSH so low not sure how optimistic I am.
Also, the doc keeps testing pregnenolone/progesterone. This is how he is gauging whether I have “ITT”. All my readings have been 0 (below minimum measurable threshold). How long does that take? That sounds like a full HPTA recovery. Again, late 30s with 10 years of use. Any idea how long that takes? This whole experience is a total eye opener - fertility was not something I worried about when I was 25 but now I’m seriously concerned about how reversible this long term damage really is.
Thanks for reading. Any ideas/experience/comments appreciated (even criticisms if it’s constructive). I tried to highlight my priorities but obviously have a lot of questions in there.
Sorry for spelling and disorganized - writing this from my iPhone.
Overview:
36M - long term AAS user (10 years) trying to regain fertility. If it matters, 5’10, 210 pounds, BF 7-8%.
Background:
Started with an Endo. Went for sperm analysis and results came back ZERO. He referred me to a Urologist. Not sure if it matters but both are NYC doctors from a top tier Medical Group. I mention this because that is obviously a lot different from a doc out of a HRT clinic. Interested to hear people’s views on this. My wife insisted I go the most “reputable” doctors but that may not mean they know bodybuilders - not exactly their typical patients. I initially wanted to go the opposite (or follow a Dave Palumbo type protocol which maybe I should have)...
Timeline (4 months ago)
After the sperm results I dropped to a “cruise” dose of test a few months ago (250/week). Urologist had me get lab work done before first visit.
Lab results 1:
Test: over 1500
Estrogen: 18
FSH and LH - zero
Note: also zero sperm count from sperm analysis the same week.
Note - first Test reading probably high because of test E half life and I was only a couple weeks removed from a 750 test / 500 Mast cycle.
Doc put me on HCG (told me 2500 3x/week once I was off exogenous Test but to start lower and increase only once I dropped the Test). I followed advice and started tapering down the test and took about half the prescribed HCG.
2nd lab results - 3 months ago:
test 889
estrogen: 8
LH/FSH: *STILL ZERO*
1 month into HCG 1500 3x/week as instructed.
3rd lab result - 2 months ago
test: 1,029
estrogen: **BELOW 5**
FSH 0.5
LH: 0 (WTF!?)
Not sure why Test went up. Maybe bc of of timing since last injection or the HCG.
Dropped test completely 3 weeks ago - felt TERRIBLE. Zero libido, chronic fatigue, brain fog, etc.
4th lab result - 2 weeks ago
test 412
estrogen 6.8
FSH 0.4
LH 0.3
Been on hcg for 3+ months now (those results are each about 4 weeks apart). increases HCG to 2000 3x/week about 3 weeks ago.
**I dropped all test for 2 weeks before that last reading but I can’t deal with the depression and other symptoms for much longer - I feel miserable.***
I’ve also started adding HMG 35 3x/week (not prescribed by my urologist - just my own attempt to speed up fertility recovery). I am about to double it to 75 3x/week - based on Palumbo and other similar “fertility protocols” on the boards.
Question 1: Any reason for the consistent low estrogen? Anyone else experience that? I’m NOT using any SERMS or AIs. Even with test levels over 1500 it was ONLY 18. Every other reading is single digits!
I’m wondering if it’s contributing to my constant lack of energy / libido? Surprised my T was above 400 but I’m guessing that’s a result of the HCG.
Next Steps - PLEASE HELP:
**PRIORITY 1: get my wife pregnant.
**PRIORITY 2 - get back to not feeling like absolute crap.
**PRIORITY 3 - once pregnant get back “on” (really want to blast again and regain lost mass and strength). This is the longest cruise in 10 years (feel free to give me crap about spending more time cruising than blasting but clearly I’m learning my lesson the hard way) and I’m not handling the last few weeks of being completely off well. Usual cruises are 8-12 weeks but never “blasted” over 2 grams.
I’m maintaining mass better than I thought but gym sessions suck, strength is really dropping, motivation is gone, etc. I know there are lots of opinions on cleaning out / taking breaks but, aside from fertility issues, I’m perfectly happy being on TRT forever. [Side Note - all my bloodwork is currently healthy (during blasts my “only” bad markers have been HDL and BP and both are better than ever right now - even though I feel like jumping off a bridge)]. If I could go back in time I wish I prioritized hcg/pct instead of cruises but too late for that.
I told my doc about my severe depression/lack of energy and he suggested giving me exogenous test (cyp 125 mg /week) but it would probably slow down progress so I declined (I have my own test anytime I want and may opt to add some back in).
Question: any examples of complete shutdown recovery without coming off completely?
I don’t think I can hold out much longer - this feels like a heroine addiction going cold turkey except my symptoms are not showing signs of improving, That said. my wife has been dying to get pregnant for so long. I’d really appreciate insight. Pregnancy has to be my priority- I just really want to know if there is some type of middle ground solution (i.e. making it work with some type of TRT to get out of this misery).
Lot to digest there but really appreciate any feedback. Urologist is going to add “Recombinant FSH” to stimulate the sertoli cells once I show signs of intra testicular testosterone but I really want to get this over with sooner. I’m less interested in regaining natural HPTA function and solely interested in getting wife pregnant (hence my self prescribed hmg) and I’m interested in anyone else’s thoughts. I’ve been open with my doctors (endo and urologist) to this point with the exception of my recent HMG add on.
I’m also losing strength and muscle and it’s not helping my depression. I haven’t stepped on a scale bc it will not help my mental state but I’m sure I’m 5-10 pounds down (maybe off-set with some fat gains). Any insight much appreciated. Checking my sperm count again later this week but with LH and FSH so low not sure how optimistic I am.
Also, the doc keeps testing pregnenolone/progesterone. This is how he is gauging whether I have “ITT”. All my readings have been 0 (below minimum measurable threshold). How long does that take? That sounds like a full HPTA recovery. Again, late 30s with 10 years of use. Any idea how long that takes? This whole experience is a total eye opener - fertility was not something I worried about when I was 25 but now I’m seriously concerned about how reversible this long term damage really is.
Thanks for reading. Any ideas/experience/comments appreciated (even criticisms if it’s constructive). I tried to highlight my priorities but obviously have a lot of questions in there.
Sorry for spelling and disorganized - writing this from my iPhone.